WW XCIV Group Therapy - Game Over!

[PurdueBrad]

****, sorry ntn and village, that's a better role than me.

[Autumn]

Good grief. I guess the no role reveal was not a good sign.

[EagleFan]

On the bright side it was not a major role and actually one that had more of a chance to hurt us than help us.

[claphamsa]

i dont get it... thatsa not such a powerful role....

[claphamsa]

On the bright side it was not a major role and actually one that had more of a chance to hurt us than help us.
+1

[Autumn]

Ah my mistake, I was thinking that was the version of the bodyguard, but I see it's not. Well, that voting record might still prove useful.

[PurdueBrad]

It basically serves as a back-up to the bodyguard though.

[hoopsguy]

Well, hopefully there was a wolf near the top of the votes today rather than just a bunch of churning.

[claphamsa]

It basically serves as a back-up to the bodyguard though.
body guard wont block a seer scan....

[Danny]

I found it funny that Mr. Quiet NTN got the Talker :)

[Passacaglia]

Well, hopefully there was a wolf near the top of the votes today rather than just a bunch of churning.

Even if there was, what would that tell us?

[claphamsa]

i was gonna say the same thing... but I got lazy :D


I found it funny that Mr. Quiet NTN got the Talker :)

[Danny]

Oh and there was definite risk/reward with that role. I envisioned it being more useful late in the game, such as when some other roles are gone already.

[Danny]

Night Deadline is 1am eastern.

[PurdueBrad]

My only thoughts at this point is that I hope either myself or one of the other ntn voters is the recipient of a scan.

[hoopsguy]

Even if there was, what would that tell us?

1.) A wolf near the top of the votes is more likely to be selected for a scan tonight
2.) If there was a wolf in the top three players at the end then the wolves likely would have had to exert some energy to save him

I'm still very keen on the idea of seeing EF as the scan for tonight. But since I don't get to call that shot it probably doesn't matter all that much.

[Passacaglia]

1.) A wolf near the top of the votes is more likely to be selected for a scan tonight
2.) If there was a wolf in the top three players at the end then the wolves likely would have had to exert some energy to save him

I'm still very keen on the idea of seeing EF as the scan for tonight. But since I don't get to call that shot it probably doesn't matter all that much.

Right. I guess I was looking for something more specific about #2, and what that means for us. I'm not sure if anything's there right now, but maybe I'll be able to take a better look tomorrow.

[DaddyTorgo]

ugh - i forgot that deadline was 8 and didn't realize what time it was

at least it was just d1

[Autumn]

Good thing the deadline hadn't stayed at 6 ;-)

[Poli]

Hmmph.

[Schmidty]

Hi.

[Schmidty]

I'm lonesome.

[Poli]

Creepy quiet.

[DaddyTorgo]

d1 - not sure how much analysis there can be at this point

[Schmidty]

I just posted more than I did in the last game.

[The Jackal]

What would you like to discuss?

[The Jackal]

In games where there's a split between the lynch deadline and night deadline I feel like not a lot of talking gets done, both because of wolves plotting and because it's usually late at night and most people are on their way to bed.

[Poli]

I think I'm on my way to bed on that note.

[EagleFan]

In games where there's a split between the lynch deadline and night deadline I feel like not a lot of talking gets done, both because of wolves plotting and because it's usually late at night and most people are on their way to bed.

I was noticing that in the Office Space game and the last couple games it has jumped out at me.

I like running a split deadline but I think the next game I run will only have an hour in between. That way by the time the write up is done those with night actions still have time to submit and the initial wave of reaction to the day results has died down just in time for the night result.

[hoopsguy]

I'm not sure how much there is to discuss at this point. Can't talk about a role if it is not one of the public ones. Don't want to give away any kind of meaningful information about a private role.

I put down who I would like to see the seer scan (EF). I'm guessing the BG would stay home tonight, although I'm not sure that is an option from the description. I'm guessing that the Duke is a daytime role. And I think that covers the public roles.

I'm not sure how to put today's vote into context at the moment. I'm hopeful that we'll have an opportunity later in the game to do so.

[Abe Sargent]

Agreed

[EagleFan]

I just keep waiting to hear that a train is getting close, or see someone dragged away in handcuffs every time I see Abe has posted in the thread... )

[Abe Sargent]

You get used to it ;)

[dubb93]

I would have given Abe the role of "Bull Moose Special."

You hear the train coming and fear what will happen when it gets here.

[Danny]

12 minutes until night deadline

[Danny]

I am beginning to process night results.

[Chief Rum]

In time for the night results.

Sucks about ntn. I am hoping we get a good scan tonight, not that I recommend the seer come out this soon, though. I am not sure even a wolf scan at this point has as much value so early. I am greedy, and would like to see the seer attempt to scan for another wolf or two, or get some information on the wolf with the wolf not knowing he's outed.

Incidentally, with respect to my theory before, ntn turning out to be a villager validates a portion of one of the theory's basic tenets (both ntn and EF would have to be villagers).

[Danny]

As you all look around after the night time, no one is missing except.....
.
.
.
.
.
.
Danny the therapist who then comes out of the bathroom in a clown costume after Poli earlier confessed he is scared of clowns. After a good laugh and changed underwear, everyone is here.

Still, with no one dead, the eerie feeling is still there. You think there are those out to get you, but so far have no proof. Are your fears acute paranoia? Or is it only a matter of time before those out to get you, really do!

During the night, EagleFan was criticized and does not feel confident enough to vote today. He was so hurt he did not notice who insulted him. EF can still post in thread.

[Danny]

At least one person is here for the results.

[Lathum]

Vote PB

[The Jackal]

Interesting. I hope that's a good thing.

[The Jackal]

well that was quick

[Lathum]

OK, so no kill.

Does that mean maybe the criticize every other night and kill every other night or was there something else in play?

[The Jackal]

I don't see anything about conversions in the rules, and I doubt a BG is going to reveal unless they caught something, so I donno.

[Danny]

OK, so no kill.

Does that mean maybe the criticize every other night and kill every other night or was there something else in play?

Since I am not Abe, the criticize is a listed wolf ability of a specific wolf. It does not have anything to do with the night kill.

[The Jackal]

So someone criticized EF, odd choice. Worried about where he'd put his vote? Could be a move to gain trust for a wolf, so it doesn't really elevate him into any trust category for me.

[Lathum]

Since I am not Abe, the criticize is a listed wolf ability of a specific wolf. It does not have anything to do with the night kill.

ok, so maybe we were lucky enough to get a block. nice.

[Lathum]

Danny, can the wolves criticize their own?

[Chief Rum]

Those wolf roles are independent of one another, right? So the Emphathizer (or whatever, the wolf Sympathizer seeker) can do his thing, while another wolf kills?

Just trying to determine if a no kill is a BG block, or an indication the wolves didn't try to use a kill tonight. Also, if they find the Sympathizer, does that result in a conversion? I don't recall if the first page said.

[Danny]

Those wolf roles are independent of one another, right? So the Emphathizer (or whatever, the wolf Sympathizer seeker) can do his thing, while another wolf kills?

Just trying to determine if a no kill is a BG block, or an indication the wolves didn't try to use a kill tonight. Also, if they find the Sympathizer, does that result in a conversion? I don't recall if the first page said.

The wolves choose to send someone in for the kill. The roles listed are specific wolf roles and does not have any bearing on a night kill or not. There may or may not be other mechanics in play though since there are many unlisted roles.

[Lathum]

Danny, can the wolves criticize their own?

Danny?

[The Jackal]

Lathum - Yes, it's in the rules.

[The Jackal]

from rules

The Criticizer - You are a needy who has the ability to criticize one player every other night. The player who is criticized will have such low self esteem that they won't feel confident enough to vote the next day. That player can still post. Needies may criticize themselves or fellow needies.

[Lathum]

ok, thanks

[The Jackal]

It doesn't look like the sympathizer gets converted if found by the desperate for attention, or if he finds any of the needies.

