MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Shawn Kelley of Mariners fastball in game is 93, links below show 90.8 for last year, and slider is 83 in game but links show 81.9, assuming last year is what you want. Also, just two pitch types are shown for last year, fastball and slider (change-up is given in the game)--I'll let the chart experts weigh in if they find something different.

http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/pitcher/518875/?batters=A&count=AA&pitches=AA&from=3%2F1%2F2011&to=3%2F17%2F2012

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.asp...773&position=P

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

And, aside from what pitch type and speed, control as well. Basically, everything should be based off last year according to you. Buchholz definitely threw a slider in 2010, and he may go back to that pitch.

Except for the 5th or 6th time, he didn't even in 2010, at least not enough for it to not be statistical noise.

pitchfx classification as "slider" in 2010:

Velocity: 89.9 mph
Horizontal: 1.2"
Vertical: 5.9"

pitchfx classification as "slider" in 2011:

Velocity: 90.7 mph
Horizontal: 1.6"
Vertical: 8.4"

pitchfx classification as "cutter" in 2011:

Velocity: 90.9 mph
Horizontal: 0.6"
Vertical: 6.8"

Those are all the same pitch. Buchholz isn't averaging 90+ mph with his slider. Not just because he doesn't throw one, but because it's a cutter anyway. The velocity, horizontal and vertical movements are all within the range of major league cutters. If you read that first link I posted this kind of categorization error is very common and documented.

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Except for the 5th or 6th time, he didn't even in 2010, at least not enough for it to not be statistical noise.

pitchfx classification as "slider" in 2010:

Velocity: 89.9 mph
Horizontal: 1.2"
Vertical: 5.9"

pitchfx classification as "slider" in 2011:

Velocity: 90.7 mph
Horizontal: 1.6"
Vertical: 8.4"

pitchfx classification as "cutter" in 2011:

Velocity: 90.9 mph
Horizontal: 0.6"
Vertical: 6.8"

Those are all the same pitch. Buchholz isn't averaging 90+ mph with his slider. Not just because he doesn't throw one, but because it's a cutter anyway. The velocity, horizontal and vertical movements are all within the range of major league cutters. If you read that first link I posted this kind of categorization error is very common and documented.

"I would have no problem with calling the current incarnation of Buchholz's breaking pitch a cutter, especially given the fact that he's adapted Lester's cutter grip. Buchholz himself has said it's "both" a cutter and a slider, and that he puts some extra pressure on his middle finger to apply more movement when necessary."

The entire article with lots more is here http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...chholzs-slider

Now I'm going to play some baseball, so enjoy!

[gator3guy]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

OK this is a terrible example but I'll throw it out there anyway. Over the last three years Joel Zumaya has averaged 99mph on his fastball. In-game he has a 98 mph fastball, which is his career average. He obviously didn't play last year due to injury, and reports from his showcase during the winter had him at 92mph. It is highly unlikely he will ever hit 100mph ever again, there is even a chance he is done.

Anyway, if SCEA decided to use a career average, Zumaya would still be averaging 98.5mph in next year's iteration because the f/x data still shows a career fastball speed of 98.5mph. If Zumaya ever decided to attempt another comeback, he'd probably be lucky to hit 90mph.

Say he does come back and tries to reinvent himself as a finesse pitcher (LOL). You're telling me you would be OK with a guy throwing in the low 90's in real life hitting 100mph consistently in-game because of his past repertoire?

All I'm saying is that repertoire should be updated yearly because after all, this is a yearly game. Stamina and the /9 ratings should be a three year average, as well as all hitting stats

I'm in agreement with this. I'm not at all opposed to the "/9" being three year averages, but basing the pure stuff (velocity) of a pitcher on 3 year data is just not the right way to do it in my opinion. A lot can happen in 3 years, especially with a pitcher. Some guys go from starter to reliever and gain 3-5 mph on their fastballs. I remember a young Ryan Madson throwing 89-91 as a fringe starter, with an overhand curveball. A couple years later he's pitching in the 8th inning as a setup man throwing 94-96 with a cutter and that devastating changeup. There's a ton more examples, but I think you get the point.

[seanjeezy]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

"I would have no problem with calling the current incarnation of Buchholz's breaking pitch a cutter, especially given the fact that he's adapted Lester's cutter grip. Buchholz himself has said it's "both" a cutter and a slider, and that he puts some extra pressure on his middle finger to apply more movement when necessary."

The entire article with lots more is here http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...chholzs-slider

Now I'm going to play some baseball, so enjoy!

The problem with that article is that it was written before the 2011 season, which is exactly the point Jason, Lomb, and I are trying to make

[dkrause1971]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Shawn Kelley of Mariners fastball in game is 93, links below show 90.8 for last year, and slider is 83 in game but links show 81.9, assuming last year is what you want. Also, just two pitch types are shown for last year, fastball and slider (change-up is given in the game)--I'll let the chart experts weigh in if they find something different.

http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/pitcher/518875/?batters=A&count=AA&pitches=AA&from=3%2F1%2F2011&to=3%2F17%2F2012

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.asp...773&position=P

All i would add is to use the Format the devs want so its clearer.


