Long term progression

[lions2k9]

Regardless of anything, the concept of having an awesome year statistically but not being rewarded for it properly is dumb design. If a rookie player is rated 76 overall and rushes for 728 yards, has 81 catches for 826 yards and has 13 total touchdowns.. what should his rating be the next season in Madden? Would you guess 88 overall?

Alvin Kamara jumped from 76 to an 88 overall from Madden 18 to Madden 19. Those are his stats listed above. I have Kerryon Johnson in his rookie year, I exceed all of those stats easily, win ROY, and the next year he can’t even be an 80 overall. I don’t care what kind of system of progression gets put in place, I just want it to mirror how the Madden team would rate that player the following season if that’s what he accomplished the year previous.

[ranger91]

I've never understood the desire for games to have progression follow production. I've always felt production should follow progression? You don't put up stats, then get better overall.

A player could put up big stats due to schemes, randomness, or talent around him (great O-line blocking for HB, etc.). Players all the time have one great year, then never follow up on it. And some positions aren't easy to judge based on simple stats. Often the CB with high interceptions will win awards in Madden, but often the league's top CB doesn't always rack up INTs. Great DT (based on scheme) don't pick up a lot of tackles or sacks necessarily.

Guess I'm just saying, the whole concept of progression follow production in franchise mode seems odd to me. Progression should be based on in-game factors such as player talent potential, work ethic, and coaching. Production should just be a by-product of what of progression or regression occurs. I shouldn't be trying to force my players to put up big stats to get a better rating, that seems odd to me.

I wish work ethic type player traits were a scoutable and coaching mattered more. It'd make it interesting scouting a player that kills it at the combine, but has a questionable work ethic.

[canes21]

Quote: Originally Posted by vstro

While this post does a great job further explaining your thought process I'm still not 100% agreeing with you on everything. I'm really curious how you think progression should be represented if it's not going to be based off of production.

I'm not him, but why not go with a system where a player's potential, work ethic, and the coaching they receive are the big driving factors while veterans on the team and other small factors can drive progression as well.


Out of the Park doesn't do production based progression, it does it like it is done in real life. Each player has a scouting report for their current skills and a report for what their potential looks to be. Some scouts are more accurate than others. As players age their reports get more accurate and eventually veterans who have enough exposure in the league practically have unanimous reports since it is clear how good they are.


I'd much rather have a system that isn't production based and instead just has reports on everyone so we could draft guys with high ceilings and over the years we'd see if they ever panned out or if they were busts. At least then we'd have a realistic bust system since it'd take years to see and you'd also get a more realistic breakout player system where a guy that wasn't seen by scouts as someone who would reach all-star caliber skills, but he just kept progression past what everyone expected.


Of course, if a user didn't want to go all Fog of War and wanted exact ratings they could always have that as an option. Out of the Park does that, they have options where scouting reports have 6 options. Exact ratings so you know how good they are now and project to be exactly, then 5 other options ranging from Somewhat Accurate to Highly Accurate.



Real life has a true fog of war feel to projecting players and it is why the draft is so fun. I'd love for Madden to eventually get a system in place to replicate this.

[GameBreaker35]

Quote: Originally Posted by vstro

While this post does a great job further explaining your thought process I'm still not 100% agreeing with you on everything. I'm really curious how you think progression should be represented if it's not going to be based off of production.

I always chuckle at discussions on this topic because people have conflated Madden yearly ratings adjustments with franchise progression. Seriously, think about this for a second. Progression is really just quantifying player improvement. Well, how do real NFL players improve? Hint: They don’t put up stats and then improve.

The answer: they execute thousands of individual reps in practice under the direction of world class coaching, study the playbook and watch hours of game film, and spend years trying their body for endurance and strength. In a nutshell, they train and practice over a period of time to improve which may lead to better stats. This process can be replicated in a video game as simple or as complex as they want to make it - and it still be miles better than stat based progression.

When madden rates players, especially newer players, they have no idea that player’s ability outside of combine measurables. Those players are raw talent, and it will be their dedication to honing their craft - or god given talent in many cases - how good they turn out to be. Madden ratings can’t know these this things. Yearly improvements in individual ratings are “corrections” based on the rating gurus perception of how “good” that player actually is and not an indicator of progression.

[ranger91]

Quote: Originally Posted by canes21

I'm not him, but why not go with a system where a player's potential, work ethic, and the coaching they receive are the big driving factors while veterans on the team and other small factors can drive progression as well. Out of the Park doesn't do production based progression, it does it like it is done in real life. Each player has a scouting report for their current skills and a report for what their potential looks to be. Some scouts are more accurate than others. As players age their reports get more accurate and eventually veterans who have enough exposure in the league practically have unanimous reports since it is clear how good they are. I'd much rather have a system that isn't production based and instead just has reports on everyone so we could draft guys with high ceilings and over the years we'd see if they ever panned out or if they were busts. At least then we'd have a realistic bust system since it'd take years to see and you'd also get a more realistic breakout player system where a guy that wasn't seen by scouts as someone who would reach all-star caliber skills, but he just kept progression past what everyone expected. Of course, if a user didn't want to go all Fog of War and wanted exact ratings they could always have that as an option. Out of the Park does that, they have options where scouting reports have 6 options. Exact ratings so you know how good they are now and project to be exactly, then 5 other options ranging from Somewhat Accurate to Highly Accurate. Real life has a true fog of war feel to projecting players and it is why the draft is so fun. I'd love for Madden to eventually get a system in place to replicate this.

I'm all for more games adding a 'fog of war' similar to OOTP. I know many people do enjoy seeing actual ratings in franchise mode (so it should be an option for sure), but so many aspects of the game would improve simply by not knowing true ratings.

Player ratings should differ based on each teams scouting department and only be as reliable as the scouting ability. This one change would instantly make playing pre-season games worthwhile. It'd be the users chance to get a better feel for how good their rookies are. With real ratings, there no point in playing with unproven players cause I know exactly how good they are.

That's just one example. There are so many other examples too. You'd have real position battles, trades would be more interesting, and so on.

[triplechin]

Quote: Originally Posted by lions2k9

Regardless of anything, the concept of having an awesome year statistically but not being rewarded for it properly is dumb design. If a rookie player is rated 76 overall and rushes for 728 yards, has 81 catches for 826 yards and has 13 total touchdowns.. what should his rating be the next season in Madden? Would you guess 88 overall? Alvin Kamara jumped from 76 to an 88 overall from Madden 18 to Madden 19. Those are his stats listed above. I have Kerryon Johnson in his rookie year, I exceed all of those stats easily, win ROY, and the next year he can’t even be an 80 overall. I don’t care what kind of system of progression gets put in place, I just want it to mirror how the Madden team would rate that player the following season if that’s what he accomplished the year previous.

Peep my comments earlier in the thread, I try to explain why this reasoning is flawed. I get the want but it leads to a wack franchise from team management standpoint.

With this being the case, when you are playing you knowingly are hampering and boosting players by throwing to them or stat padding with them. Coaches in real life aren't saying lets throw this to the TE up by 20 because he will gain xp if he has more yards. It perverts the gameplay and just really isn't how things work in real life. Perhaps getting real game experience can be reflected by getting snaps, but actual stats shouldn't matter.

[Ueauvan]

drive goal exps, exps for 4 tds, 100 yds and 10 carries, you get those so why baulk at season exps, seems incosistent

[raypace1]

Quote: Originally Posted by beastmode2013

That has nothing to do with gaining points from production. EA said that players will gain points to level up without having to train/gain XP.

I don't recall that.. Do you remember who said it and when?


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