Werewolf: XIV Spawn (GAME OVER! Please give feedback) [Archive] - Page 12

RealDeal

09-15-2005, 03:10 PM

That is important info you could have filled us in on. RA and Vince scanning Schmidty makes no sense, when you have me and blade without scans.

I don't understand what you are saying exactly. Vince scanned Schmidty right after we nabbed dubb, and thus we thought Vince was a good guy at the time. So at the time, the Schmidty scan was pretty reliable so we thought.

Only last night did I decide that Mr. W's gambit proved his was truthful and that Vince had been a spawn for a while. So I went back and looked at the scans Vince did that we thought were truthful but were not. The Schmidty one stuck out to me because I had gone through every post in the game at the time and was sure that Schmidty was spawn.

It wasn't like the Vince scan of Schmidty was useless. At the time, it seemed reliable.

I didn't withhold any info. When Vince scanned Schmidty, I thought Vince was a good guy.

The only info I held back was last night I didn't publicly say I was going to withhold water and from whom. I think the reasons for that were obvious; I didnt want the spawn and any survivors I might be killing to band together and lynch me.

I was acutally pretty close to not giving you water Fouts, but I went through all your posts and votes and decided that you were probably a good guy. I also suspected Hoops, but I decided I'd rather keep him alive even if he was spawn just so I could continue to have power over the water distribution via my orders.

RealDeal

09-15-2005, 03:18 PM

Did Lathum ever do anything? His slayer role could have been pretty useful.

Fouts

09-15-2005, 03:21 PM

Sorry, my point was that Vince choosing to scan Schmidty (instead of a more suspicious blade or me), when he had already been scanned by RA.

Fouts

09-15-2005, 03:23 PM

I was acutally pretty close to not giving you water Fouts, but I went through all your posts and votes and decided that you were probably a good guy. I also suspected Hoops, but I decided I'd rather keep him alive even if he was spawn just so I could continue to have power over the water distribution via my orders.

Yeah I know, which is why I didn't like your position of power. Somebody being able to kill off half the crew at once has way too much power. If you were a spawn, we were done for.

RealDeal

09-15-2005, 03:23 PM

When did RA scan Schmidty? Even if RA did scan Schmidty, that scan would have been very dubious since RA had just been pegged as a spawn.

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 03:25 PM

Did Lathum ever do anything? His slayer role could have been pretty useful.
For the first few days he did use it to protect people. However, he had stopped doing so before he got killed. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) he lost interest in the game. The biggest thing I realized out of this game was I don't think we as a board really have 20 WW players. I think we might get 20 or so people interested in playing, but at any given moment I think we have between 10-15 people who can really participate in a game. This game in order to work needed active participation which didn't happen from some people. I knew that the complexity might be too much for some people which is why I tried to line up an alternate.

hoopsguy

09-15-2005, 03:26 PM

Did anyone ever really trust me in this game? I don't think I could have played it any more straight than I did. And, next to Blade, I'm sure I had the most requests to scan me or just keep me around because of my role.

SnDvls

09-15-2005, 03:27 PM

Fouts

09-15-2005, 03:28 PM

When did RA scan Schmidty? Even if RA did scan Schmidty, that scan would have been very dubious since RA had just been pegged as a spawn.

Oh I misread your post. I though you meant RA scanned Schmidty, but you meant Vince's scan of Schmidt, which was after Vince's scan of RA.

RealDeal

09-15-2005, 03:30 PM

Yeah I know, which is why I didn't like your position of power. Somebody being able to kill off half the crew at once has way too much power. If you were a spawn, we were done for.

From a macro-perspective, I agree. From my perspective, once I grasped how powerful I was, it was awesome. I was a good guy, and I basically could kill anyone I wanted, so it seemed all good. I knew as long as I stayed alive and Kwhit didnt mess with my plan, the survivor team was golden, even if a few individual guys might have to eat it in the process.

From the perspective of another survivor not sure if I'm good or not, it definitely would be a lot less fun to have one guy who decides to play god and there's not a ton you can do about it.

So as RealDeal the player in the game, I think I made the right decision to go house with my power. From a game-build perspective, having one guy with that kind of power is probably not optimal.

