2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

[seanjeezy]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Adam Everett's 15.7 dWAR in 880 games equates to .01772727272etc (is it possible to put bar notation into a post on OS?) dWAR per game.

Adam Everett was a really, really, really, really, really good defensive SS, look at the defensive runs saved from 2003-2007

[G3no_11]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

I'm only going off on you, because you don't understand the fact that I don't want to talk to you.

Importance =/= value. A manager can be very important to a team, but the most anyone's ever given up for a manager is Randy Winn.

Once again, importance =/= value. They signed him to a contract to build around him, started losing, looked to move him a couple years later. Alex Rios and Vernon Wells? Exact same thing.

Comparing the franchise player to a manager... good logic.

[AC]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Adam Everett was a really, really, really, really, really good defensive SS, look at the defensive runs saved from 2003-2007

HOLY MOTHER OF CRAP that's significantly higher than Tulo's...

[AC]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Comparing the franchise player to a manager... good logic.

Using 'franchise player' when describing someone who isn't a Trout/Strasburg/Stanton/Harper. Good logic.

[AC]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

You said NL? Whoops. I'll go check some stats.

Zack Cozart's per game dWAR is 0.0167785234899329. That's better than Tulo's.

[seanjeezy]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

You said NL? Whoops. I'll go check some stats.

I'd like to take on his contract, yep. You mind helping me pick a high B to give them?

Spoiler

Zack Cozart is my highest B, and would be a very nice replacement that could slide Story over *or* move to second himself.

Jose Dariel Abreu is a power hitting 1B. The Rockies had to play Brandon Moss at 1B, but he hit .250~ with 26~ homers, so I'd think they sorta like him.

Kyle Drabek is another extremely high B, and would help their pitching, but is losing prospect value.

Justin Nicolino is a Big 3 guy who's performed well in The Show at only 21. I'd like to keep him.

Roberto Osuna is an 18-year-old youngin who's performed exceptionally at AA and I'd rather keep.

Thoughts?

I think it would have to be a hitter either in the bigs or close to it, so Cozart or Abreu, depending on Story's progress and current ability.

[G3no_11]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Using 'franchise player' when describing someone who isn't a Trout/Strasburg/Stanton/Harper. Good logic.

They have to be very young to be franchise players? Wrong. Ask anyone who the franchise player is for the Rockies... it's Tulo. Again going off of my point.

[AC]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

I think it would have to be a hitter either in the bigs or close to it, so Cozart or Abreu, depending on Story's progress and current ability.

Story is still a D and his hit tool is looking bush-league at this point.

They have to be very young to be franchise players? Wrong. Ask anyone who the franchise player is for the Rockies... it's Tulo. Again going off of my point.

I was deflecting your sarcasm, and it appears any response I give you is met with a contradictory in regards to the 'franchise player' bit. They don't have to be young, they have to have once-every-generation skill. Tulo doesn't.

[TheNumber35]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Anything I say doesn't make a difference to you. If anyone tries to make a point against you, you go off on them and pick out one or two sentences out of a paragraph to bash them on. You said yourself Tulo is equally if not more IMPORTANT than Votto, so I think he should be close to the same value as Votto. I know you would never give 3 A's but he is at least worth 2 A's.

It's not all about statistics, or their swing is pretty, anything like that. It is an important factor of what value the player is to that particular team and what it would take to get them to give him up. They signed him to 10 year contract because they want him to build their team around, not trade him away 2-3 years later for an A+B+C. That's not realistic at all.

Could you say the same thing about Crawford and Gonzalez over in Boston with the contracts? They had gigantic, long-term deals to stay in Boston and be the center pieces of that team. Boston cut them loose to LA, and there's a lot of money involved so they got less than an A, B, C from the deal...and they gave up more.

Different situations, but playing devil's advocate here is interesting.

Also, A-Rod was dealt with a fairly lucrative contract no? For two players as I remember it? That situation more closely parallels this one because of A-Rod's importance to the Rangers. He was the MVP and the force in their lineup, he had the best 3 year stretch of his career and they traded him for less than the Rockies are proposed to be getting in this trade.

