CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

[23]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

Ive heard lots of radio-types describe fans as not caring about how the money is split, what the agreements are...as long as the sport (basketball/football) continues at its normally scheduled time.

The average fan casually doesnt care and doesnt care to get into the economics of it thats why. Its always easier to just say I dont care.

But when i get on messageboards, it seems totally opposite everyone really DOES care how much the players make, how much the owners make, how the revenues are split.

Seems like these people look further into whats going on behind what they see on tv.

Im actually one of those people who really doesnt care, its all entertainment none of their financial models will affect me unless NBA League Pass goes up in price so why should I care.

Oh but sir it will go up, and so will ticket prices, mechandise, etc.. and they have been

If the owners decide that the players should have to play for free so they can make all profit...cool with me. If the players salaries force every team to operate in the red...so what. As long as when I sit down at 7:00 pm eastern time SOMEBODY (other than the Hawks or Bobcats) are on the television all is well in the Hova household.

If everybody operates in the red in any business for too long, that business is going to be shut down, and you wont even be watching the Hawks on tv.

We dont get anything other than being entertained, if our favorite team wins the title, we have to pay money for the memorabilia, no bonus paychecks for loyalty, no kickbacks for support. All we get is the action ON the Court. Thats it...

Fine, but you're ONLY looking at the entertainment part of it..there is also a huge business aspect that affects everything you see, including the on court product.

I miss summer league, Dante and Galante, grainy footage from atdhe links.
Just bring back basketball man, its only so many times i can watch Burn Notice and Suits.

/rant completed

[/QUOTE]

And therefore teams operating in the red is already affecting your entertainment because you wont be seeing a summer league and its a chance you wont be seeing alot of reg season games either.

[da ThRONe]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

Ive heard lots of radio-types describe fans as not caring about how the money is split, what the agreements are...as long as the sport (basketball/football) continues at its normally scheduled time.

But when i get on messageboards, it seems totally opposite everyone really DOES care how much the players make, how much the owners make, how the revenues are split.

Im actually one of those people who really doesnt care, its all entertainment none of their financial models will affect me unless NBA League Pass goes up in price so why should I care. If the owners decide that the players should have to play for free so they can make all profit...cool with me. If the players salaries force every team to operate in the red...so what. As long as when I sit down at 7:00 pm eastern time SOMEBODY (other than the Hawks or Bobcats) are on the television all is well in the Hova household.

We dont get anything other than being entertained, if our favorite team wins the title, we have to pay money for the memorabilia, no bonus paychecks for loyalty, no kickbacks for support. All we get is the action ON the Court. Thats it...

I miss summer league, Dante and Galante, grainy footage from atdhe links.
Just bring back basketball man, its only so many times i can watch Burn Notice and Suits.

/rant completed

The problem Tehova is we have been trained as Americans to only look at the small picture, and to ignore the glaring cesspool in the later future.

Owners are no longer just happy owning, they want to turn profits. Which is prefectly ok. The problem is they already allowed a business model that not conducive to turning big profits. That coupled with the poor personnel and contract decision has them looking @record loses. The league is being poorly marketed and the new CBA is the leagues chance to solve a lot of issues most of which are self-inflicted

[mkharsh33]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

It's funny, but I'm old enough to remember when the "Bird Rights" clause was created...the league did NOT want players moving around (and that's what also created dynasties). Now the league doesn't really care about this... I think one of the greatest issues that has to be considered is contract development to a hard cap. I just don't see how a team can resign one of their own players to a contract that exceeds the cap in large dollar amounts. I understand the concept of it (teams retaining their own players) but if you're going to do this, then you MUST lower the low end contracts for role players and 10-15th bench players. (And I also think the league needs to have only 13 players per team max and re-develop it's minor league concept to mirror that of MLB).

The problem is that no one really knows what the owners are making because the marker they are using is different for each team. And, they're going back 5 years ago to make their comparisons (and some teams were in different states of transition - shoot, OKC didn't exist then and the Sonics were in bad shape... you can't really use that info.).

This will drag out for a LONG time. IMO, we will NOT have a 2011-2012 season...