The Sympathizer - You secretly feel a lot of sympathy for the needies and their desire to remain in therapy and will win with them. Every night, you may scan to see if a player is a needy.

The Desperate for Attention - You want everyone's attention at all times, however you need to be careful not to draw suspicion as a needy. Each night you may pull aside one player and see how they respond to your attempts for attention. If you talk to the empathizer or sympathizer you will know it. However there is also one player out there who if you talk to will learn your identity, but will not be able to outright reveal it to the group.

[The Jackal]

So that leads me to believe we lucked out with a BG block.

[MartinD]

There are all kind of ways he could've gone and says voting for me is bandwagon jumping, don't feel sure about it...vote PB. It sounds like setting up an excuse for later.

Read my vote like this if you want - I stand by my reasoning for the vote. I'm not saying that I have any particular suspicions about PB (because I don't at this point in the game), just that of the options available at the time (as I saw them), I thought that this was the best use of my vote.

[The Jackal]

Or it's something activated by an unlisted role, in which case.. at least we didn't lose anyone.

[The Jackal]

why such a quick vote, lathum?

[DaddyTorgo]

VOTE PB

[Lathum]

why such a quick vote, lathum?

I saw some stuff in his play yesterday that stuck out to me

[Chief Rum]

VOTE PB




Little late, you think?

[dubb93]

I think I may see what is going on here. I'm going to wait until morning to atleast see if anyone comes out claiming anything. My theories at the moment:

Lathum is the seer and viewed PB last night

Lathum and PB were involved in the night kill some way some how. Possibly Lathum saw PB, or Lathum is a wolf and knows PB saw him.

There is some unlisted role mechanic at work here

Lathum is just being Lathum

I'm not willing to jump onboard yet like DT, I think I will wait to see what happens in the morning.

[The Jackal]

Yeah, I'm certainly not casting any votes tonight.

[The Jackal]

Not a huge fan of the hit and run vote from DT, either. Not like you don't have time to explain it..

[The Jackal]

Or we've a case of known unknowns by certain players. And I think I'm going to bed now.

[Poli]

There may or may not be other mechanics in play
Could have swore I said I wouldn't play in another Abe game.


;)

[claphamsa]

So that leads me to believe we lucked out with a BG block.
well its possible there is another roll out there liek the talker....

[PurdueBrad]

I'm already down 0-2 in the voting. I'm pretty sure I laid everything out I possibly could last night so at this point my only defense is I'm good. I'll just go back into my corner and sit quietly.

[Barkeep49]

I'll throw out conversion as an equally likely possibility as BG block.

[EagleFan]

I guess not being able to vote is not a completely bad thing. My voting has sucked these last three games anyway.

On the plus side I guess we either got a BG block or some other game mechanic came into play.

I don't think we should immediately say the BG should not reveal. Unless the BG had a hunch, or picked up on something, the block was probably a self protect. If that is the case and he (or she) saw the attacker there should definitely be a reveal as the wolves would most likely already know it. If the BG is certain that he (or she) wasn't seen or didn't identify the attacker then there is no reason to reveal.

[hoopsguy]

I've got a few games under my belt with Lathum. I don't think he auto-votes someone with no explanation to start Day 2 without a very good reason.

I'll move it if given a very compelling reason, but none have emerged so far.

VOTE PURDUEBRAD

[claphamsa]

maybe hes the one who can feel bad feelings? anf he cant reveal?

vote pb

[PurdueBrad]

I've got a few games under my belt with Lathum. I don't think he auto-votes someone with no explanation to start Day 2 without a very good villager reason.

Changed your line by a word but I will bet you a beer that he certainly did just that.

[claphamsa]

ok, i see no roll like that, apparently ive been in polis qrack

[claphamsa]

Changed your line by a word but I will bet you a beer that he certainly did just that.
if you are a villager... then lathum gets axed tommroow, unless he explians a ton :)

[PurdueBrad]

Wow, 0-4. Just know that I really don't like being the center of attention, I'm kind of quiet. I'll go back to sweeping, take no notice of me.

[PurdueBrad]

if you are a villager... then lathum gets axed tommroow, unless he explians a ton :)

EVERY single voter, I want you to guarantee me this. WHEN I am revealed as good, Lathum goes next. I have no problem with being a sacrifice for the village but that vote is out and out odd, as is DT's. So if you guys guarantee me that, I don't care if you lynch me 20-0, as that is how it looks. DON'T GET SPUN after I come up good.

[PurdueBrad]

EF, thanks for rooting for my Penguins last night.

[EagleFan]

EF, thanks for rooting for my Penguins last night.

:rant:

:D

[EagleFan]

Gotta head to a meeting and work.

The only thing I can say with 100 percent certainty is that I will not be voting for PB today. ;)

[claphamsa]

EVERY single voter, I want you to guarantee me this. WHEN I am revealed as good, Lathum goes next. I have no problem with being a sacrifice for the village but that vote is out and out odd, as is DT's. So if you guys guarantee me that, I don't care if you lynch me 20-0, as that is how it looks. DON'T GET SPUN after I come up good.


well if he does not KNOW you are good, im sure hell say something long befre 8 pm!

[Alan T]

Something is not sitting right with me about this morning. I can't quite put my finger on it. I know no one likes my gut feelings, but the crazy thought in my head right now is Lathum is just being Lathum and voting on his gut without much other reason. Others seem to be trying to build this up into a PB vs Lathum thing when I'm not sure that was what he was hinting at based on his short post after his vote.

I'm wondering if the end result of this will be a PB death followed by a Lathum death where both turned up good. Meaning three days lost and very little vote record from days 2 and 3 (due to the current run on PB and what I am guessing would be a run on Lathum tomorrow).

I honestly don't see any reason for a wolf to singularly out himself on day 2 by putting a he or me type vote out there, so only really two options seem legit to me: 1) PB is indeed bad, which would suprise me since I'm not usually that off on my read of people and based on his reactions, I just don't get that feeling.. 2) PB is good, and the wolves are more than happy letting Lathum put his neck out there.

[Barkeep49]

I'm with Alan. To me Lathum can make the move he does as a vanilla villager. Of course in this game it might be something else.

[Barkeep49]

Danny: Might want to update the thread title.

[Danny]

Done

[claphamsa]

ALan and BK... If its just a gut call im sure he will say, this was just a gut call what are you all doing....

[DaddyTorgo]

Not a huge fan of the hit and run vote from DT, either. Not like you don't have time to explain it..

i was on my way to bed actually. turned in a lil early last night.

and my line of thinking was that lathum wouldn't drop a quick vote like that without reason, and if he does he should know that we'll come after him next, so it'd be a suicidal wolf-move.

wondering if we'll hear more from him today

[claphamsa]

Wondering if well here from him? Lathum is one of those talk to hear his own voice types :D

[Alan T]

ALan and BK... If its just a gut call im sure he will say, this was just a gut call what are you all doing....

Was this a question or statement? Just trying to see if you are looking for a response :)

[Abe Sargent]

Morning all

[Barkeep49]

Wondering if well here from him? Lathum is one of those talk to hear his own voice types :D
He's asleep. He's a west coaster.

[claphamsa]

Was this a question or statement? Just trying to see if you are looking for a response :)


wow.. I just reread that.. and I have no idea what I was trying to say :P

im sure he will explain when he wakes up :)

[claphamsa]

He's asleep. He's a west coaster.
I was making fun of DT :P I know he lives in seattle

[hoopsguy]

I'm with Alan. To me Lathum can make the move he does as a vanilla villager. Of course in this game it might be something else.

From what I understand of this game, there is no such thing in this one. Now there may be roles that are a little less special than others, but I don't think Danny has any plain-jane villagers with no conditions, options, etc.

Also, based on the rules of the game Lathum may not be able to fully explain his vote if it is role-based. Which could be a convenient excuse for a wolf, but a very legitimate reason for a villager to not provide more details on his vote.

Like I said earlier, if something compelling comes up I'll change my vote. But nothing about Day 2 seems all that suspect to me at this point.

