MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Most strikeouts via slider by a LHP in 2011 (Kershaw):

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/24801/kershaw-sliding-into-cy-young-contention

Most effective slider in the majors in 2011 (Kershaw):

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ers=0&sort=3,d

[seanjeezy]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

In theory this is true, but not with regard for Kershaw's slider. Kershaw's slider does not have lots of movement, or lots of speed. Yet, his slider produced the most strikeouts of any LHP in the majors. It wasn't movement, and it certainly wasn't speed, but it worked! I believe around half, over 100, of his ks were by slider.

I read an article about Kershaw where the author said Kershaw's "hard slider" was or would be more effective than a sweeping slider, which I assume he was saying a slider with lots of movement. Anyway, in the game, Kershaw will not get half or more of his strikeouts with his slider, because the game doesn't understand how Kershaw does it with that 83-84 mph so-so movement slider. I think the game gives more to those with lots of speed and perhaps lots of movement--but that is not always the case in real baseball; enter Kershaw

I'm assuming you are the one pitching with Kershaw, correct? Can you post some of your pitch sequences as an example, including location, pitch type, etc. ?

[slinger45]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

great work sean

all in favor or SCEA incorporating your edits into the actual roster update say aye

"aye"

[Jason_19]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Here's the f/x data I pulled from Fangraphs,

If you want to pull your own data, go to the 2011 pitching leaders and set your parameters (IP, year, etc.)

There should be a clickable link that says export data right above the page number, export charts for selection%, velocity, H-movement, V-movement, etc. - you can then combine them into 1 spreadsheet in excel

Awesome. Thanks.

Keep in mind these are gameday classifications, and its damn hard to interpret the data unless you know exactly how much a ball with no spin drops because of gravity lol

Yeah, I completely understand that.

[AUTiger1]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

In the game today Kimbrel threw a pitch that broke like a slider and then at the very last second dove like a 12-6 curve. It was absolutely filthy.

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

I'm assuming you are the one pitching with Kershaw, correct? Can you post some of your pitch sequences as an example, including location, pitch type, etc. ?

Why are you asking me that? I posted Kershaw's stats to show what he does in real life with regard to his slider. I did that because you said something about whiffs and movement--remember? If you mean what I said about Kershaw in this game and the effect of his slider, I can tell you I've played against Kershaw letting the CPU decide what he should throw--and his slider was not used anywhere the frequency as in real life.

Sabathia has a very good movement rating for his slider--in the default roster--something like 91. Kershaw has something like 67. The game thinks Sabathia's slider should be more effective and he uses it more when controlled by the CPU.

None of this Sabathia vs Kershaw has to do with my response to your movement/whiffs post.

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Try to make it as similar to one of the pitches as possible, except for the control rating

If a pitcher has a 4SB, give them a RFB with 0 movement, it will still move a little bit, but not much

If a guy has a RFB with 90 movement for example, give him a 2SFB with 70 movement, they will look similar visually in-game

I'm not totally sure about this, but I think the 4SB movement is related to whiff rates. Last year Vinnie Pestano's 4SB had the highest % of whiffs in the majors at 38.66%, so theoretically if you give Kimbrel a 4SB (his graphs show he did throw a number of pitches with <5 inches of movement), you take his whiff % of 32.41 and divide it by 38.66 to get an 84 movement rating

Why are you asking me that? I posted Kershaw's stats to show what he does in real life with regard to his slider. I did that because you said something about whiffs and movement--remember? If you mean what I said about Kershaw in this game and the effect of his slider, I can tell you I've played against Kershaw letting the CPU decide what he should throw--and his slider was not used anywhere the frequency as in real life.

Sabathia has a very good movement rating for his slider--in the default roster--something like 91. Kershaw has something like 67. The game thinks Sabathia's slider should be more effective and he uses it more when controlled by the CPU.

None of this Sabathia vs Kershaw has to do with my response to your movement/whiffs post.

Apparently you will decide movement based on whiffs, and I gave you Kershaw's stats--simple as that.

[seanjeezy]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Apparently you will decide movement based on whiffs, and I gave you Kershaw's stats--simple as that.

Wow in the quote you just posted I specifically say I think the movement rating for only the 4SB is related to whiffs. Where did I say any of the other pitches are? I was asking for your strikeout sequences because you made it seem like you were having a hard time striking people out using Kershaw's slider or Kimbrel's slurve.

I've posted this numerous times, but Here's my spreadsheet for my movement formulas. These are all based on Brooks Baseball data, but seriously it doesn't matter anymore since you are now on my ignore list.