Player Name: Shawn Kelly -Mariners
What Pitch(s) needs to be added or removed:
Remove Changeup.
http://brooksbaseball.net/player_car...?player=518875
Fastball from 93 to 91.

My own addition
Mariners- George Sherill
Remove Changeup.- throws it 2%.
http://brooksbaseball.net/player_car...?player=430941
4FB 90 to 87.7.
slider 77 to 74.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...291&position=P

Mariners- Steve Delabar
Remove Sinker
http://brooksbaseball.net/player_car...?player=447755

Mariners- Jason Vargas
add Cutter
http://brooksbaseball.net/player_car...?player=450306

[cheechoo98]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Brandon Morrow, Blue Jays

Remove: Splitter

Add: Curveball

References:

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/27/this-is-morrows-statement-year

http://brooksbaseball.net/player_car...?player=453344

Quote:
“That’s something I’ve struggled with throughout my career: throwing too many pitches per inning,” said Morrow. “I get a lot of foul balls because a lot of my stuff has been around the same speed range: hard slider, hard fastball. Guys just sit ‘hard’ and then they’re able to foul off some good pitches. By incorporating my curveball, which is my biggest change-of-speed pitch, I’m hoping it is going to either get some weaker contact earlier in the count or maybe even some more swing-and-misses.”

[AUTiger1]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

All i would add is to use the Format the devs want so its clearer.


Player Name: Shawn Kelly -Mariners
What Pitch(s) needs to be added or removed:
Remove Changeup.
http://brooksbaseball.net/player_car...?player=518875
Fastball from 93 to 91.

My own addition
Mariners- George Sherill
Remove Changeup.- throws it 2%.
http://brooksbaseball.net/player_car...?player=430941
4FB 90 to 87.7.
slider 77 to 74.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...291&position=P

Mariners- Steve Delabar
Remove Sinker
http://brooksbaseball.net/player_car...?player=447755

Mariners- Jason Vargas
add Cutter
http://brooksbaseball.net/player_car...?player=450306

I don't know how to read those charts but I do know that Mike Minor needs to be given a curveball. So if you could please post the info for that so the developers can understand it thank you.

[Qb]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Pittsburgh James McDonald
Add- Slider
Change- Change up from 76 MPH to 80 MPH
Change- Curve from 74 MPH to 76 MPH

Source- http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...523&position=P

The Change up between so off for McDonald makes him very hard to bat against.

Wanted to piggyback on dkrause's changes for James McDonald (PIT). I mentioned before that he throws a knuckle-curve and now I have some evidence:

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Except for the 5th or 6th time, he didn't even in 2010, at least not enough for it to not be statistical noise.

pitchfx classification as "slider" in 2010:

Velocity: 89.9 mph
Horizontal: 1.2"
Vertical: 5.9"

pitchfx classification as "slider" in 2011:

Velocity: 90.7 mph
Horizontal: 1.6"
Vertical: 8.4"

pitchfx classification as "cutter" in 2011:

Velocity: 90.9 mph
Horizontal: 0.6"
Vertical: 6.8"

Those are all the same pitch. Buchholz isn't averaging 90+ mph with his slider. Not just because he doesn't throw one, but because it's a cutter anyway. The velocity, horizontal and vertical movements are all within the range of major league cutters. If you read that first link I posted this kind of categorization error is very common and documented.

The problem with that article is that it was written before the 2011 season, which is exactly the point Jason, Lomb, and I are trying to make

I disagree with you. The article was presented to him for what he said about 2010. Buchholz did throw a slider in 2010 period, and because I said Buchholz threw a slider in 2010 and I stand by that statement.
"I would have no problem with calling the current incarnation of Buchholz's breaking pitch a cutter, especially given the fact that he's adapted Lester's cutter grip. Buchholz himself has said it's "both" a cutter and a slider, and that he puts some extra pressure on his middle finger to apply more movement when necessary."

The article was written March 24, 2011.

Isn't it time to let this go and move on to other things? If what you guys want are velocity and pitch types based off just last year, there is lots of work to do.

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

I disagree with you. The article was presented to him for what he said about 2010. Buchholz did throw a slider in 2010 period, and because I said Buchholz threw a slider in 2010 and I stand by that statement.
"I would have no problem with calling the current incarnation of Buchholz's breaking pitch a cutter, especially given the fact that he's adapted Lester's cutter grip. Buchholz himself has said it's "both" a cutter and a slider, and that he puts some extra pressure on his middle finger to apply more movement when necessary."

The article was written March 24, 2011.

Isn't it time to let this go and move on to other things? If what you guys want are velocity and pitch types based off just last year, there is lots of work to do.

The article was about a different version of Clay Buchholz than exists today. If you want a 2012 Clay Buchholz it's the guy who threw fastball, cutter, change, 2-seamer, and 12-6 curve last year. If you want a pre-2010 Clay Buchholz it's the guy who threw fastball, change, curve, slider. The 2010 version of Clay Buchholz has no place in this game.