[dubb93]

I don't like PB's answer today(I honestly expected them to point the finger at each other. I was thinking there was a BG block on the kill last night and those two saw each other at the scene). Makes me feel like the options have narrowed down to two at this point. Either Lathum is the seer or Lathum is just going on a gut reaction. I don't actually expect Lathum to reveal if he is indeed the seer so I will go ahead and:

Vote PB

[PackerFanatic]

I understand not being able to explain votes and such, but those votes came so quick before the morning even really started...they just seem kinda fishy...

[Danny]

Game event - Bull Winkle Moose Special has occurred!

Abe went off his medication and believes himself to be Bullwinkle the moose. Out of nowhere he tears through the therapy room like a train at Poli.

Quickly, I leap out and subdue Abe with a shot to the arm. Abe is now back on his medication and the game will proceed.

(Disclaimer- this is purely for entertainment purposes, this event is not game related)

[PurdueBrad]

YAY, Lathum is here.

[PackerFanatic]

LOL...awesome.

[Danny]

As of post 850:

5 - PurdueBrad - Lathum (790), DaddyTorgo (810), Hoopsguy (822), Claphamsa (823), Dubb (846)

[PurdueBrad]

Ummm, Lathum left.

[PurdueBrad]

YAY, Lathum is back.

[DaddyTorgo]

and Lathum's back! (see i can play that game too)

[PurdueBrad]

ARGH, another person in my head!

[Lathum]

Ummm, Lathum left.

OK, I left because I needed to PM Danny.

This whole not mentioning anything about roles makes it pretty much impossible to say anything and be certain you aren't breaking any rules.

I'll post more when I hear from Danny but it may be a while. I may go back to sleep

The only reason I am even up right now id I had to register for fall quarter classes this morning.

[dubb93]

OK, I left because I needed to PM Danny.

This whole not mentioning anything about roles makes it pretty much impossible to say anything and be certain you aren't breaking any rules.

I'll post more when I hear from Danny but it may be a while. I may go back to sleep

The only reason I am even up right now id I had to register for fall quarter classes this morning.

So you are saying you know PB is bad due to your role? You aren't going on a gut feeling?

[DaddyTorgo]

yeah - the roles thing makes it tough

*shurg* i think that's more than enough for me to go on...and frankly i hope you don't say anymore lathum, b/c we don't want them to know what kind of role you have. maybe you're just the symapthizer-finder and PB is the sympathizer...etc.

[Lathum]

So you are saying you know PB is bad due to your role? You aren't going on a gut feeling?

no, I'm not saying that

[dubb93]

no, I'm not saying that

Alright then, I'm completely confused.

[dubb93]

I'll leave it alone, say no more Lathum. I don't want you to reveal any role you may have.

[PurdueBrad]

<------ Desperately hoping that Danny gets back to Lathum.

Timidly sits in the corner, not liking all eyes on me.

[DaddyTorgo]

it's gotta be tough for the person under-fire too

sorry PB

[claphamsa]

Lathum, are you comfortable with the fact that if PB gets voted out and comes back good your fecked?

[PurdueBrad]

Surprisingly, I'm not frustrated. There isn't much I can do here anyway. I worked too hard last night anyway. I got nothing.

[Lathum]

Lathum, are you comfortable with the fact that if PB gets voted out and comes back good your fecked?

No I won't be.

[Alan T]

Clap, why are you pushing that agenda so hard when it is clear that Lathum is waiting for clarification before continuing? You seem deadset on forcing a link there that has not been confirmed.

[Lathum]

Clap, why are you pushing that agenda so hard when it is clear that Lathum is waiting for clarification before continuing? You seem deadset on forcing a link there that has not been confirmed.

yeah.

I was voting PB no matter what today, but part of the reason I voted so early was to see how things went down.

Claps reaction and DT's second vote both strike me as interesting.

[Lathum]

Well, nothing from Danny.

I am going back to sleep, then shower/breakfast, then class.

I'll be back on around 1:30 EST.

[Passacaglia]

Why doesn't hoops's reaction strike you as interesting?

[Alan T]

Why doesn't hoops's reaction strike you as interesting?

I was wondering the same thing actually. I almost voted for Hoops earlier and then talked myself out of it under the thought that I always feel suspicious about him.

[DaddyTorgo]

I figured you had your reasons Lathum, partidularly given the mechanic of the game

[Lathum]

Hoops provided a sensible explination, however if others want to vote hoops I won't attempt to stand in their way.

I think a 2 way race probably is a good thing today.

[claphamsa]

Clap, why are you pushing that agenda so hard when it is clear that Lathum is waiting for clarification before continuing? You seem deadset on forcing a link there that has not been confirmed.


well we need some kind of clarification. either he has evidence that pb is bad, or he doesnt.

[claphamsa]

yeah.

I was voting PB no matter what today, but part of the reason I voted so early was to see how things went down.

Claps reaction and DT's second vote both strike me as interesting.
ok, thats good enought for me

unvote PB

[Lathum]

well we need some kind of clarification. either he has evidence that pb is bad, or he doesnt.

ok, thats good enought for me

unvote PB




whats good enough for you?

All I said was I was voting PB either way.

[Danny]

I got back to Lathum, but I guess he left before I did.

[Alan T]

I am having problems this game getting feelings that really ping me as bad so far. Yesterday I had a nagging feeling inside of me where for some reason I felt Lathum and Dubb were acting in a way that they were protecting ntn. That actually led to my placing my vote there as much as PurdueBrad's discussion during the day. With ntn being good, I obviously don't feel quite as strongly about Lathum or Dubb any longer. (even though for some reason the way Dubb has involved himself in the conversations in both days feels a bit off to me, and I can't quite place why).

There was another grouping that I noticed, but couldn't quite figure out from day 1 as well.. I think I remember it as Hoops + Packerfanatic, but for the life of me can't remember what it was about those two. I do note however that Packerfanatic felt a bit too agreeable with me this morning regarding the Lathum vs PB thing.

Still, even with the people I listed, I didn't get any real strong wolf pings from them or anyone so far this game. I've had quite a number of people that feel ok to me though which also is weird.

[hoopsguy]

I haven't heard anything yet that has convinced me that there is a better vote to be had today than PB.

[Passacaglia]

Hoops provided a sensible explination, however if others want to vote hoops I won't attempt to stand in their way.

I think a 2 way race probably is a good thing today.

His explanation was pretty much the same as DT and clap's really -- he was just a little wordier and cautious about it, and suggested that he might switch (which, of course, means he might not). I don't think it makes him any better than those two.

As for voting hoops, I didn't really expect you to stand in my way (and I don't know how you could, to be honest). I'm not really wanting to vote him at this point (though, like Alan, I had considered it earlier) -- I just don't think he should be left out of the list of people potentially trying to make this a runaway for PB. But I'm also not really looking to vote for anyone at the moment -- there's a lot of votes out there considering how early it is, and for the time being, I'm staying out of it.

[Lathum]

I got back to Lathum, but I guess he left before I did.

I have a follow up question in but basically I can't say much.

[Passacaglia]

I haven't heard anything yet that has convinced me that there is a better vote to be had today than PB.

By this, do you mean that your earlier reasons still apply, or that despite what appears to be a slight backtrack from Lathum, you still think PB is the best choice?

[hoopsguy]

Alan, I can tell you that there is no reason (at least in my mind) for a linkage with PackerFanatic and me. What I did note about him yesterday is that on two separate occasions he followed Pass on votes.

Post #284 - Pass votes Lerriuqs (who voted for him first)
Post #333 - PF votes Lerriuqs
Post #341 - Pass unvotes Lerriuqs
Post #357 - PF unvotes Lerriuqs
Post #370 - Pass votes NTN
Post #374 - PF votes NTN

What do I make of this? Honestly, I don't know but I've got it down as some kind of linkage between the two of them until proven otherwise.

[Lathum]

Pass, I gotta be honest. You are playing the same exact way you played during the Office Space game when you were a wolf.

[dubb93]

By this, do you mean that your earlier reasons still apply, or that despite what appears to be a slight backtrack from Lathum, you still think PB is the best choice?