RealDeal

09-15-2005, 03:33 PM

Nothing you did was suspicious Hoops, but my major fear was that you would play it straight all game until you got six survivors lined up as dehydrated and then drop a big bomb on us by depriving all six of water.

So although my gut was to trust you, you had some much potential to harm us that I was always suspicious. That was one reason why I decided to cut in on the water orders at the end, to reduce the risk of you slaughtering us in one night.

Passacaglia

09-15-2005, 03:34 PM

Why was Vince exhausted that day, anyway? Seems odd that his exhaustion was what caused a lot of our problems, and we don't even know why it happened. Not saying that it wasn't up and up, just odd.

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 03:36 PM

From a game-build perspective, having one guy with that kind of power is probably not optimal.

Even if the three people most likely to have that power were guarenteed non-Spawn at the start of the game? I knew that was considerable power which is why I tried to balance it that way. If you don't think that was effective do you have a suggestion on how to make it different?

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 03:36 PM

Why was Vince exhausted that day, anyway? Seems odd that his exhaustion was what caused a lot of our problems, and we don't even know why it happened. Not saying that it wasn't up and up, just odd.
His being a light sleeper caused his exhaustion that day after the attack.

Poli

09-15-2005, 03:38 PM

Hmmph. Good job, guys. I was a little surprised when I found out Schmidty was spawn. I honestly felt Jeff or maybe Lathum was the Queen Spawn.

Schmidty

09-15-2005, 03:43 PM

Yeah, what the hell did the spawn do all game? The perceived total lack of action confused me.

Trust me, we were trying as hard as we possibly could to win, but EVERY SINGLE THING that we tried to do failed. The cards were heavily stacked against us.

Congrats to the survivors.

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 03:43 PM

ok summary is done. Thanks to everyone for playing (I hope you had a good time!).

Fouts

09-15-2005, 03:47 PM

Day 7 -- I was AMAZED absolutely AMAZED that Vince wasn't lynched here. I mean there is almost NOTHING suggesting Mr. W is anything but good and it is a known possibilty that Vince might have been infected. This gave the Spawn one last chance.

Night 7 -- The Spawn attacked, seperately, the water plant. If there had been only one defender, as it looked like there would be when I went to bed, I thought this was a great move as if the first attack could kill or wound the defender it gave the second attack a great chance of damaging the water plant and thus killing off a bunch of the crew. It was not meant to be.

Day 7 - I was suspicious too. If Mr. W is on the up and up, why don't we lynch a confirmed spawn?

Night 7 - The security crew definitely need some medals for this night. Way to go guys!

RealDeal

09-15-2005, 03:48 PM

What do you mean RA was taken out of his coma?

Fouts

09-15-2005, 03:48 PM

ok summary is done. Thanks to everyone for playing (I hope you had a good time!).

Well done Barkeep. I enjoyed the background and detailed PM's. Although I think it was probably too much work for you.

pennywisesb

09-15-2005, 03:50 PM

Awesome game guys! Go survivors! I was really looking forward to getting to scan some people but oh well, we win! Thanks to barkeep for the great game! It seemed alittle overwhelming at first, but in the end it actually wasn't that bad at all and to be honest this is probably my favorite WW game to date. Overall good job to everyone.

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 03:53 PM

What do you mean RA was taken out of his coma?
He was killed. For the record with-out detailing the exact number (in case I ever run the game again) there was a 45-65 percent chance of success of curing Raiders. Of course this didn't matter since you had a fraudalent doc...

RealDeal

09-15-2005, 03:54 PM

What was the embargoed information?

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 03:55 PM

Well done Barkeep. I enjoyed the background and detailed PM's. Although I think it was probably too much work for you.
Honestly I didn't mind the work so much when it was up in the air. The last two days when it became apparent to me that the Spawn were going to lose, it seemed like work, but I really enjoyed running the game.

Thanks for the kind words from everyone and PLEASE give feedback on any changes you'd make. The comments from Mr. W about empaths and Real about officers are good stuff.

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 03:57 PM

What was the embargoed information?
Mr. W's empath scan not being able to be revealed at night. Vince sent me a frantic PM asking for the night. At first it seemed reasonable but I then shifted for the reasons I've already explained.