I don't know why you keep getting hung up on seasons that are in the past. No one is going to go through all major league pitchers on all rosters and make them 2011-12 correct. The point of this thread is and has in the past been to update players whose repertoires don't reflect their current arsenal. If you consider pre-2010 Clay and post-2010 Clay different pitchers (they are) then the guy you're suggesting hasn't existed for several years.

Even your article comes to the conclusion that Clay was throwing a cutter in 2010. It looks like a cutter, it no longer resembled his (lousy) slider, and he throws it in fastball counts and uses it as a moving fastball. Giving him a breaking pitch instead is just running totally contrary to who he is as a pitcher these days.

The reason I'm harping on this is because you're drawing conclusions that are fundamentally flawed because they result in pitchers having pitches that they simply do not have. The product of that is pitchers in-game who won't reflect their real life makeup. A big part of Clay's success that past couple seasons has been has change into a guy with a cutter and you just want to ignore that for really incomprehensible reasons.

[seanjeezy]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

I disagree with you. The article was presented to him for what he said about 2010. Buchholz did throw a slider in 2010 period, and because I said Buchholz threw a slider in 2010 and I stand by that statement.
"I would have no problem with calling the current incarnation of Buchholz's breaking pitch a cutter, especially given the fact that he's adapted Lester's cutter grip. Buchholz himself has said it's "both" a cutter and a slider, and that he puts some extra pressure on his middle finger to apply more movement when necessary."

The article was written March 24, 2011.

Isn't it time to let this go and move on to other things? If what you guys want are velocity and pitch types based off just last year, there is lots of work to do.

LOL you do realize that every site that has pitch f/x has yearly totals as well? It would take no longer to look at yearly data than it does career data. Give me 24 hours and I'll post a spreadsheet with all pitch types corrected for all 30 teams. If I can do it by myself in one day, SCEA should be able to do it as well

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

The article was about a different version of Clay Buchholz than exists today. If you want a 2012 Clay Buchholz it's the guy who threw fastball, cutter, change, 2-seamer, and 12-6 curve last year. If you want a pre-2010 Clay Buchholz it's the guy who threw fastball, change, curve, slider. The 2010 version of Clay Buchholz has no place in this game.

I don't know why you keep getting hung up on seasons that are in the past. No one is going to go through all major league pitchers on all rosters and make them 2011-12 correct. The point of this thread is and has in the past been to update players whose repertoires don't reflect their current arsenal. If you consider pre-2010 Clay and post-2010 Clay different pitchers (they are) then the guy you're suggesting hasn't existed for several years.

Even your article comes to the conclusion that Clay was throwing a cutter in 2010. It looks like a cutter, it no longer resembled his (lousy) slider, and he throws it in fastball counts and uses it as a moving fastball. Giving him a breaking pitch instead is just running totally contrary to who he is as a pitcher these days.

The reason I'm harping on this is because you're drawing conclusions that are fundamentally flawed because they result in pitchers having pitches that they simply do not have. The product of that is pitchers in-game who won't reflect their real life makeup. A big part of Clay's success that past couple seasons has been has change into a guy with a cutter and you just want to ignore that for really incomprehensible reasons.

Well, you replied to my post saying Buchholz threw a slider in 2010 and seemed to disagree. The post to which you replied only concerned 2010, and that seemed to be an issue with you. Buchholz himself said it was, and I quote, both a cutter and slider, and the article was written March 24, 2011.

I am not disputing what Buchholz said, but apparently you are. OK, you know more about what Buchholz throws than Buchholz himself. End of discussion for me.

I have better things to do than continue this discussion with you.


Have a nice day!

Note: I have said all I feel necessary about Buchholz and his slider. As Captain Kirk said, over and out.

[Cavicchi]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

LOL you do realize that every site that has pitch f/x has yearly totals as well? It would take no longer to look at yearly data than it does career data. Give me 24 hours and I'll post a spreadsheet with all pitch types corrected for all 30 teams. If I can do it by myself in one day, SCEA should be able to do it as well

OK, but why are you telling me this?

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: MLB 12 The Show Pitch Repertoires Corrections Thread

Well, you replied to my post saying Buchholz threw a slider in 2010 and seemed to disagree. The post to which you replied only concerned 2010, and that seemed to be an issue with you. Buchholz himself said it was, and I quote, both a cutter and slider, and the article was written March 24, 2011.

I am not disputing what Buchholz said, but apparently you are. OK, you know more about what Buchholz throws than Buchholz himself. End of discussion for me.

I have better things to do than continue this discussion with you.


Have a nice day!

Note: I have said all I feel necessary about Buchholz and his slider. As Captain Kirk said, over and out.

Pitch grips are a dime a dozen and yes I'm knowingly contradicting what the man himself said. When a RHP is throwing a pitch 90 mph without relatively less vertical movement compared to his fastball, an inch and a half of break away from RHH, and using it as a fastball it's a cutter. So far as categorization goes since a distinction on The Show roster needs to be made between a cutter (fastball derivative) and slider (breaking pitch) the accurate representation of the pitch is a cutter. Clay with a slider makes no sense as of 2012. The break and velocity numbers are irrefutable. Even in that article the author notes Clay calls it a slider and yet the author comes to the conclusion it's a cutter. Why? Velocity, movement, and usage.