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

"I'm not totally sure about this, but I think the 4SB movement is related to whiff rates. Last year Vinnie Pestano's 4SB had the highest % of whiffs in the majors at 38.66%, so theoretically if you give Kimbrel a 4SB (his graphs show he did throw a number of pitches with <5 inches of movement), you take his whiff % of 32.41 and divide it by 38.66 to get an 84 movement rating"

You did not say "only" 4SB" but used Pestano as an example and why should anyone think you only applied this to fastballs?

Anyway, since I'm on your ignore list, nothing further from me needs to be said, just wanted to show why I thought, and said, "apparently"...

[Melanconfan]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

bored so I'm going to chart a few sequences with Kershaw for a game with sean's pitch edits. Not every at bat but those worth noting.

vs Cards

Spoiler

Furcal:
FB Ball (should be strike, high outside corner)
FB Strike (middle, inside edge)
FB foul (middle of the plate)
SL foul (low, middle strike zone)
FB foul (high, away out of zone)
SL Ball (low inside)
FB foul (high, middle of plate)
CB foul (would have bounced)
FB K looking (outside edge)

Beltran:
FB strike (middle high)
FB Swinging strike (middle outside edge)
SL Ball (low inside)
SL swinging K (middle in, out of zone)

Craig:
FB swinging strike (belt high inside edge)
FB ball (low inside)
SL foul (middle in)
CC ball (low)
FB flyout (up and in)

Molina:
FB foul (down the middle
CB ball (bounced)
FB foul (low outside corner)
SL ball (low inside)
FB swinging K (just inside)

Descalso:
FB strike (high inside corner)
FB swinging strike (middle high in zone)
SL single (inside edge)

Beltran:
FB ball (low inside)
CC ball (just low outside)
FB ball (away)
FB strike (high in zone)
SL strike (low in zone)
CB swinging K (low out of zone)

Holliday:
FB strike (middle high)
FB strike (inside edge)
SL lineout (low, inside out of zone)

Descalso:
CB ball (low)
SL strike (outside edge)
FB ball (high)
FB strike (low inside corner)
CB single (low)

Furcal:
SL strike (outside edge)
FB strike (middle high)
SL ball (low inside)
SL swinging K (high inside corner)

Freese:
CC ball (outside)
FB strike (low inside corner)
FB ball (high)
SL strike (low)
SL ball (just low inside)
SL flyout (high in zone)

Craig:
FB swinging strike (inside edge)
FB fouled (high out of zone)
FB swinging K (high away)

Jay:
SL ball (low away)
FB away (ball)
FB ball (should have been strike, inside edge)
FB strike (high outside corner)
FB strike (inside edge)
SL goundout (middle in)

Cruz:
SL strike (low in zone)
FB foul (just off outside edge)
SL ball (inside)
FB goundout (outside)

Furcal:
FB strike (low inside)
SL foul (low outside corner)
FB foul (just low, away)
SL ball (inside)
FB swinging k (down the middle)

Beltran:
FB strike (low inside corner)
FB foul (away)
SL groundout (outside)

Holliday:
FB strike (high)
FB ball (just missed low outside corner)
FB swinging strike (low out of zone)
SL double (low in zone)

Some pitch stats:

66 FB
27 SL
8 CB
6 CC

Hitters were 1-17 on FB, 2-10 SL. 4 K's came on FB, 2 on SL, 1 on CB. Swung and missed on 8 FB, 2 SL, 1 CB.

It's a very small sample but I don't feel like there was much in terms of offering at his slider. I did hang several and didn't get burned, but I also had several just barely out of the zone that the batter didn't even flinch at.

I've toyed with pitching in every version of the show I've had and I believe sean's postulate of the 4SB movement being related to whiffs is accurate. However, I also believe movement in general is tied to whiffs, not just for a single pitch. I really don't think, even with near perfect sequencing, I could get batter to whiff on a slider from Kershaw with 44 movement 23% of the time like he does in real life. That's a flaw I've always seen with the pitch edits I've seen folks doing on here over the last few years.

That being said, if anyone has some quality data, or a statement from the SCEA folks I haven't seen that will refute that I would definitely change my opinion.

Also, just to add something else, I think sliders (the pitch) in the game have always been poorly done. I've never seen one that will just drop off the table like say, Joba Chamberlain's does.

[seanjeezy]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Some pitch stats:

66 FB
27 SL
8 CB
6 CC

Hitters were 1-17 on FB, 2-10 SL. 4 K's came on FB, 2 on SL, 1 on CB. Swung and missed on 8 FB, 2 SL, 1 CB.

It's a very small sample but I don't feel like there was much in terms of offering at his slider. I did hang several and didn't get burned, but I also had several just barely out of the zone that the batter didn't even flinch at.

