MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

[MrSerendipity]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

Posted this twice, not sure why you can't see it...


"Andrus that doesn't opt out assuming he stays 4 WAR: $110.25

Andrus that ages along the curve: $65.25 surplus"

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I didn’t miss it. I saw it. Again, my primary point in this entire thing has been the complete disregard of assessing an equal value in this thread in favor of biased personal opinions.

[GamecocksLaw17]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

I didn’t miss it. I saw it. Again, my primary point in this entire thing has been the complete disregard of assessing an equal value in this thread in favor of biased personal opinions.

On that note I'll leave. Its been fun over the years. Just not worth being told I'm using a biased personal opinion when I've used your little equation instead of the surplus math I've used the past 3 seasons. I changed how I did that math to conform to your preferences and it isn't good enough so not sure what else to say.

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[Councilmann_Jamm]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

My primary point is being ignored here. Both of your thoughts are based on your own personal opinions of players. Which again, is totally fine.

Bard, Yankee and myself all got together and nailed down specific WAR values, Surplus formulas and aging trends over the course of a month and half. We then turned around and drafted an entire electronic report to document said values in terms of equal trades, player value and prospect value.

This all took an insane amount of time and dedication. That work helped a number of people identify value and gave them an established groundwork for trades that can work.

And now over the last two weeks, trades are being approved and denied purely based off of opinions of players. In a statistic and metric driven sport, disregarding a player’s worth, as has been done lately, completely negates the point of the thread. I can turn around and tell you that Washington would have to give Texas Robles, Soto, Fedde and more for Mazara but that doesn’t hold any weight outside of what I’m presenting if there is no foundation to the deal.

It is your shared opinion that a 3 year older 3B on an expiring contract is worth 50M in surplus more than 5 years of a SS with equal surplus value. And it’s fine that you hold that opinion. But I most certainly don’t and I’d venture to believe others wouldn’t agree with that sentiment either. Thus we need an agreeable foundation, such as the one that was being used for two months prior to the last two weeks. If we’re making decisions entirely on our own opinions and bias, we’re not helping anybody learn or understand the purpose/reason behind these deals.

Yeah I'll bow out as well. Dont want to involve myself with this if things we say aren't appreciated because they don't fit in with your "formula"

But if you want to be "realistic'. No one is trading a player with a 5 year contract is going to get their surplus value. Their is a reason that player would be traded. I base my trades off value + real life trades that have occurred.

And Machado and Donaldson at 3 months would net you more prospects and value than what your "formula" suggest. Unless the baseball writers that get paid to report these things don't know what they're talking about.

Not saying your formula is wrong. Be proud of your hard work. But it's not the end all be all for the correct answers. And whatever has happened in the last few weeks in this thread didn't involve me I just joined recently. I think you're a little upset that your hard work isn't being followed for every single trade.

I'll still follow this thread and if people ask for trade help I'll send then PM

[Councilmann_Jamm]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

Well with all said on Donaldson I think I'm going back to my original trade idea for him.

Donaldson and Martin for Austin Riley and Touki Toussaint

This gets all the laughs.

[MrSerendipity]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

Yeah I'll bow out as well. Dont want to involve myself with this if things we say aren't appreciated because they don't fit in with your "formula"

But if you want to be "realistic'. No one is trading a player with a 5 year contract is going to get their surplus value. Their is a reason that player would be traded. I base my trades off value + real life trades that have occurred.

And Machado and Donaldson at 3 months would net you more prospects and value than what your "formula" suggest. Unless the baseball writers that get paid to report these things don't know what they're talking about.

Not saying your formula is wrong. Be proud of your hard work. But it's not the end all be all for the correct answers. And whatever has happened in the last few weeks in this thread didn't involve me I just joined recently. I think you're a little upset that your hard work isn't being followed on all things.

I'll still follow this thread and if people ask for trade help I'll send then PM

That is an over-reaction, I’ve said a couple of times that your help is greatly appreciated. I’m ecstatic that you’ve taken any time out of your day to help, which is why I’ve been expressing thanks and gratefulness for your assistance. I would sing praises for Gamecock all day long. Ignoring surplus values based entirely on your own opinion is the only thing I have an issue with because it tosses out every bit of work that an entire group (not just myself) came together to work up. We did that to create a formula for people to learn and adapt from because realistically, there is going to be a day when Bard, you, Gamecock, Hampshire, Yankee and myself don’t have time to do this for people anymore. The more we teach a basic foundation to people, the more likely that others will take the horn when none of us can.

We’ve swayed on a plethora of trades that didn’t match in surplus because it either makes sense or a buying/selling team wouldn’t commit to equating values. Thus personal opinion is actually helpful. It makes total sense that not every value is going to match.

What I think is a problem is when you take two players who statistically have created a surplus of 22M for themselves and then you say one is worth 20M in return and the other is worth 70M.

Surely you can see how claiming a 50M shift in value is probably a little too much personal opinion?

[MrSerendipity]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

On that note I'll leave. Its been fun over the years. Just not worth being told I'm using a biased personal opinion when I've used your little equation instead of the surplus math I've used the past 3 seasons. I changed how I did that math to conform to your preferences and it isn't good enough so not sure what else to say.