RealDeal

09-15-2005, 03:59 PM

I'll hand out a little hardware since we are at the end:

MVP award: tough one because a number of guys played big roles in our win, but I'll hand it to Mr. W. His self-sacrificial play at the end gave us the info to bag both of the remaining spawn.

LVP: Tough one between AE, who bombed every big decision he made, and Lathum, who had one of the most powerful abilities in the game and didn't use it many nights.
I'll go with Lathum because neither of AE's decisions were completely irrational.

I will say, however, that when I voted in favor of the mutiny, I was pretty sure AE was a good guy. My vote was less of a kill-a-spawn vote than a no-confidence vote.

SnDvls

09-15-2005, 04:01 PM

I will say, however, that when I voted in favor of the mutiny, I was pretty sure AE was a good guy. My vote was less of a kill-a-spawn vote than a no-confidence vote.

same reason I voted to kill him

hoopsguy

09-15-2005, 04:22 PM

In regards to AE, I didn't want to kill a survivor because of "spawn captain" fears. While I understand that we needed to conduct a lynch pretty much every day because of water concerns I didn't think we needed to throw out someone who (I thought) had just made a mistake in judgement.

Knowing what we know now, we did not need to lose SnDvls. If everyone had been kept alive by water and we had lynched Vince today then I think Schmidty would have 1.) attacked water again or 2.) thrown in the towel.

RealDeal, you did a very nice job of picking out Schmidty on Day 4. I re-read a ton of posts looking for a hole in your argument and didn't see anything glaring. After he was cleared, that is when my suspicion of Vince went from risk-mitigation mode to thinking it was a 50/50 proposition that he was indeed spawn.

Lathum is the guy I had the hardest time getting a read on because of the (perceived) inactivity.

After the Fouts/Blade no-lynch day I thought there was a pretty good chance that Blade was spawn. But that opinion softened over the last couple of days. Even after having a couple of games with him I have kind of a hard time reading him. Just seems more random than most people (shrug).

hoopsguy

09-15-2005, 04:23 PM

And I think it would have been a blast to play this game as a spawn in my role - had fun this way too, but bad waterboy would have had a lot of potential.

RealDeal

09-15-2005, 04:31 PM

Knowing what we know now, we did not need to lose SnDvls. If everyone had been kept alive by water and we had lynched Vince today then I think Schmidty would have 1.) attacked water again or 2.) thrown in the towel.

I agree, but the time I assumed we had a good chance of having three spawn. Although there were some other folks that Vince scanned after his conversaion, so it might have taken a few turns to figure out which one, if any, was the lie. On the other hand, once we lynched Vince, i probably would have been right back on Schmidty anyway because I was so confident in my earlier analysis pointing him out as spawn.

And thanks for the comment about Schmidty. Picking him out from reading 1500 posts was my crowning achievement of the game. Unfortunately, due to Vince's conversion, I didn't get the glory of bagging him like that.

Mr. Wednesday

09-15-2005, 04:32 PM

Why was Vince exhausted that day, anyway? Seems odd that his exhaustion was what caused a lot of our problems, and we don't even know why it happened. Not saying that it wasn't up and up, just odd.Light sleeper, as I think both RealDeal and I had concluded at the time.

Mr. Wednesday

09-15-2005, 04:36 PM

Day 7 -- I was AMAZED absolutely AMAZED that Vince wasn't lynched here. I mean there is almost NOTHING suggesting Mr. W is anything but good and it is a known possibilty that Vince might have been infected. This gave the Spawn one last chance.It was risky, but I pushed against lynching Vince because I thought that the devolution into a Vince vs. W showdown would be too detrimental... and I've got very mixed success when those have come down. Even though I knew it was going to cost me, I figured it was better to take a shot at getting the other spawn. Unfortunately, we chose wrong with Lathum instead of Schmidty, but I do think the latter was on our short list at that point.

saldana

09-15-2005, 04:59 PM

cheers to barkeep, this game was excellent to play, although it was a monster to try to keep up with once i started working every day. 100 posts a day every time i came home. but i liked all the rules and the secret roles made things very interesting. i'd play one of yours again anytime.