I've toyed with pitching in every version of the show I've had and I believe sean's postulate of the 4SB movement being related to whiffs is accurate. However, I also believe movement in general is tied to whiffs, not just for a single pitch. I really don't think, even with near perfect sequencing, I could get batter to whiff on a slider from Kershaw with 44 movement 23% of the time like he does in real life. That's a flaw I've always seen with the pitch edits I've seen folks doing on here over the last few years.

That being said, if anyone has some quality data, or a statement from the SCEA folks I haven't seen that will refute that I would definitely change my opinion.

Also, just to add something else, I think sliders (the pitch) in the game have always been poorly done. I've never seen one that will just drop off the table like say, Joba Chamberlain's does.

I'm really glad you did this, care to share your settings as well? The reason I ask is because I personally play with timing hitting, and as you well know, confidence plays a huge part in that. I'm sure most of us have experienced this, but when the CPU pitcher gets rolling, it feels like they're unstoppable. For some reason, individual pitch confidence is tied into control and movement, so Kershaw's slider starts with a low confidence rating in-game because it only has 44 movement. Once confidence is built up with that specific pitch, it becomes damn near unhittable with timing hitting, and since the CPU is also using timing hitting, it becomes hard for them as well. The CPU will also stick with one pitch if the user is not having success with it.

A hard short slider should be a much more difficult pitch to hit than a slow sweeping one, but unfortunately the game has no rating for depth, which is why Kershaw's slider is so good

[Melanconfan]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

I'm really glad you did this, care to share your settings as well? The reason I ask is because I personally play with timing hitting, and as you well know, confidence plays a huge part in that. I'm sure most of us have experienced this, but when the CPU pitcher gets rolling, it feels like they're unstoppable. For some reason, individual pitch confidence is tied into control and movement, so Kershaw's slider starts with a low confidence rating in-game because it only has 44 movement. Once confidence is built up with that specific pitch, it becomes damn near unhittable with timing hitting, and since the CPU is also using timing hitting, it becomes hard for them as well. The CPU will also stick with one pitch if the user is not having success with it.

A hard short slider should be a much more difficult pitch to hit than a slow sweeping one, but unfortunately the game has no rating for depth, which is why Kershaw's slider is so good

I believe it was on All-Star with sliders shifted slightly in my favor. Confidence wasn't a problem because after I got the strikeout with the slider vs. Beltran in the first, I don't think the pitch confidence dropped below 2/3 full the rest of the game.

I agree with you when it comes to trying to hit a short slider vs. a big one, but from my experience when using them against the CPU doesn't really have trouble laying off.

Also should this probably have it's own thread so the SCEA dudes don't have to swim through a discussion like this to find suggested corrections?

[seanjeezy]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

I believe it was on All-Star with sliders shifted slightly in my favor. Confidence wasn't a problem because after I got the strikeout with the slider vs. Beltran in the first, I don't think the pitch confidence dropped below 2/3 full the rest of the game.

I agree with you when it comes to trying to hit a short slider vs. a big one, but from my experience when using them against the CPU doesn't really have trouble laying off.

Also should this probably have it's own thread so the SCEA dudes don't have to swim through a discussion like this to find suggested corrections?

Probably, but I'll just post this real quick:

Legend pulse pitching, Nomo's CPU sliders, with CPU contact down 1 extra click:

Kershaw vs D'Backs: 7 IP, 7 H, 7 K

104 pitches - 60 FB, 30 SL, 9 CB, 5 CH

FB - 5-14, 33 swings 7 misses, 2 K
SL - 1-12, 16 swings 5 misses, 5 K

Ahead in the count: 7 FB, 19 SL, 1 CB
FB - 0-1, 3 swings 1 miss, 1 K
SL - 0-6, 9 swings 3 misses, 3 k

Full count: 5 FB, 3 SL
FB - 1-3, 5 swings 1 miss, 1 K
SL - 0-3, 2 swings 1 miss, 2 K

So here I had a 31% whiff rate on his slider, which is no 38.71% but pretty close. Ahead in the count I had better success, and I tried to keep the selection %'s as close as possible.

Obviously this is only one sim, but I'm pretty happy with the results

[JayD]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Braves Tommy Hanson now throws a 2 seam fastball. Here is the link

http://capitolavenueclub.com/?p=5896...m_content=ESPN

[seanjeezy]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Braves Tommy Hanson now throws a 2 seam fastball. Here is the link

http://capitolavenueclub.com/?p=5896...m_content=ESPN

Is he the opening day starter this year? Once I get numerical data on speed and movement I'll add it to the spreadsheet.