The LeBron James Thread

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  • King_B_Mack
    All Star
    • Jan 2009
    • 24450

    #11641
    Re: The LeBron James Thread

    Why are people talking about sucking in the first three quarters as if the only way to assess clutch is if you didn't do **** during the first three quarters. When it comes to determining clutch between players the caliber of LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Anthony and so on (because those are really the only caliber players that the term is used for) there aren't many games that they suck for three quarters and then show up in the fourth. So who gives a damn what if you suck for three quarters and then show up in the fourth?

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    • The 24th Letter
      ERA
      • Oct 2007
      • 39373

      #11642
      Despite what you did the first 3 quarters, the 4th quarter, simply put, is the last chance you have to outscore your opponent...therefore it's when the pressure is highest...the ability to perform at a high level in this situation is important.

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      • BringTheHeat
        MVP
        • Jan 2012
        • 2264

        #11643
        Re: The LeBron James Thread

        The reason the 4th is more important, to me, is not only are you working against the other team, and the score..but you're running out of time, there's urgency in the 4th that there isn't in the first.
        "To the last minute, to the last second, to the last man, we fight"

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        • ojandpizza
          Hall Of Fame
          • Apr 2011
          • 29807

          #11644
          Originally posted by King_B_Mack
          Why are people talking about sucking in the first three quarters as if the only way to assess clutch is if you didn't do **** during the first three quarters. When it comes to determining clutch between players the caliber of LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Anthony and so on (because those are really the only caliber players that the term is used for) there aren't many games that they suck for three quarters and then show up in the fourth. So who gives a damn what if you suck for three quarters and then show up in the fourth?
          I didn't mean it that way. It was more of a "what if" than something that consistently happens.

          Comment

          • King_B_Mack
            All Star
            • Jan 2009
            • 24450

            #11645
            Re: The LeBron James Thread

            Originally posted by ojandpizza
            I didn't mean it that way. It was more of a "what if" than something that consistently happens.
            No I get that totally, but the point still stands. Who cares? So we eliminate the idea of clutch because you sucked for three quarters and showed up in the fourth in like 5-10 (maybe less) games of an 82 game season plus playoffs?

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            • ojandpizza
              Hall Of Fame
              • Apr 2011
              • 29807

              #11646
              Originally posted by King_B_Mack
              No I get that totally, but the point still stands. Who cares? So we eliminate the idea of clutch because you sucked for three quarters and showed up in the fourth in like 5-10 (maybe less) games of an 82 game season plus playoffs?
              No, I wasn't say that at all.. At least I wasn't trying to.

              I just meant when you look at the total outcome of a game.. Say you win by 1 point. It's hard to say a layup in the last minute of the game was any more important than one during the first minute of game.. You miss either of them you lose, doesn't matter which one it is..

              But I said at the end of that post that being able to close out the tight games is very important. Meaning that clutch performance is important.

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              • Suntan Superman
                ****
                • Feb 2009
                • 7135

                #11647
                There is no requisite to suck for three quarters, but the point still stands. It doesn't actually mean any more in the fourth quarter than it does in the fourth. Just because the media fantasizes heroes out of variable clutch situations, doesn't necessarily mean there's more pressure. And maybe if you played with the same sense of urgency in the first instead of the fourth, you wouldn't need to be "clutch"a therefore eliminating the need all together.

                Its a completely arbitrary and essentially meaningless term, coined by media heads who require a story to create heroes out people playing a damn game.
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                • Suntan Superman
                  ****
                  • Feb 2009
                  • 7135

                  #11648
                  And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to change anyones mind here, we've all been forcefed this idyllic view of a superstar, and amongst the requirements is this phantasm "clutch" factor. You all can drool over his gaudy "clutch" numbers, (and they are impressive, there is every reason to drool, lol) I still think "clutch" is a stupid factor in evaluating a player.
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                  • BringTheHeat
                    MVP
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 2264

                    #11649
                    Re: The LeBron James Thread

                    Originally posted by Suntan Superman
                    Just because the media fantasizes heroes out of variable clutch situations, doesn't necessarily mean there's more pressure. And maybe if you played with the same sense of urgency in the first instead of the fourth, you wouldn't need to be "clutch"a therefore eliminating the need all together.