[Drewski]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

So I guess, my question now becomes, if we DO lost the entire 2011-2012 season - does that mean the 2012 FA's are automatically in the FA pool? I question this because of guys like Dwight and CP3 - if there's a lockout, their contract can't be negotiated/traded/worked out... and if their contract expires under the current CBA situation, wouldn't that make them unrestricted free agents? So long as the lockout lasts into next years FA period? If so, wow

[simgamer0005]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

The problem Tehova is we have been trained as Americans to only look at the small picture, and to ignore the glaring cesspool in the later future.

Yes, this is true. it is a good skill to focus on things, but we can't ignore the later future. Basketball can be so that it does not require changes year to year. If the game were right, then we wouldn't need to constantly debate ways to fix it with new things. And it's not that things can't be changed from time to time. Sometimes it's natural for the game to evolve, but there's a limit and if we don't identify the specific things then how will we solve it?

Owners are no longer just happy owning, they want to turn profits. Which is prefectly ok. The problem is they already allowed a business model that not conducive to turning big profits. That coupled with the poor personnel and contract decision has them looking @record loses. The league is being poorly marketed and the new CBA is the leagues chance to solve a lot of issues most of which are self-inflicted

Well I just find it interesting that hear we are in an uncertain time. many people don't even expect there to be an nba season. Charles Barkley thinks the NBA lockout could wipe out season, but says that owners aren't to blame. So then who or what is to blame. Maybe no one knows or it is a debate, why can't we just go back to basics? How can you worry about the CBA or the NBA next season. Is that more important than the rules of college hoops or the nba? Maybe it would help everyone get on the same page if they corrected the rules and kept it simpler. There have been many good suggestions on here allowing more hand-checking or limiting the ticky tack fouls or flops. But isn't the solution to flops just allowing the play to go on without calling a foul? when you call a foul you have to choose either offensive or defensive foul. sometimes the call is too close to call and it's better to just not call any foul. (like on some charges and blocks, or on light bumping in the paint or hand-checking)

i think the refs are smart enought to take all these things into account. they've been doing it for years. but you gotta keep it simple and maintain a healthy balance between offense and defense. i think that creates the best conditions for the game of basketball.

[da ThRONe]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

Yes, this is true. it is a good skill to focus on things, but we can't ignore the later future. Basketball can be so that it does not require changes year to year. If the game were right, then we wouldn't need to constantly debate ways to fix it with new things. And it's not that things can't be changed from time to time. Sometimes it's natural for the game to evolve, but there's a limit and if we don't identify the specific things then how will we solve it?



Well I just find it interesting that hear we are in an uncertain time. many people don't even expect there to be an nba season. Charles Barkley thinks the NBA lockout could wipe out season, but says that owners aren't to blame. So then who or what is to blame. Maybe no one knows or it is a debate, why can't we just go back to basics? How can you worry about the CBA or the NBA next season. Is that more important than the rules of college hoops or the nba? Maybe it would help everyone get on the same page if they corrected the rules and kept it simpler. There have been many good suggestions on here allowing more hand-checking or limiting the ticky tack fouls or flops. But isn't the solution to flops just allowing the play to go on without calling a foul? when you call a foul you have to choose either offensive or defensive foul. sometimes the call is too close to call and it's better to just not call any foul. (like on some charges and blocks, or on light bumping in the paint or hand-checking)

i think the refs are smart enought to take all these things into account. they've been doing it for years. but you gotta keep it simple and maintain a healthy balance between offense and defense. i think that creates the best conditions for the game of basketball.

I blame the league for were the NBA is. They failed to market the NBA correctly. They chose to bank on a few teams popularity instead of giving every fan base a reason to support their team. They allowed the players to get to much of the profits to make a solid profit. And I'm convinced that you can't have too much of a yearly sports product in today's society(glad the NFL has backed off the 18games idea). So I blame them the most, the reason I'm on their side is because it's what's best for the game.

[simgamer0005]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

I blame the league for were the NBA is. They failed to market the NBA correctly. They chose to bank on a few teams popularity instead of giving every fan base a reason to support their team. They allowed the players to get to much of the profits to make a solid profit. And I'm convinced that you can't have too much of a yearly sports product in today's society(glad the NFL has backed off the 18games idea). So I blame them the most, the reason I'm on their side is because it's what's best for the game.