Blade6119

09-15-2005, 05:09 PM

After the Fouts/Blade no-lynch day I thought there was a pretty good chance that Blade was spawn. But that opinion softened over the last couple of days. Even after having a couple of games with him I have kind of a hard time reading him. Just seems more random than most people (shrug).

Heres one thing to know about me...i purposely piss people off. Most people might not like it, but when people get agitated and upset they tip their hands. After the way ardent reacted i knew he was good but it was too late to stop it. Realdeal's tirade against me told me he was good too. It might upset some people, but thats what i want. Makes my job easier. I go balls to the wall on people all the time, as its who stands up for who and who doesnt that tells us the bad and good. If we all sat back the would win. Someone has to be the prick who pisses people off but makes the bad guys make moves, and im usually that person

JonInMiddleGA

09-15-2005, 05:41 PM

Kibitzer comments -- considering I've never played any of the WW games (nor do I think I'm ever likely to) & didn't do much more than skim over the rule set for this variant, I was able to follow along pretty well & had a pretty good understanding of how it worked. I think that says a lot for the DM job Barkeep did with this game, and I wanted to give him props for that.

On the other hand, just from the way outside looking in, it seemed like the most powerful roles might have been just a little too powerful relative to the lesser roles. I see that as both good & bad, bad from the standpoint of balancing roles that someone gets in the random draw but good from the standpoint of being realistic to the situation being RP'ed. {shrug} Maybe it balances itself in the middle, but that's my .02 just from watching it.

And, since somebody is probably going to wonder "if he doesn't play, WTF is he reading", somewhere along the way in this one, ya'll seriously began to amuse the hell out of me ;)

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 06:37 PM

On the other hand, just from the way outside looking in, it seemed like the most powerful roles might have been just a little too powerful relative to the lesser roles.

I saw your name in the who's reading a few times and I admit I wondered why someone would possibly slog through this monster if they weren't playing. Thanks for the complement (and you too Saldana)

What roles specifically were you referring to? The feedback's important because somewhere down the road (meaning no time soon) I have an idea for a sequel and so would want to know how to rebalance.

Raiders Army

09-15-2005, 06:40 PM

...

Raiders Army

09-15-2005, 06:40 PM

Wait, I can talk now???

pennywisesb

09-15-2005, 06:43 PM

Wait, I can talk now???

No. No you can't.

;)

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 06:44 PM

Wait, I can talk now???
:D

Raiders Army

09-15-2005, 06:45 PM

For some reason, I'm not that tired...

hoopsguy

09-15-2005, 07:11 PM

Has anyone ever gotten more posts for

...

than Raiders Army (note that the spelling is correct).

Passacaglia

09-15-2005, 07:29 PM

Day 7 - I was suspicious too. If Mr. W is on the up and up, why don't we lynch a confirmed spawn?

Night 7 - The security crew definitely need some medals for this night. Way to go guys!

Fouts, don't forget you were part of that security crew! Way to go you!

Poli

09-15-2005, 07:30 PM

I'd like this answered by the Spawn and by barkeep. Was liftoff important at all?

Vince

09-15-2005, 07:32 PM

What a game...I had a blast being in this one. My thoughts/musings...

The fact that Schmidty failed every single thing he attempted after I became spawn was rather frustrating. My first order of business was to suggest killing hoopsguy. Had he died that day, I think we would have been in amazing shape, because he had only marginally formed his suspicions on me to that point, and was starting to build a case against KWhit and Fouts, I think.

I was absolutely livid when I found out that Mr. Wednesday could empathically scan something he said himself (sorry about that PM Barkeep...I'm sure that it wasn't very nice). I re-read the rulesEmpathic May PM the GM to verify truth of one complete sentence said by another person in the public thread. and further irritated myself, but there was nothing to be done. Once I came to the conclusion that Barkeep would allow Mr. W to do that, I threw out my post claiming my innocence as a bluff to try to convince those people that had a little trust in me that there were more important people to scan (immediately, while I could be scanned in a day or so by Pennywisesb), such as Hoopsguy, who was in charge of our water that night. I definitely think the Empath ability should be limited. What put me off most was that I had gone out of my way to make sure I had not made a statement that could be 'empathically outed,' yet I was still burned by it.