                    Its a completely arbitrary and essentially meaningless term, coined by media heads who require a story to create heroes out people playing a damn game.
                    What if the two teams are equal? What if no matter what, it comes down to that last minute? Wouldn't you agree there's more pressure then?

                    As for the second part..about creating heroes out of playing a game. I'm just going to say for me personally..and while yes I have other, more "important" inspirations, the players in the NBA are considered heroes and inspirations to some. LeBron is a huge inspiration for me, just the rise and fall of him, to rise again through all that scrutiny and hatred, to look at himself and blame himself and better himself after that loss to Dallas.

                    Jordan did it too, Jordan proved that no matter what, you don't quit, if you work your *** off day in and day out, you'll get to where you wanna get to.

                    Sure they aren't "heroes" per say, and basketball is just a game, but I just feel there's so much more to basketball than the scoreboard.
                    "To the last minute, to the last second, to the last man, we fight"

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                    • Suntan Superman
                      ****
                      • Feb 2009
                      • 7135

                      #11650
                      Re: The LeBron James Thread

                      Originally posted by BringTheHeat
                      What if the two teams are equal? What if no matter what, it comes down to that last minute? Wouldn't you agree there's more pressure then?
                      Statistically, this is still far too random of a sport for it to always come down to the last minute, there is no "no matter what" in this scenario.

                      Originally posted by BringTheHeat
                      As for the second part..about creating heroes out of playing a game. I'm just going to say for me personally..and while yes I have other, more "important" inspirations, the players in the NBA are considered heroes and inspirations to some. LeBron is a huge inspiration for me, just the rise and fall of him, to rise again through all that scrutiny and hatred, to look at himself and blame himself and better himself after that loss to Dallas.

                      Jordan did it too, Jordan proved that no matter what, you don't quit, if you work your *** off day in and day out, you'll get to where you wanna get to.

                      Sure they aren't "heroes" per say, and basketball is just a game, but I just feel there's so much more to basketball than the scoreboard.
                      That's great, it doesn't change the fact that it's mostly media sensationalism around sports that is the driving factor behind any giving a crap about anyone being "clutch" or "anti-clutch"
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                      • King_B_Mack
                        All Star
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 24450

                        #11651
                        Re: The LeBron James Thread

                        Originally posted by Suntan Superman
                        Statistically, this is still far too random of a sport for it to always come down to the last minute, there is no "no matter what" in this scenario.



                        That's great, it doesn't change the fact that it's mostly media sensationalism around sports that is the driving factor behind any giving a crap about anyone being "clutch" or "anti-clutch"
                        No, you're making the wrong argument for the wrong discussion. I get it, you wanna harp on the media and that's all well and good because lord knows there's plenty to harp on them about, but your argument is ridiculous. It's not the media that drives the argument of clutch and it's not something where if there was no media then there would be no clutch. Because at the end of the day whether the media is ragging and throwing out buzzwords or not there's a clock that's going to countdown to the end of the ball game and in that situation you want guys on the floor that can put the ball in the basket. The media isn't dictating to Pop that his best players are on the floor in the last two minutes of a close game. That's good coaching and he knows the guys he send out there can put the ball in the hole and make stops. When the team is down and they draw up a play that's designed to get their best player a shot to tie or win the game in the last five seconds it isn't media sensationalism that's driving that decision, it's the fact that that guy is your best chance to accomplish that goal because you know he more often than not is going to put the ball in the hole.

                        The reason why the jumpshot is more important in the fourth quarter than the one in the first is because the one in the first doesn't directly cause you to win or lose the game. It's easy to sit here at your computer right now and talk about missing an easy layup in the first quarter and then losing by one point and trying to point to that layup as the reason you lost. There's three quarters of basketball left to play at that point to overcome that error. If you miss that last jumper in the fourth, that's it. You already lost. Again if you wanna rag on the media, then start a thread somewhere about the problems with sports media but don't try to make your argument by grasping at straws with something like this.