I'm not sure how much of a backtrack is here. Lathum has made it clear he wants to let us know something about his role and/or involving PB but has also made it clear Danny is not letting him do so. Could be wolf BS or it could mean he caught PB.

[Lathum]

Ok, that's about all I can say as per Danny.

I'm not the seer or BG, nor do I want the seer or BG to come out. However, I stand by my vote for PB and hope we get some meaningful discussion/ vote history from today.

[Passacaglia]

Pass, I gotta be honest. You are playing the same exact way you played during the Office Space game when you were a wolf.

Man, I barely remember the Office Space game -- since I was a wolf, I probably didn't live long. What did I do there?

[Passacaglia]

I'm not sure how much of a backtrack is here. Lathum has made it clear he wants to let us know something about his role and/or involving PB but has also made it clear Danny is not letting him do so. Could be wolf BS or it could mean he caught PB.

That is true, but he's also been worried about the people following him on his vote. If he's that sure, why is he so worried about them?

[hoopsguy]

By this, do you mean that your earlier reasons still apply, or that despite what appears to be a slight backtrack from Lathum, you still think PB is the best choice?

We had three people in a vote yesterday. One of them has been proven to be good (NT). So PB is a person of interest for the vote today.

PB would also have been a person of interest for people with good roles and actions last night, although my (stated) preference would have been EF. So with him having a higher likelihood of drawing investigative actions last night, that makes him more interesting than the average bear.

Take these two points, then add in that a player came out and voted him right away today and I think that there is certainly smoke here.

I've also weighed a couple of possibilities of how this would not work out well for the villagers. Probably tops on that list is that Lathum is the Sympathizer and is deliberately creating an exercise that wastes our time by creating that 1:1 trade that Clap has been pointing out this morning. But I think Lathum would probably have waited one more day to spring that, especially since the Sympathizer role would "scan good".

Overall, I think the risk/reward on this vote beats a random vote on another villager. I'm willing to move if someone can come out and create a more convincing case for getting a wolf than what I see around PB right now.

Oh, and in the event that Lathum is leading us in the wrong direction then at least PB has told us he has a minor role. So we wouldn't be making a really big mistake lynching him, right? That is a very distant consideration in my decision but I figured I would add it as well to more or less wrap up my thought process on the vote as it stands right now.

The only reason I don't like putting together long posts like this on my thoughts is that it potentially provides an outlet for other people to justify their votes. Normally I like to sit on some of this stuff for at least a little while to see how others read the situation.

[Passacaglia]

I'm not sure how much of a backtrack is here. Lathum has made it clear he wants to let us know something about his role and/or involving PB but has also made it clear Danny is not letting him do so. Could be wolf BS or it could mean he caught PB.

But putting it this way helps me get some perspective, and try to see if both sides are right here. Maybe Lathum's role lets him block someone from making an action, and the combination of him choosing to block PB, combined with no kill, means that Lathum is thinking that the odds are better on PB than anyone else, as far as he's concerned?

[hoopsguy]

Pass, what you are describing sounds an awful lot like the ability we just lost with NTN. I would be mildly surprised if there were that much overlap between good villager roles.

[Lathum]

All I can say is I have my reasons for voting PB. If others chose to follow that's fine, but I am not going to openly campaign against him. Sorry for being so cryptic but I can't go into more detail.

[Passacaglia]

The only reason I don't like putting together long posts like this on my thoughts is that it potentially provides an outlet for other people to justify their votes. Normally I like to sit on some of this stuff for at least a little while to see how others read the situation.

You certainly didn't have to put it in a long post if you didn't want to. I would have been satisfied if all you had said was that it's not just because of Lathum's actions.

[Lathum]

Man, I barely remember the Office Space game -- since I was a wolf, I probably didn't live long. What did I do there?

you were very passive aggressive in defending certain players and possible mechanics and whatnot.

[Passacaglia]

Pass, what you are describing sounds an awful lot like the ability we just lost with NTN. I would be mildly surprised if there were that much overlap between good villager roles.

That's a good point. Then again, we have 20+ people all with some kind of role? I could see it. But I'll have to look up ntn's role again to remind myself.

[Passacaglia]

you were very passive aggressive in defending certain players and possible mechanics and whatnot.

I don't really see myself as passive aggressive here -- just trying to tap in to what everyone is thinking, and how they view the game. And I certainly don't think I'm defending anyone today -- I don't trust anyone, you're all wolves, and the problem is that I can only vote for one of you!

[claphamsa]

whats good enough for you?

All I said was I was voting PB either way.


this tells me its not based off some role, that you just decieed to vote before you went to bed. :)

[Autumn]

An interesting choice to criticize EagleFan. As one of the top vote getters yesterday an attack by the Needies suggests (but certainly doesn't prove) that he's a regular patient. So, why would they direct their attention to someone who might have been a contender again today? NTN coming up good, EagleFan looking good, this leads us to consider PurdueBrad, the other votegetter from yesterday. It makes me wary about chasing PB.

(I think I'm remembering the vote getters correctly though I need to go back and write the numbers down.)

[Passacaglia]

Pass, what you are describing sounds an awful lot like the ability we just lost with NTN. I would be mildly surprised if there were that much overlap between good villager roles.

Just looked -- yeah, what I'm talking about sounds EXACTLY like ntn's role, which is probably what made me think of it. Poo.

[PurdueBrad]

Hey guys, without a reveal from either Lathum or I (which neither do I want nor can either of us do apparently), I have no reason or way to fight this.

Here are my thoughts the rest of the way for the village:

I would assume at least 1 of the first 5 on me are wolves.

I still am very suspicious of Telle (but given my ntn read, take it for what you will)

Martin D mildly pinged me but it is likely me over-personalizing his vote

I'll be around but I laid it all out yesterday. Also, for the seer or anyone else that got info about me last night: I'm probably not worth saving so do NOT reveal in anyway. In fact, I would encourage you to put a vote on me too just so the wolves can't do their own vote analysis.

[Passacaglia]

An interesting choice to criticize EagleFan. As one of the top vote getters yesterday an attack by the Needies suggests (but certainly doesn't prove) that he's a regular patient. So, why would they direct their attention to someone who might have been a contender again today? NTN coming up good, EagleFan looking good, this leads us to consider PurdueBrad, the other votegetter from yesterday. It makes me wary about chasing PB.

(I think I'm remembering the vote getters correctly though I need to go back and write the numbers down.)

I don't like that line of thought at all -- at least the part in bold. It would be a bold wolf move to criticize one of their own when he had a lot of votes on him the day before. But EagleFan is bold enough to try that, IMO.

But thinking of EF, we should probably try to find out if we think we weer v/v/v last night or v/v/w or v/w/w even. I need to get some work done before I can devote myself to finishing the work hoops did documenting all the vote changes, though.

[PurdueBrad]

Danny- is nightfall available?

[hoopsguy]

You certainly didn't have to put it in a long post if you didn't want to. I would have been satisfied if all you had said was that it's not just because of Lathum's actions.

I don't feel like you "lathumed" me into a long post. But when you ask for more details on the thought process I can either give them or clam up. In this case, I chose to give them.

[hoopsguy]

Pass, I can finish the vote change stuff this morning. I just figured if there was conversation going on here and now I would take part in it rather than going back into the old posts again.

[Passacaglia]

Pass, I can finish the vote change stuff this morning. I just figured if there was conversation going on here and now I would take part in it rather than going back into the old posts again.

That makes total sense, and follows my own thinking, that if there was a conversation here, I might as well take part now, and catch up on my work later. :)

[Telle]

All I can say is I have my reasons for voting PB. If others chose to follow that's fine, but I am not going to openly campaign against him. Sorry for being so cryptic but I can't go into more detail.

I just don't know what to make of this. You stand by your vote for him for reasons you can't share, but you're not going to actively encourage others to vote for him, and you've actually questioned those who voted for him along with you.