The real killer was that Schmidty then forgot to send in a night action. Once I realized what was going on, I came to the conclusion that if Mr. Wednesday was allowed to say "Vince is spawn," I had two days to live, tops. Even if I managed to convince people that I should live one day, once Mr. Wednesday died and was proven innocent, I was a goner. Which meant that Schmidty didn't have long after. Since I was still stuck in the brig, I PM-ed Schmidty that he needed to kill Mr. Wednesday if we had any chance at all at keeping ourselves hidden. He replied "sounds good," but apparently never sent it in. I wonder what would have happened if Mr. W had died...

As for the Spawn attacking the water earlier and more often...we were incredibly well hidden once I got to be a spawn. I figured we should first limit the critics of the two of us, then get to taking out the essentials (like the water) -- Hoopsguy was the only person who voiced anything close to concern over me being Spawn until two days after I had been converted. And on each successive night, something happened that we needed to address before attacking the water. Of course, we probably would have failed spectacularly at attacking the water, as we failed at everything else...but still.

Last night, I sent in a last ditch plan effort to barkeep, that I was fairly certain he wouldn't let me do. I asked Schmidty to attack Mr. Wednesday again, saying I had a plan and that I would jointly attack Mr. Wednesday with him. Well, my plan was to watch Schmidty kill Mr. W, then kill Schmidty and attempt to plant Schmidty's spawn on Mr. W. I figured it was the only way I could make it, and I think if allowed to, it would have been brilliant.

But it wasn't meant to be.

I threw out the RealDeal injuring me thing on a lark to try to confuse you guys. I had been considering pulling the same thing with Hoops prior to today, but I realized it was a once and done strategy, so decided against it.

Hell of a game, Barkeep -- I enjoyed it a lot.

Vince

09-15-2005, 07:33 PM

I'd like this answered by the Spawn and by barkeep. Was liftoff important at all?
Yes, it neutered the Spawn Queen. Once liftoff occurred, the only person that could be converted was me, and only while I was trying to cure someone.

Passacaglia

09-15-2005, 07:42 PM

Sorry about the formatting, but the Pm that barkeep sent explaining empath had different wording. But anyway, could MrW just have had someone else say "Vince is spawn."?

Originally Posted by Passacaglia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkeep49
Hope you're having a nice Labor Day Weekend.

Your Public Role for Werewolf is Private. As a you may go on away team missions or be promoted by the Second Officer.

Your Private Role for Werewolf is an Empath. As an Empath you may, twice in the game, send a single sentence to me from the thread. I will then tell you if the statement is True, False, or Unknown based on what I know.

If you have any questions, or need some help getting started, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Hey, hope you're having a good Labor Day weekend, too!

I do have one question about my Empath role. Can it be a sentence that I say in the thread, or does it have to be a sentence that someone else says?

It can be a sentence anyone says. At first I admit I was puzzled about why you would do a sentence you had said but then I figured it out . Good question.

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 08:04 PM

Fouts

09-15-2005, 08:42 PM

The real killer was that Schmidty then forgot to send in a night action. Once I realized what was going on, I came to the conclusion that if Mr. Wednesday was allowed to say "Vince is spawn," I had two days to live, tops. Even if I managed to convince people that I should live one day, once Mr. Wednesday died and was proven innocent, I was a goner. Which meant that Schmidty didn't have long after. Since I was still stuck in the brig, I PM-ed Schmidty that he needed to kill Mr. Wednesday if we had any chance at all at keeping ourselves hidden. He replied "sounds good," but apparently never sent it in. I wonder what would have happened if Mr. W had died...

If you look back, I was guarding Mr. W that night because he never answered whether you were spawn or not. Might have been tough for Schmidty to get past me.

kingfc22

09-15-2005, 09:13 PM

I still can't believe that I locked up 2 spawn at one time. I never even got a chance to use my 3 shot phaser. Thanks Jeff :( ;)

jeff061

09-15-2005, 09:31 PM

Hehe. Yeah, incredibly bad luck on your part. If I had known at the time the Spawn weren't going to kill anyone over the course of the game I would of not used it that night and kept it for something more definitive.