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                        • Suntan Superman
                          ****
                          • Feb 2009
                          • 7135

                          #11652
                          Re: The LeBron James Thread

                          No, the media is exasperating the problem. You CAN point to that layup, especially since a layup should be far easier to make than a jumpshot. Again, if players played with same amount of urgency in the first, as they supposedly do in the fourth, then the "clutch" factor wouldn't even matter. All that matters at the end of the day is that you score the points. I mean, let's look at 2011-2012 "clutch" stats per 48 minutes.

                          Tops in FG%
                          Tony Allen, Andrew Bynum, Kenneth Faried, DeAndre Jordan, Chuck Hayes.
                          Tops in Points
                          Kyrie Irving, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, LeBron James, Andrea Bargnani
                          Tops in Blocks
                          Serge Ibaka, James Johnson, Elton Brand, Tristan Thompson, Dwight Howard
                          Tops in Steals
                          Iman Shumpert, Nate Robinson, Chris Paul, Greg Monroe, Klay Thompson

                          19 different players in different categories. All of these things are contributing to winning, but do we consider all of these guys in the same echelon of clutch? Or do we determine who is clutch by range of opportunity? None of the leaders in FG% are the primary scoring option on their team, heck they aren't even second(maybe Bynum in LA), so are the equally not clutch, because they don't have the opportunity to be clutch? In that regard, is clutch really a fair assessment of talent or ability? Obviously we're combining clutch with other things, but as an isolated statistic of who should be on the court in the final five minutes of a game +/- 5 points, there is really no indeterminate factor there.

                          And again, if a team plays with the same urgency in the first as they do in the fourth, what does being clutch even matter?

                          Edit: Stats taken from http://www.82games.com/CSORT15.HTM
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                          • d11king
                            MVP
                            • Feb 2011
                            • 2716

                            #11653
                            Re: The LeBron James Thread

                            Posted in another thread

                            Originally posted by d11king
                            To be honest, IMO there is no such thing as clutch. When I played basketball I was unfazed by the term "pressure." So if someone hits a shot at a certain point in the game, to me he just hit the shot... Kevin Durant last year against the Lakers in Game 4 when he hit the 3 against MWP from straight away with however many seconds left... sure people can say it's clutch, but to me Kevin Durant hits that shot anytime any day, that's his shot. Because of the situation if you wanna call it clutch go ahead but it's just a shot. If he missed it, I would've just said he missed the shot. He's probably a 37% 3PT shooter, so when it left his hand, he had a 37% chance of making the shot. That shot happened to connect. ESPN wants to give all these fancy terms and PER ratings and definitions of certain situations and we all believe the hype... I don't need a PER sheet or some fancy term to tell me you don't want the ball in Kevin Durant's hands in the last minute of a close ball game. If he makes it he makes it, if he doesn't, he doesn't.

                            To paraphrase Tom Brady, "when you know what you have to do in order to win, all you have to do is go out there and execute...."

                            Pressure is state of mind and clutch is just some fancy term we like to say to hype up the situation.

                            EDIT: ESPN says that clutch in terms of basketball, is less than 5 minutes on the game with the deficit not exceeding 5 points. IMO, that's not clutch. That's just a really good game. Then it'll come down to who makes the shot... Looking back at history, you think of the best "clutch" players, these were also some of the best players in the league. Think of all the game-winners and "clutch" baskets Jordan hit. Now look at where Jordan ranks all time.. We tried labeling Adam Vinetiari a clutch kicker.. He wasn't clutch, he was a really good kicker who hardly missed. So because he hits in the Super Bowl makes him clutch?? I tried finding a counter-argument for David Freese and his World Series clutch performance, but couldn't muster anything haha.

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                            • ojandpizza
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Apr 2011
                              • 29807

                              #11654
                              Don't know if this was mentioned here.. But when LeBron reached 20,000 he also became the second fastest player to 20,000/5,000/5,000 behind Big-O.. Pretty impressive feat to accomplish it that quickly in the modern era.

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                              • Sam Marlowe
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2010
                                • 1230

                                #11655
                                Re: The LeBron James Thread

                                Originally posted by ojandpizza
                                Don't know if this was mentioned here.. But when LeBron reached 20,000 he also became the second fastest player to 20,000/5,000/5,000 behind Big-O.. Pretty impressive feat to accomplish it that quickly in the modern era.
                                I would love to see a games played stat in relation to these "records".

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