You'd think that if whatever secret knowledge it is that you have makes you believe that voting off PB would be good for the village, then you'd want the rest of the village to join you in voting for him. This luke-warm "I'm voting for him but do what you want" is puzzling.

[Autumn]

I don't like that line of thought at all -- at least the part in bold. It would be a bold wolf move to criticize one of their own when he had a lot of votes on him the day before. But EagleFan is bold enough to try that, IMO.

What I'm trying to illuminate is the Needies' thought process. Why would they criticize a top vote getter? Doing so makes a case (a weak one, but one) for him being a regular patient. If he is a regular patient why would they do that and possibly give us a bit more information? Either because he's really a Needie, as you posit, or because they want us to focus on PurdueBrad for some reason.

It just strikes me as odd that they wouldn't criticize elsewhere, and try to limit what we have to work with.

[Autumn]

I just don't know what to make of this. You stand by your vote for him for reasons you can't share, but you're not going to actively encourage others to vote for him, and you've actually questioned those who voted for him along with you.

You'd think that if whatever secret knowledge it is that you have makes you believe that voting off PB would be good for the village, then you'd want the rest of the village to join you in voting for him. This luke-warm "I'm voting for him but do what you want" is puzzling.

I have a good guess as to what is going on with Lathum. Essentially imagine that he has acquired a piece of information that does not tell him that PB is bad, but gives him perhaps 50/50 odds that PB versus another player is bad. Therefore, he's targeting his vote on those good odds, while watching to see what the rest of us do. He can't say for sure that it's the right vote, in that case, but is a better possibility than a random target.

[PurdueBrad]

Addendum to my previous post: I also think EF needs to be checked out. After no real scrutiny came to anyone we arrested last game, criticizing a wolf might buy that same security. PLUS, not voting today allows him not to have to give any voting data to be scrutinized. I'm not saying vote him, somebody with some sort of ability should check him out.

[Telle]

I have a good guess as to what is going on with Lathum. Essentially imagine that he has acquired a piece of information that does not tell him that PB is bad, but gives him perhaps 50/50 odds that PB versus another player is bad. Therefore, he's targeting his vote on those good odds, while watching to see what the rest of us do. He can't say for sure that it's the right vote, in that case, but is a better possibility than a random target.

Ahh.. I see. But that line of thinking also leaves him quite a bit of wiggle room if he's actually a wolf doing a gutsy move. If PB comes back good, he can say "Well I wasn't totally sure.. and never told anyone to vote with me."

[PurdueBrad]

"Well I wasn't totally sure.. and never told anyone to vote with me."

And I am very, very afraid of that happening. Although Danny's post about not getting back to him makes me think, from a meta-gaming standpoint, that Lathum is likely good as well.

[Alan T]

Danny- is nightfall available?

I'm not voting a nightfall even if everyone else does. I think there can be some discussion today and I'm interested in seeing how much of a runaway people make this. I actually am very eager to see how people play this one.

I agree that your death is going to answer some questions, but I haven't liked how this run away has gone. I'm just going to see how people play it I guess.

[Danny]

If everyone votes nightfall it will be accepted.

[hoopsguy]

PB, can you quote "Danny's post" or are you talking about something Lathum posted that he says is from Danny?

[Lathum]

this tells me its not based off some role, that you just decieed to vote before you went to bed. :)

c'mon Clap, you gotta realize there is more to it then that.

In fact, I would encourage you to put a vote on me too just so the wolves can't do their own vote analysis.

Huh?

This stinks to me, wolves do analysis? Last I checked the wolves know who the patients are and really don't need to be dependant on analysis.

[hoopsguy]

I'm not voting a nightfall even if everyone else does. I think there can be some discussion today and I'm interested in seeing how much of a runaway people make this. I actually am very eager to see how people play this one.

I agree that your death is going to answer some questions, but I haven't liked how this run away has gone. I'm just going to see how people play it I guess.

Alan, what are your thoughts on PB accepting his death, asking for Nightfall, etc? Does it skew more villager or wolf to you?

[PurdueBrad]

I got back to Lathum, but I guess he left before I did.

#877

[Lathum]

No way I vote nightfall on Day 2

[Autumn]

Ahh.. I see. But that line of thinking also leaves him quite a bit of wiggle room if he's actually a wolf doing a gutsy move. If PB comes back good, he can say "Well I wasn't totally sure.. and never told anyone to vote with me."

Which I think is going to be the hallmark of this game. Everyone having a private role they can't discuss is going to lead to a lot of this. I don't think anyone should feel compelled to follow his vote, perhaps someone else will have been led to a hunch last night.

[Danny]

FWIW, I've gotten questions about different things from lots of people, so from a meta gaming standpoint, that doesn't mean anything.

[Alan T]

Alan, what are your thoughts on PB accepting his death, asking for Nightfall, etc? Does it skew more villager or wolf to you?

My thoughts on him haven't really changed much from yesterday afternoon late. I asked him questions, he answered them and the most important thing to me about yesterday was even though he made some moves that I felt were pointless, I didn't necessarily see an agenda there as I did with others (even if that was mistaken on my part).

He just is continuing that today, he seems like he doesn't have much more that he is going to say beyond what I asked him yesterday. Whether that is because he has a villager role that was instructed that he can't tell anyone of his role, or any information from actions that he did.. or it could be because he is a wolf feeling that is the best way off the hook.

I guess if he is a wolf, I just haven't seen it yet. Of course I've been wrong before, I'm just having a tough time swallowing how easy it has been for others to just accept it though.

[Autumn]

PurdueBrad, rather than just accepting your fate so blindly, it would be nice to hear some analysis from you. Who are you going to vote today?

[DaddyTorgo]

it is day 2 - the common sense rules do say that if lathum is alive tomorrow we should vote him anyways hmm?

[PurdueBrad]

Alan, what are your thoughts on PB accepting his death, asking for Nightfall, etc? Does it skew more villager or wolf to you?

I gotta lot of shit last night for arguing to stay alive during baby bath time (which just so happens to be from 6:30-7:00 CST, middle of hockey game, middle of deadline) that I'm just not putting that effort in again. I laid all my cards that I'm allowed to lay on the table all ready.

Also, side note Alan, if I came off snippy at all, the above may also be why.

[claphamsa]

u bathe the baby for an hour? that is trez wierd!

[claphamsa]

well 30 min is wierd too :)

[PurdueBrad]

PurdueBrad, rather than just accepting your fate so blindly, it would be nice to hear some analysis from you. Who are you going to vote today?

Hey Autumn, my vote should still be pretty obvious from last night but that'll only throw one more person on my heap so right now I'll probably just vote for somebody that is already on me to try to avoid adding to the human pile on.

I also think if you looked above at two of my posts, I laid out all the analysis I have. Telle-suspicious, Martin D's reasoning for voting for me sounded of wolf setting up a defense for later, EF needs looked at, and I think there has to be a wolf somewhere in that first run on me.

[Lathum]

it is day 2 - the common sense rules do say that if lathum is alive tomorrow we should vote him anyways hmm?

why so cut and dry?

What if I am alive tomorrow and there is no night kill?

What then?

[PurdueBrad]

well 30 min is wierd too :)

No, the wife is a lunatic and it's these freaking process it doesn't need to be (particularly during the Pens game). GUH, don't get me started.

[Passacaglia]

FWIW, I've gotten questions about different things from lots of people, so from a meta gaming standpoint, that doesn't mean anything.

Heh, yeah, like when I asked you if there was a 'mechanic' role. :p

[PurdueBrad]

Who are you going to vote today?

Oh, and I may return to my standard vote as well because I'm usually the stubborn/tunnel-visioned one of the two of us, not him, and I'm getting that feeling a bit here.

[Autumn]

u bathe the baby for an hour? that is trez wierd!

Time to check your math ;-)

[DaddyTorgo]

why so cut and dry?

What if I am alive tomorrow and there is no night kill?

What then?

sorry, i failed to put a ;) in that post above.

twas a joke man.