Poli

09-15-2005, 09:38 PM

I probably wouldn't have lynched you either.

jeff061

09-15-2005, 09:52 PM

You shouldn't of anyways. Plenty of reasons to think King was guilty at the time, 0 for innocence. Not to mention if I was spawn I wouldn't of admitted to killing him. On top of the fact there was a clear cut path to winning everyone supported, which was killing Raiders. That plan was delayed a day.

Poli

09-15-2005, 10:00 PM

I thought I could end it right away if I took you out. I was ultimately wrong thinking Raiders Army was useful, but then again, so were you. I knew you were wrong about kingfc before you killed him. His death basically sealed your fate, and ultimately mine.

dubb93

09-15-2005, 10:20 PM

Good win survivors. Now onto my thoughts on game balance...

* The deck is stacked way too much against the Spawn. Spawn not having secret roles combined with all the survivors having one is an easy way to finger the spawn.

* Way too many seer type roles with the doctors having a chance to scan 2 people a day. Combine that with the empaths and the guys that can act like doctors for a day and the nurse, there is no way for the spawn to make it to the end of a long game.

* It seems that the with all the bodygaurds and the brig, the spawn can't ever get the guy(or object) they need to get. This stacks the deck even further in favor of the survivors when the there are 4 or more seer actions each day, lots of bodygaurds(protecting EVERYTHING) and the important people in the brig, the spawn simply can't do anything. Hell, there is even a chance that a guy that isn't protected won't be killed/converted due to the dice role.

I may think of some other things, but this game needs to be further balanced before I play it again. It was really fun, untill me and Schmidty realized we couldn't get anything accomplished. And the only way to get the doctor was to completely out myself in the brig. Reduce the # of seers and bodygaurds and increase the chances of spawn's actions being sucessfull and the game could have easily turned out different, as it was me and Schmidty knew on night 2 we couldn't make it to the end of this game with all the seers and the bodygaurds.

hoopsguy

09-15-2005, 10:27 PM

I thought that there should have been one more spawn to start. But perhaps I would have felt differently about that if we had not gotten lift-off as quickly as we did. Two failed attempts at the doctor really tilted the game early, I think.

By the way, what did Schmidty do on the night that you guys attacked in the brig? Anything? I feel like the queen has to attempt to convert each night if they lose that ability after lift-off.

Perhaps another balancing mechanism could be that the queen can convert one more time post-liftoff after the spawn are down to two. That would have really tilted the game if someone we had cleared could be converted.

I asked Barkeep how the other game went that he based this ruleset on. He said that the spawn won by denying water.

hoopsguy

09-15-2005, 10:29 PM

Dubb, it sounds like you feel a little bit like I did when I played Fozzie's X-Com game. We were unlucky in that our early kills were generic villagers - numerous roles in that game had the ability to mini-see by getting to submit a list of three names and being told if there was a bad guy in that mix. Then there was the turncoat, who narced out the whole group of bad guys, including their specific roles. Having been on the wrong side of that battle, I was glad that Barkeep kept Raiders limited on info sharing in this game.

SnDvls

09-15-2005, 10:30 PM

I totally enjoied the game....until I knew I was going to have to die.

I agree the deck was pretty stacked against the spawn, mabey you combine some roles and have more non-role people. You could have easily gotten rid of my role and combined it w/ the warden.

Even though I never knew my secret role I really enjoied the game.
Anyhow...YEAH!!! SURVIVORS!!!

kingfc22

09-15-2005, 10:34 PM

I PM'd Barkeep early in the game about the number of bodyguards. Especially after he changed the rules to allow all security members to hold a phaser. I thought that was a HUGE advantage for us survivors and that is also why I asked if there was any need for us to protect the engine room after we had lifted off. Once the answer was "no" it enable us to protect almost everything without fear of being overwhelmed by an attack.