Final thing: I never said Votto's stroke was pretty, I said it was pure. There's a difference. Pretty is aesthetic, pure is a mechanical and production thing (imo at least.) Votto hits above .300 with about 25-30 HR per season (excluding the outlier of this season and '07 where he played in only 24 games as a callup.) He has a CAREER OBP of over .400, .415 to be exact, that's outstanding. Tulo's is around .360 I believe. I could dig further but I've got better things to do lol and this post will probably be lost among arguments that have occurred while I was typing it...oh well.

[AC]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

35, based off of memory and memory only, wasn't A-Rod dealt for Alfonso Soriano or something? Can't remember. To Google!

EDIT: Alfonso Soriano and Joaquin Arias... Amazingly, Soriano actually used to be a high quality player (still is, sorta) and that trade may not be as bad as everyone thinks.

[TheNumber35]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

35, based off of memory and memory only, wasn't A-Rod dealt for Alfonso Soriano or something? Can't remember. To Google!

EDIT: Alfonso Soriano and Joaquin Arias... Amazingly, Soriano actually used to be a high quality player (still is, sorta) and that trade may not be as bad as everyone thinks.

It was for Soriano and Joaquin Arias...just looked it up

[G3no_11]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Could you say the same thing about Crawford and Gonzalez over in Boston with the contracts? They had gigantic, long-term deals to stay in Boston and be the center pieces of that team. Boston cut them loose to LA, and there's a lot of money involved so they got less than an A, B, C from the deal...and they gave up more.

Different situations, but playing devil's advocate here is interesting.

Also, A-Rod was dealt with a fairly lucrative contract no? For two players as I remember it? That situation more closely parallels this one because of A-Rod's importance to the Rangers. He was the MVP and the force in their lineup, he had the best 3 year stretch of his career and they traded him for less than the Rockies are proposed to be getting in this trade.

You make valid points. I made the argument much earlier in the thread about how the Rockies view these kind of players. You could be right. But from what I've noticed in the last 10 years is that the Rockies try to find that 1 player to build around and use that player to sell to the fans. They did it with Todd Helton. I'm sure they got rediculous trade offers for him at one point but he was the player the Rockies wanted to keep. The individual players mean a lot more for the Rockies... that's how they sell tickets. Trading Tulo would mean a large loss in attendance.
That's why I said you would have to overpay to get Tulo because it's more than the stats.

It's a team-by-team difference on how they make trades and lock their players up. I know you were just giving an example, but the Red Sox are about the complete opposite in terms of this.

[TheNumber35]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

But regardless, I think the Boston deal this season illustrates what a team could do if a player doesn't perform and the team is losing. I can see the argument now "Oh Boston didn't believe in Crawford like we believe in Tulo!" Oh really? Then why in the bloody hell did they give him $142 million? I don't think you throw that money at someone you don't believe in...


EDIT: Regardless, Colorado may sell tickets because of Tulo...but with his 200M contract off the books, they wouldn't have to sell as many to make up for it.

[AC]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

You make valid points. I made the argument much earlier in the thread about how the Rockies view these kind of players. You could be right. But from what I've noticed in the last 10 years is that the Rockies try to find that 1 player to build around and use that player to sell to the fans. They did it with Todd Helton. I'm sure they got rediculous trade offers for him at one point but he was the player the Rockies wanted to keep. The individual players mean a lot more for the Rockies... that's how they sell tickets. Trading Tulo would mean a large loss in attendance.
That's why I said you would have to overpay to get Tulo because it's more than the stats.

It's a team-by-team difference on how they make trades and lock their players up. I know you were just giving an example, but the Red Sox are about the complete opposite in terms of this.

Why couldn't that be CarGo or Pomeranz (who I'm really really high on)? It could be Arenado. You have guys to build around coming/already there in Cargo's case. If you guys need to rebuild, then you need to rebuild, and trading Tulo would help extremely in that department.

[AC]

Re: 2012 The Show Official Trade Discussion Thread

Geno, how about High A, High B, mid/high B? That's the absolute highest I'm willing to go.