[Abe Sargent]

I don't know what to make of all this

[Passacaglia]

Oh, and I may return to my standard vote as well because I'm usually the stubborn/tunnel-visioned one of the two of us, not him, and I'm getting that feeling a bit here.

PB, that's not the best idea. Personally, I'm interested in making this so that it's not a runaway, and I think Alan is also. At this point, however, I'm not very sure who to vote for to try to get this to be a two-person race. You could really help the village out by picking someone, and giving some reason for it, other than, "well it's my standard vote"

[PurdueBrad]

Okay, I'll commit to one of the following three:

Telle- As I've stated again and again, the moves to seemingly protect ntn, particularly on day 1, struck me as odd.

Martin D- The explanation for his vote, of all the votes I got, seemed to already set forth a defense for being wrong.

Hoopsguy- Showing a bit of tunnel-vision here that I don't normally catch from him. We ARE always on opposite teams, which means that I should probably vote him. And he jumped on quick in the run that I'm convinced has a wolf pushing it.

So it'll be one of those three Pass.

[PurdueBrad]

And he jumped on quick in the run that I'm convinced somewhere in it has a wolf to help push it.



Corrected/clarified a bit.

[Telle]

Well PB, I stated numerous times why I didn't want to vote for ntn. I personally think it's shitty to vote for someone just because you don't like their playing style. So that left you and EagleFan. I didn't feel good about the case against him.. it seemed to me like people were using his playing around as an excuse to vote for him and that seemed like a good way for wolves to hide votes. So that just left you. And yeah I do think you were the unfortunate victim of a random run at that point.. but you were also as good a target as anyone else.

[PurdueBrad]

Which is why I don't fault your vote Telle, just on day 1 the defense of anybody, regardless of reason, doesn't make much sense.

[Alan T]

Telle, who are you going to vote for today?

[PurdueBrad]

Oops, hit the button too soon. But if he had come out bad, then you just tied your rope to an unknown entity that then screws you for the short remainder of your game. That's all. So your vote for me, I don't mind.

[Passacaglia]

Well PB, I stated numerous times why I didn't want to vote for ntn. I personally think it's shitty to vote for someone just because you don't like their playing style. So that left you and EagleFan. I didn't feel good about the case against him.. it seemed to me like people were using his playing around as an excuse to vote for him and that seemed like a good way for wolves to hide votes. So that just left you. And yeah I do think you were the unfortunate victim of a random run at that point.. but you were also as good a target as anyone else.

Honestly, there's no need to start a pity party for ntn. I don't think he gets voted for on Day 1 more often than anyone else.

[PurdueBrad]

Out for lunch duty. Should stop by later.

[hoopsguy]

Concur on NTN - I would guess he lasts longer, on average, in WW games than just about any other player out there.

[hoopsguy]

PB, when you get back can you explain why you think that I have "tunnel vision" today? I think I've laid out my thought processes, on both Days 1 and 2, as explicitly as anyone.

I would understand that you don't like where my Day 2 vote is compared to Day 1, when I was actually in a position of defending you compared to EF/NTN (thought there was a run to protect one of those two) but I don't get the "tunnel vision" comment at all.

[Telle]

Which is why I don't fault your vote Telle, just on day 1 the defense of anybody, regardless of reason, doesn't make much sense.

I wasn't defending ntn.. I was just against the reason that people were using for voting for him. I know there are games where I'm quiet.. mainly because of some mental health issues that sometimes make it difficult for me to interact with others (irony of bringing that up in this game...). So it kind of felt to me like if he's not welcome because he's often quiet, then maybe I wouldn't be welcome either when I'm not feeling my best. So it touched on a personal note for me.

[Autumn]

It's interesting that no other votes have come out so far today. I'm inclined to follow Lathum's lead, in one sense. My other thoughts noted above make me wonder if we shouldn't be pursuing EagleFan, and whether this criticism was meant as cover for him.

[Telle]

Telle, who are you going to vote for today?

I honestly don't know. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to lynch PurdueBrad.. because otherwise we'll just be debating the Lathum vs PB thing for who knows how long. But at the same time I don't wan to just hop on a bandwagon.

Passacaglia.. any reason for all your vote hopping yesterday? EagleFan said that he was just messing around with the whole "being crazy" theme, but you never offered up an explanation of your actions.

[Passacaglia]

Okay, I'll commit to one of the following three:

Telle- As I've stated again and again, the moves to seemingly protect ntn, particularly on day 1, struck me as odd.

Martin D- The explanation for his vote, of all the votes I got, seemed to already set forth a defense for being wrong.

Hoopsguy- Showing a bit of tunnel-vision here that I don't normally catch from him. We ARE always on opposite teams, which means that I should probably vote him. And he jumped on quick in the run that I'm convinced has a wolf pushing it.

So it'll be one of those three Pass.

Thanks for doing this, PB. So you're not looking for people who voted for ntn -- in fact, you're looking exclusively at people who voted to SAVE ntn?

[hoopsguy]

What I'm trying to illuminate is the Needies' thought process. Why would they criticize a top vote getter? Doing so makes a case (a weak one, but one) for him being a regular patient. If he is a regular patient why would they do that and possibly give us a bit more information? Either because he's really a Needie, as you posit, or because they want us to focus on PurdueBrad for some reason.

It just strikes me as odd that they wouldn't criticize elsewhere, and try to limit what we have to work with.

The focus on PB has been due to Lathum's early vote on him, not because EF was blocked from voting. Unless Lathum is a wolf, the wolves could not have known when they submitted their action on EF that Lathum would come after PB right after results were published.

Or am I missing something in the above point?

[Alan T]

I think if people are deadset on lynching PurdueBrad, I'll go along with the day 1 vote idea again. I'll just introduce another candidate.

Vote Eaglefan

[Autumn]

Maybe this got corrected, but the last vote count from Danny I see last night as Poli voting both Abe and Telle. I think that should be just Telle.

[hoopsguy]

Thanks for doing this, PB. So you're not looking for people who voted for ntn -- in fact, you're looking exclusively at people who voted to SAVE ntn?

In my case, I took no action on NTN one way or the other. I just left my vote on EF all day. The act of leaving a vote there could potentially be construed multiple ways, I suppose.

[Danny]

Maybe this got corrected, but the last vote count from Danny I see last night as Poli voting both Abe and Telle. I think that should be just Telle.

Yes, it's just Telle, I forgot to remove Abe's name from the list.

[Autumn]

The focus on PB has been due to Lathum's early vote on him, not because EF was blocked from voting. Unless Lathum is a wolf, the wolves could not have known when they submitted their action on EF that Lathum would come after PB right after results were published.

Or am I missing something in the above point?

I'm not saying people are voting Purdue becuase EagleFan was a Needie target, no.

But I am saying that EagleFan, Purdue and NTN were the three top targets. One was lynched and proven good. The Needies then chose to attack one of the other two. Why did they choose to do that?

Purdue is a target right now bcuase of Lathum, yes. But he would have been high on the talk list today anyway, along with EagleFan, for being a remaining contender from yesterday.

[DaddyTorgo]

I wasn't defending ntn.. I was just against the reason that people were using for voting for him. I know there are games where I'm quiet.. mainly because of some mental health issues that sometimes make it difficult for me to interact with others (irony of bringing that up in this game...). So it kind of felt to me like if he's not welcome because he's often quiet, then maybe I wouldn't be welcome either when I'm not feeling my best. So it touched on a personal note for me.

awwww.

he's welcome and you're welcome. it's just sometimes in games where he has been bad recently or hasn't been bad in a while it's at least a topic of conversation.

but i think frequently he gets a pass on D1, as does Chief on D1-Mondays, and probably a few other people as well.

[Passacaglia]

In my case, I took no action on NTN one way or the other. I just left my vote on EF all day. The act of leaving a vote there could potentially be construed multiple ways, I suppose.

I don't mean to say that your vote was made with the express attempt to save him, just that the people in PB's list all put votes on a top candidate who was not ntn, which had an effect of helping him live.

[Passacaglia]

I don't mean to say that your vote was made with the express attempt to save him, just that the people in PB's list all put votes on a top candidate who was not ntn, which had an effect of helping him live.