Barkeep49

09-15-2005, 10:38 PM

kingfc22

09-15-2005, 10:39 PM

Barkeep, don't get me wrong. This was one of the most entertaining WW games I've been apart of by far. Very cool ideas and I think it would have played out a little differently if we had waited one more day to Liftoff .

hoopsguy

09-15-2005, 10:49 PM

I'm not sure more privates and less engineers does much for balancing the game if privates can be brought up to fill positions for dead survivors. I think the idea of privates getting promoted is very cool and would not like to see that dropped, but that flexibility makes them more valued, in many respects, than engineers.

dubb93

09-15-2005, 10:56 PM

Ok so there seems to be consensus that there shouldn't be so many guards at the start of the game and perhaps increasing the number of privates. I think perhaps less engineers would be a good thing as well.

Dubb do you think you would have felt differently had Marc not been killed that second day? That would have made for up to 4 spawn that could have been attacking each night.

Yea, probably. I feel with all the seer types(which the really wasn't a need for 2 empaths and I believe there were two people that had to power to use anyones role for a day, which obviously turned out to be a doctors role) that you should have started us with WAY more than 2 and 1 spawnling. I'm thinking 3(a full council) and 2 spawnlings would have been ideal. The less engineers means that we don't get off the ground as fast, that helps as well. IDK, there was just flat out no way we were winning this game and we knew it early.

dubb93

09-15-2005, 11:00 PM

BTW, Schmidty participated in the attack in the brig. It was a spawn attack. We really didn't want Vince to know he was attacked b/c it would out me and RA, while he had to go and we knew he would be in the brig the entire game. It was our only chance and we had to take it. Otherwise you have a seer that can not only scan 1 person each day, but can scan 2. We would have been outted really quick.

dubb93

09-15-2005, 11:06 PM

DOLA:

The reason for the spawn attack in the brig is we didn't want a dead body in there either. We probably could have killed him in the brig with a double attack from me and RA, but then we are goners anyway.

Mr. Wednesday

09-15-2005, 11:23 PM

I think we're all on the same page about the empath. I know that in the game I got the idea from, each crew member said each day "I am not a werewolf on Day X". If someone didn't/wouldn't make the statement it was considered very suspicous.I was absolutely going for that dynamic when I asked for statements from everyone, I was very suspicious by the end of the day that nothing was forthcoming from Vince, and if it had been played straight (rather than how I was allowed to do it), I would have started agitating the following day because I had decided that Vince was the one I wanted to check. It's hard to say how it would have played out from there.

Mr. Wednesday

09-15-2005, 11:25 PM

On top of the fact there was a clear cut path to winning everyone supported, which was killing Raiders.Killing Raiders was a terrible idea. We wasted a chance to take a shot at getting a spawn. It seemed clear to me that RA was going to die in another day or so due to lack of water anyway.

Fouts

09-15-2005, 11:28 PM

Killing Raiders was a terrible idea. We wasted a chance to take a shot at getting a spawn. It seemed clear to me that RA was going to die in another day or so due to lack of water anyway.

Yeah I said that for 2 days, but it was like talking to a wall. Total waste of a vote. So was voting for blade and I and not lynching one of us. Of course, I didn't want to be the one lynched.

Mr. Wednesday

09-15-2005, 11:30 PM

hoopsguy

09-15-2005, 11:57 PM

I still disagree that killing Raiders was a waste, because we got the nurse earlier. There was some suspicion of the current doc at that point, but it wasn't overwhelming. We had no idea how many spawn there were. So by killing Raiders early, we were getting either our only scan one day earlier or an additional scan one day earlier.

Plus, if we were able to protect our water we were going to lose, at most, one survivor to dehydration.

I can see the argument the other way, but I don't see how anyone can say this was open and shut.

jeff061

09-16-2005, 04:54 AM

I knew you were wrong about kingfc before you killed him

How? Because you could PM him? What could he of possibly said to prove he was innocent after putting 2 spawn and vince together in the brig?

And no, I still think killing Raiders was the right idea, there was stil a lot of people left and having another nurse was a major plus. If Penny wasn't going to get promoted, then no, the killing would of been pointless.

If you hadn't of caught Schmidty or if the spawn was someone getting water you'd be wishing you had killed Raiders.