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That’s ridiculous. I’ve defended your interpretation of values consistently and talked down members who worked with me on that formula when they were offended by your interpretation of their work and what was “fair.” Presuming I would ever want you to leave the group is insane. Keep in mind, you literally insinuated I was bias less than 24 hours ago.

If it makes you both feel better, I’ll just leave. You guys can manage the thread however you guys like. I didn’t realize presenting a suggestion in using surplus value simply as the foundation of a deal was too much.

[GamecocksLaw17]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

That’s ridiculous. I’ve defended your interpretation of values consistently and talked down members who worked with me on that formula when they were offended by your interpretation of their work and what was “fair.” Presuming I would ever want you to leave the group is insane. Keep in mind, you literally insinuated I was bias less than 24 hours ago.

If it makes you both feel better, I’ll just leave. You guys can manage the thread however you guys like. I didn’t realize presenting a suggestion in using surplus value simply as the foundation of a deal was too much.

I don't see where he did that. Touki and Riley are both 50fv guys and worth like $30-35 million in value. Which is roughly what Donaldson is worth. And I apologized for that claim almost instantly.

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[MrSerendipity]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

I don't see where he did that. Touki and Riley are both 50fv guys and worth like $30-35 million in value. Which is roughly what Donaldson is worth. And I apologized for that claim almost instantly.

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Newcomb was in that deal and he’s worth roughly north of 40M.

[GamecocksLaw17]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

Newcomb was in that deal and he’s worth roughly north of 40M.

I'm pretty sure I commented that the Braves were giving up too much and later said the Riley + Touki deal was about right. There's no reason a Braves team that goes for it by getting Donaldson makes such a big subtraction to their big league rotation

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[HighCmpPct]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

Newcomb was in that deal and he’s worth roughly north of 40M.

Yeah the Touki and Riley deal was my trade idea not his.

[MrSerendipity]

MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

I'm pretty sure I commented that the Braves were giving up too much and later said the Riley + Touki deal was about right. There's no reason a Braves team that goes for it by getting Donaldson makes such a big subtraction to their big league rotation

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Right, you did. But others suggested differently and that is what I’ve been touching on. This was about a proposal that Jamm made and I was comparing it to the proposal he made for Elvis. They were players with equal surplus values that were seeing returns that differed by 50M. That was the only reason I brought anything back up.

Again, I’ll happily step aside and see you guys manage the trade thread. It takes a lot of pressure off of me if anything. I just was excited about the prospect of actually teaching users how to assess value this year because I know realistically, a lot of us won’t be able to contribute at the same level in a few years and I’d hate to see this thread die.

[GamecocksLaw17]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

Right, you did. But others suggested differently and that is what I’ve been touching on. This was about a proposal that Jamm made and I was comparing it to the proposal he made for Elvis. They were players with equal surplus values that were seeing returns that differed by 50M. That was the only reason I brought anything back up.

Again, I’ll happily step aside and see you guys manage the trade thread. It takes a lot of pressure off of me if anything. I just was excited about the prospect of actually teaching users how to assess value this year because I know realistically, a lot of us won’t be able to contribute at the same level in a few years and I’d hate to see this thread die.

You don't need to step aside

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[Bard]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

You guys are doing some serious overreacting haha. I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, and not care as much.

This thread is for people to assist others with trade values. There is always room for improvement and always room for people with snotty attitudes to go away. Some people currently are doing both, and it is steering people away from this thread.

I started thus thread this year to go off of Gamecocks value that he was trying out last year, and some of AC's along with my own. I have found it is a very good method, and some have tried to twist it a bit to make it off in terms of value.

Surplus is not the end all be all, but it is a very good guesstimate. We aren't professionals. We are all random people playing a video game trying to make realistic trades.

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[MrSerendipity]

MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

You don't need to step aside

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My entire stance and without going back and reading, maybe I poorly explained, is simply for us to have a standard foundation to build trades off of. Just so the people who are helping have some form of unified approach and we can utilize the resources we’ve made available to people for learning purposes.

If I came off as “do things my way” I sincerely apologize. I am not the end all, be all of knowledge by any means. My wife can assure you of that. I was simply stating that it would be nice if we can remain relatively consistent in assessing and expressing value. Bard, Yankee and myself were constantly in each other’s DMs working on standardizing as much as possible so we weren’t confusing anyone.

Again, if I came across as possessive or anything, than I do apologize. It’s just hard for me to have spent as much of the time as I have working in this thread and in the log(far more than I’ve played the actual game) and then feel as if it’s being abandoned in favor of individual opinions.

[GamecocksLaw17]

Re: MLB 18 The Show Trade Discussion

You guys are doing some serious overreacting haha. I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, and not care as much.

This thread is for people to assist others with trade values. There is always room for improvement and always room for people with snotty attitudes to go away. Some people currently are doing both, and it is steering people away from this thread.

I started thus thread this year to go off of Gamecocks value that he was trying out last year, and some of AC's along with my own. I have found it is a very good method, and some have tried to twist it a bit to make it off in terms of value.

Surplus is not the end all be all, but it is a very good guesstimate. We aren't professionals. We are all random people playing a video game trying to make realistic trades.

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You're right we got a little overboard.

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