Anyway, the one that struck me the most in PB's list (and his reason) was Telle. So Telle goes all out defending a villager, and that strikes you as bad?

[Alan T]

What if Telle wasn't necessarily defending ntn when she was pointing the conversation at PB yesterday?

Why does Telle sound apologetic to PB in discussion directly to him as if understanding she was wrong, yet still say he would be a good choice?

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm not saying people are voting Purdue becuase EagleFan was a Needie target, no.

But I am saying that EagleFan, Purdue and NTN were the three top targets. One was lynched and proven good. The Needies then chose to attack one of the other two. Why did they choose to do that?

Purdue is a target right now bcuase of Lathum, yes. But he would have been high on the talk list today anyway, along with EagleFan, for being a remaining contender from yesterday.

but don't you think looking at your reasoning then that maybe PB isn't a wolf? Why would the wolves be so obvious as to lynch one of the 3, make the other one unable to vote, and thus essentially point us right back at the 3rd? It's like...too easy.

If anything I might argue that EF is the wolf and that by silencing him the wolves are hoping to point the finger at PB. Not that I think this is necessarily true, but maybe it's as true as the idea that PB could be a wolf.

It just seems too "first level thinking" easy that PB is the wolf then. And knowing our crafty wolves they're probably at least on "2nd level" and misdirecting things.

This is where not being able to discuss roles makes things very difficult, because we have no way of group-analyzing Lathum's experience that he can't share with us.

In a way I think it might be an early indication of a limitation of this game that I don't like - because you're essentially forcing everyone to play as islands and stifling group-think and discussion.

[DaddyTorgo]

and that's probably my longest WW-post in several games

[Danny]

but don't you think looking at your reasoning then that maybe PB isn't a wolf? Why would the wolves be so obvious as to lynch one of the 3, make the other one unable to vote, and thus essentially point us right back at the 3rd? It's like...too easy.

If anything I might argue that EF is the wolf and that by silencing him the wolves are hoping to point the finger at PB. Not that I think this is necessarily true, but maybe it's as true as the idea that PB could be a wolf.

It just seems too "first level thinking" easy that PB is the wolf then. And knowing our crafty wolves they're probably at least on "2nd level" and misdirecting things.

This is where not being able to discuss roles makes things very difficult, because we have no way of group-analyzing Lathum's experience that he can't share with us.

In a way I think it might be an early indication of a limitation of this game that I don't like - because you're essentially forcing everyone to play as islands and stifling group-think and discussion.

I don't think it's stifling group-think and discussion. You guys are getting plenty of discussion out of it :). It's different though, I admit.

[DaddyTorgo]

lol

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm not bitching already or anything - jury's still out on it. i'm just commenting that it's making things...different

[Autumn]

but don't you think looking at your reasoning then that maybe PB isn't a wolf? Why would the wolves be so obvious as to lynch one of the 3, make the other one unable to vote, and thus essentially point us right back at the 3rd? It's like...too easy.

If anything I might argue that EF is the wolf and that by silencing him the wolves are hoping to point the finger at PB. Not that I think this is necessarily true, but maybe it's as true as the idea that PB could be a wolf.

It just seems too "first level thinking" easy that PB is the wolf then. And knowing our crafty wolves they're probably at least on "2nd level" and misdirecting things.

This is where not being able to discuss roles makes things very difficult, because we have no way of group-analyzing Lathum's experience that he can't share with us.

In a way I think it might be an early indication of a limitation of this game that I don't like - because you're essentially forcing everyone to play as islands and stifling group-think and discussion.

That's exactly what I'm saying DT, that the attack on EagleFan would seem mostly like to result in more scrutiny on PB, and not on EagleFan. I'm not sure what other motivation for attacking him there would be.

[Danny]

i'm not bitching already or anything - jury's still out on it. i'm just commenting that it's making things...different

Yeah, that's what I was going for. Hopefully in the end everyone has fun and has an interesting experience.

[Telle]

What if Telle wasn't necessarily defending ntn when she was pointing the conversation at PB yesterday?

Why does Telle sound apologetic to PB in discussion directly to him as if understanding she was wrong, yet still say he would be a good choice?

I'm not understanding this. How do I sound apologetic? And what was I wrong about?

[Alan T]

I'm not understanding this. How do I sound apologetic? And what was I wrong about?

Just the tone of your post this morning, you sounded apologetic when responding directly to PB. Maybe I'm reading more into things here. I didn't vote for you afterall, I voted for Eaglefan.. Just an observation I noticed.

[Autumn]

I'm guessing that Lathum has some information that perhaps pins it between Purdue and another being bad, or that at least gives him a greater than average chance that Purdue is bad. However, my thinking above makes me doubt that he is. I'm going to vote EagleFan at this point unless we get some further analysis, or unless the voting makes me doubt myself.

<b>Vote EAGLEFAN</b>

[Telle]

Just the tone of your post this morning, you sounded apologetic when responding directly to PB. Maybe I'm reading more into things here. I didn't vote for you afterall, I voted for Eaglefan.. Just an observation I noticed.

Apologetic about what? Voting for him? I was just explaining why I voted for him. And based on the little bit we've heard from Lathum today, it looks like I may have lucked out with a good Day 1 vote.

[DaddyTorgo]

based on clap and my being on the same page with our thinking. very open to change.

UNVOTE PB
VOTE EAGLEFAN

[DaddyTorgo]

based on autumn and my being on the same page with our thinking. very open to change.

UNVOTE PB
VOTE EAGLEFAN

fixed - autumn not clap

[Telle]

As of post #972:

3 - PurdueBrad - Latham (790), hoopsguy (822), dubb (846)
3 - EagleFan - Alan T (951), Autumn (969), DaddyTorgo (971)

[Telle]

So what's the case against EagleFan? Just that the wolves might have targeted him in order to move discussion away from him? Wouldn't it actually put him more in the spotlight as a person of interest?

[Alan T]

Apologetic about what? Voting for him? I was just explaining why I voted for him. And based on the little bit we've heard from Lathum today, it looks like I may have lucked out with a good Day 1 vote.

Maybe I read more into your post then you intended. The way you used the word unfortunate in regards to the run on PurdueBrad, it made me wonder if you believed in your day 1 vote any more. Which is why I asked you afterward who you were voting for today. Your response to that also didn't seem too sure, and listed PB to understand what is going on between Lathum/PB.

It just got me wondering if your quick flip yesterday wasn't necessarily to protect ntn as your words were saying, but moreso to protect Eaglefan.

I've been wrong before though, so possibly am here too. Like I said before I'm having problems where I am not getting strong wolf vibes from people so far this game, so this might be a reach. I don't expect people to follow me, it seems likely that PurdueBrad is dying today, in which we will still learn something from.

[EagleFan]

A lot of band wagon jumpers against the person who can't even defend himself with a self defense vote. Strikes me as suspicious.

[Telle]

Ah, I see. I labeled the run on PB as unfortunate because of the way it went down. He had one vote, and then simultaneously two others voted on him pretty randomly. So it wasn't a "real" run.. it was just something kind of weird that happened.

I probably will vote vote for PurdueBrad today because I don't like leaving lingering issues. But I was just hoping we'd get more discussion (as we have) rather than us all just jumping on the bandwagon right away.

[Passacaglia]

A lot of band wagon jumpers against the person who can't even defend himself with a self defense vote. Strikes me as suspicious.

How is it suspicious?

[hoopsguy]

EF is probably the only candidate that I would consider moving to, short of someone coming out and saying "Player X is a wolf! I scanned him last night!".

I think I've documented the reasons behind this already. I thought EF was the right scan last night. I can see the seer coming here today, being dismayed by a run on another player, and trying to figure out what the heck is going on when he knows that he has caught a wolf on N1. So he would want to make sure to paint EF as non-trusted, in the event he (seer) ends up dead sometime soon. If he can get momentum behind an EF vote, then his scan choice for tomorrow is either PB or Lathum, depending on how he reads today's events.