Poli

09-16-2005, 07:15 AM

Call it a false sense of security, call it whatever you want, but I knew he was clean before that time. When it turned out he had put two spawn in there, I knew it was just a mistake. There was no opportunity for him to have converted, at least to public knowledge.

Vince

09-16-2005, 02:07 PM

In retrospect, the spawn probably should have realized how dangerous my remaining empath action could be and gone after me before I brought it up. I'm not convinced they were as far from winning as dubb seems to think.I definitely knew, and was trying to come up with a way to have you use it on someone other than me. Other than that one scan, you were useless, and there was plenty of suspicion about people other than myself -- I felt that we were better spent using (wasting...stupid failed rolls) our efforts on other targets. When hoops mentioned that we could have used your scan on Lathum the day I scanned him, I was pissed because it would have been a perfect out. My bluff (claiming that I wasn't a spawn) after you had scanned I thought was pretty good, because Hoops made a lot of sense to scan up front due to the fact that he was rationing the water. The only problem is that I wasn't online early enough to do it, and I'm not even sure you would have listened to me anyways.

Mr. Wednesday

09-16-2005, 02:14 PM

pennywisesb

09-16-2005, 02:20 PM

I'm not even sure you would have listened to me anyways.

I learned alot from this game, namely, don't listen to Vince. ;)

Vince

09-16-2005, 02:21 PM

I made up my mind pretty early in the day that I had some latent questions about you and it was critically important to have complete trust in your scans. If I cleared you, then we could trust your previous scans and you'd be able to move on to scanning e.g. hoops.
Yup. I knew with the 'gamble' that we could essentially be screwed if something like that happened. I mean, we were so set at the beginning of that day, and then everything fell apart when you decided to scan me. Ugh.

I think I may be overstating his importance, but if hoops hadn't have been there, I wonder how organized you guys would have been? RealDeal posted some really good stuff, but he wasn't as active as hoops, and hoops really was the only one to voice suspicion of me right away. If we could have gotten just ONE good roll...

...well, that's why they play the games :)

Vince

09-16-2005, 02:26 PM

I learned alot from this game, namely, don't listen to Vince. ;)
For the most part, everything I did post-conversion was the exact same as I would have done pre-conversion. If I hadn't been turned, I STILL would have been very tempted to try to revive Raiders Army. And outside of Schmidty, I didn't lie about anything until Mr. Wednesday found out who I was. I was surprised Schmidty didn't come under any scrutiny (at least not aloud) until RealDeal deprived him of water. I was very brief when I cleared him (since it was about 15 minutes after I had found out I was no longer a good guy), and then basically just moved on. I believe that I was at least a little more descriptive of everyone else that i cleared. There was very (very) little reason to doubt me at that point, I guess. Bravo hoops, for sniffing me out (you bastard :)).

I was actually surprised that when Mr. Wednesday went to scan something, he didn't pick my statement that Schmidty was clean...I guess it's because I cleared Lathum and...whoever else I cleared that next day. Who did I clear the day we decided to kill RA?

Mr. Wednesday

09-16-2005, 02:29 PM

I think it would have been too much of a risk for me to look for something like Schmidty being clean. Sure, if I'd nailed that one, it would have finished the game for us, but if I missed it, we wouldn't have cleared the one person that I wanted a definitive read on.

hoopsguy

09-16-2005, 02:49 PM

Yep, I thought about the Schmidty is clean statement as well. But after you had scanned Lathum I didn't want MrW to go that route if there were better options.

After reading RealDeals post on Schmidty as spawn on Day 4, and then you cleared him then I knew that you were spawn if Schmidty was spawn (duh). But I thought it was possible that you were spawn and Schmidty was clean. Neither Schmidty nor Lathum posted very much this week, so there wasn't any real opportunity to pick up anything based on their posts. And the voting patterns this week weren't all that telling either.

That is one thing that was interesting in this game - needing 1/3 of total votes to lynch. That, coupled with the water aspect, almost forced bandwagons and made it more challenging to pick up anything in voting patterns. We were lucky on the first day to have two spawn in our sites and then have you attacked in the brig. Although I did not realize that Schmidty would be able to launch a spawn attack from outside the brig.