Anyway, that is where I'm at right now - trying to figure out if we have an actual seer scan on one of the two people with votes right now.

[hoopsguy]

Danny, when you arrive - can you tell us the order of actions in terms of seer scan versus wolf attack/convert?

Figure I may as well ask, as the second major topic I'm chewing on today is the "no kill" last night.

[Telle]

Well if you're right hoops then haven't you just given away the seer as being one of just a couple of people? Why would you be announcing such a theory like that when there's already some momentum behind an EF vote and probably no need to go saying "Hey everybody! The seer is probably voting for EF!"?

[EagleFan]

How is it suspicious?

Attacking the guy with his hands tied behind his back. If it's not suspicious it's a least a freaking panzy ass thing to do.

[Alan T]

a freaking panzy ass thing to do.

I'm used to being called names in WW games by now :)

Doesn't really affect my desire to vote for you. I'm pretty sure that I'm staying here today.

[Danny]

Danny, when you arrive - can you tell us the order of actions in terms of seer scan versus wolf attack/convert?

Figure I may as well ask, as the second major topic I'm chewing on today is the "no kill" last night.

Kill/protect/convert would come first and then the seer scan.

[Barkeep49]

I this whole movement towards PB and EF is strange. EF much stranger than PB. I'm frankly having trouble wrapping my head around this game, simply as I've been busy so far and so much has happened. I'm inclined to vote for neither PB nor EF. Though if that's what it boils down to I'd go PB before EF. Instead I'm going to go in a completely different direction.

Vote hoopsguy

I feel like he's been on the wolf side of steering as opposed to human.

[Passacaglia]

Attacking the guy with his hands tied behind his back. If it's not suspicious it's a least a freaking panzy ass thing to do.

Who would you suggest the people voting for you move their votes to?

[hoopsguy]

Well if you're right hoops then haven't you just given away the seer as being one of just a couple of people? Why would you be announcing such a theory like that when there's already some momentum behind an EF vote and probably no need to go saying "Hey everybody! The seer is probably voting for EF!"?

Well, me being right would depend on a couple of things happening:
1.) The seer actually agreed with me on the right person to scan last night
2.) They have logged in by now
3.) They have put their vote down already

We've got six votes in the books out of 20 players. We have a few players who have yet to show up today.

I also think that the wolves are naturally on high alert for anyone voting for them, especially when a viable (?) candidate already exists with PurdueBrad.

Anyway, if I have ended up putting the seer in harms way more than they already were with that post, I'm at least a little sorry for doing it.

The one part of the game that I can control is my own vote, and I'm doing the best that I can each day to make it a good one. I've got a day right now that I'm not sure I have a good handle on, and I figure that the majority of the people who are reading this have interests that are aligned with my own. So I'm hoping that posting my thoughts helps create a positive dynamic for me (and others) in reaching a good decision.

[hoopsguy]

Attacking the guy with his hands tied behind his back. If it's not suspicious it's a least a freaking panzy ass thing to do.

I'm used to being called names in WW games by now :)

Doesn't really affect my desire to vote for you. I'm pretty sure that I'm staying here today.

Cut EF a break - Philadelphia fans don't have a very big vocabulary and it is hard to express their thoughts with the nuance that you might expect from other fanbases :)

[PurdueBrad]

Hey, thought about this on lunch duty. This does NOT mean that Lathum is in on it. We had 3 people up yesterday and lynched one. That means that either EF or I would be up today. By criticizing EF, the wolves remove him from the conversation by getting him some cred (see how arrested people were treated last game), that leaves me with the most heat. They got a bonus by getting Lathum to go after me. But WHY me.

A- I hit on something at some point yesterday that is a wolf

B- EF is a wolf and they're trying to shift it

[PurdueBrad]

We've got six votes in the books out of 20 players.


HOLY CRAP, felt like I had 20 votes on me already!

[hoopsguy]

Vote hoopsguy

I feel like he's been on the wolf side of steering as opposed to human.

Nope, not this time around. I'm trying pretty hard to figure out today's votes and I've got a day (today) with more time to spend in-thread than I have for awhile. If people want to follow me, that is fine but I'm just trying to make a good decision with less information than many others, I expect.

However, in a meta-game sense I guess it is good to know that I'm not giving off tells like Passacaglia was last game since you are guessing wrong here :)

[hoopsguy]

One more point on posting "seer" thoughts, and I'm sure that PB especially can attest to this.

If I'm a wolf and think that I've spotted the seer, or narrowed it down to 1-2 players, then I'm keeping that to myself and just offing them at night. I've done this multiple times; it is absolutely a pattern. The last thing, as a wolf, that I would want to do is clue in a bodyguard about who he should be protecting from me.

So, I'm now arguing (I guess) that the fact that I'm publicly talking about potential seer actions is some kind of indicator of my villager-ness.

[The Jackal]

Just caught up and all I really have to say is I'm glad this didn't turn into an all-day runaway on PB, and that this post struck me oddly.

That's a good point. Then again, we have 20+ people all with some kind of role? I could see it. But I'll have to look up ntn's role again to remind myself.

Because of..

Like all groups, each of you is unique and special in your own way and will have something to contribute to the group or some way of getting what you want. Every one of you will have a role. Some roles are listed, many others are not. If you are not a listed role, you may at no point reveal to the group your role. On death, the role and its details will be revealed.

I just remember how I went about dealing with unknown rules/mechanics as a wolf and Pass' post struck me. Dont know if it means anything but it's something I wanted to bring up.

[Passacaglia]

Hey, thought about this on lunch duty. This does NOT mean that Lathum is in on it. We had 3 people up yesterday and lynched one. That means that either EF or I would be up today. By criticizing EF, the wolves remove him from the conversation by getting him some cred (see how arrested people were treated last game), that leaves me with the most heat. They got a bonus by getting Lathum to go after me. But WHY me.

A- I hit on something at some point yesterday that is a wolf

B- EF is a wolf and they're trying to shift it

Actually, I felt that the villager response to people being arrested was pretty appropriate -- basically neutral, recognizing that they could still be either one.

As for WHY you, if your thought is that EF is a wolf, doesn't that simply make you the easiest option?

[hoopsguy]

So I'm trying to figure out - how in the heck are there five people with more posts in this thread than me? And several of them with a ton more posts? :eek::eek::eek:

:rant:

:p

[Passacaglia]

Nope, not this time around. I'm trying pretty hard to figure out today's votes and I've got a day (today) with more time to spend in-thread than I have for awhile. If people want to follow me, that is fine but I'm just trying to make a good decision with less information than many others, I expect.

However, in a meta-game sense I guess it is good to know that I'm not giving off tells like Passacaglia was last game since you are guessing wrong here :)

Heh, I'm half mock offended. I must admit I was thinking similar thoughts when Lathum said I was acting like when I was a wolf in some other game -- just goes to prove to you all that my villager play is just like my wolf play. Therefore, whenever any of you guys think I'm acting like a wolf, I'm actually a villager. :)

[Alan T]

So I'm trying to figure out - how in the heck are there five people with more posts in this thread than me? And several of them with a ton more posts? :eek::eek::eek:

:rant:

:p

You are ahead of me in posts though. :thumbsup:

[PurdueBrad]

As for WHY you, if your thought is that EF is a wolf, doesn't that simply make you the easiest option?

And that was one of my points.

[Passacaglia]

Just caught up and all I really have to say is I'm glad this didn't turn into an all-day runaway on PB, and that this post struck me oddly.



Because of..



I just remember how I went about dealing with unknown rules/mechanics as a wolf and Pass' post struck me. Dont know if it means anything but it's something I wanted to bring up.

I'm not sure how to respond, because I don't know what you're trying to say about my post. I do think you missed some context, though. Yes, I knew we all had roles, but the discussion with hoops was about whether or not two of the roles could have had an overlap such that Lathum's role is similar to ntn's.

[Passacaglia]

And that was one of my points.

Is that what you're trying to say in Point B? I guess I see that. So is Point A based on the assumption that EF is not a wolf?