I agree I am on their side too because of what is best for the game. I love basketball. If the produce can improve, then I'm all for it, but lets do it the right way. The NBA is different from college hoops. It can be different, sometimes it's better to have the NBA be different then college hoops. I think the NFL season is fine at 16 games. The NBA is long and a lot of teams make the playoffs and that's the way it is. I think we wouldn't think about how long the season is if the rules were more simple and if the game were more enjoyable. i know some people like high scoring games, and sometimes those are good, but teams should also be able to play good defense and be able to defend the basket. Low scoring doesn't have to be bad. Look at soccer, that's low scoring and everyone loves it. Remember the NHL game that was 0-0 going into the last minute and then there was a goal and it ended 1-0. People said that was a really exciting hockey game. so why doesn't the nba allow that stuff happen in basketball?

[tehova]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

The average fan casually doesnt care and doesnt care to get into the economics of it thats why. Its always easier to just say I dont care.




Seems like these people look further into whats going on behind what they see on tv.



Oh but sir it will go up, and so will ticket prices, mechandise, etc.. and they have been



If everybody operates in the red in any business for too long, that business is going to be shut down, and you wont even be watching the Hawks on tv.




Fine, but you're ONLY looking at the entertainment part of it..there is also a huge business aspect that affects everything you see, including the on court product.

well yeah, i dont care

[23]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

NO doubt you dont, but the proceeding parts of this offseason is the reason why people who do care, does care.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

As of now, there's no answer for what happens to free agents-to-be in 2012 if this upcoming season is lost.

[da ThRONe]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

As of now, there's no answer for what happens to free agents-to-be in 2012 if this upcoming season is lost.

From what I'm hearing this will count as a year off their contracts.

[Drewski]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

As of now, there's no answer for what happens to free agents-to-be in 2012 if this upcoming season is lost.

Thanks, hadn't heard anything in regards to that.

[Dice]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

So who are we to believe and who's lying?

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/214569/NBA_Responds_In_Length_To_New_York_Times_Article

The NBA released an official statement shortly after midnight Wednesday morning in response to a blogpost from Nate Silver of the New York Times that appeared on Tuesday.

The release reads as follows in bold its entirety:

The information from Forbes that serves as the basis for this article is inaccurate and we do not know how they do their calculations. Forbes does not have the financial data for our teams and the magazine's estimates do not reflect reality.

Precisely to avoid this issue, the NBA and its teams shared their complete league and team audited financials as well as our state and Federal tax returns with the Players Union. Those financials demonstrate the substantial and indisputable losses the league has incurred over the past several years.

The analysis that was posted this afternoon has several significant factual inaccuracies, including:

"(The NBA) is a fundamentally healthy and profitable business"

• The league lost money every year of the just expiring CBA. During these years, the league has never had positive Net Income, EBITDA or Operating Income.

"Many of the purported losses result from an unusual accounting treatment related to depreciation and amortization when a team is sold."

• We use the conventional and generally accepted accounting (GAAP) approach and include in our financial reporting the depreciation of the capital expenditures made in the normal course of business by the teams as they are a substantial and necessary cost of doing business.

We do not include purchase price amortization from when a team is sold or under any circumstances in any of our reported losses. Put simply, none of the league losses are related to team purchase or sale accounting.

"Another trick...moving income from the team's balance sheet to that of a related business like a cable network..."

• All revenues included in Basketball Related Income ("BRI") and reported in our financial statements have been audited by an accounting firm jointly engaged by the players' union and the league. They include basketball revenues reported on related entities' books.

"Ticket revenues... are up 22% compared to 1999-2000 season"

• Ticket revenues have increased 12% over the 10 year period, not the 22% reported.

"17 teams lost money according to Forbes ... Most of these losses were small..."

• Forbes' claim is inaccurate. In 2009-10, 23 teams had net income losses. The losses were in no way "small" as 11 teams lost more than $20M each on a net income basis.

"The profits made by the Knicks, Bulls and Lakers alone would be enough to cover the losses of all 17 unprofitable teams."

• The Knicks, Bulls and Lakers combined net income for 2009-10 does not cover the losses of the 23 unprofitable teams. Our net loss for that year, including the gains from the seven profitable teams, was -$340 million.

"Forbes's estimates -- a $183 million profit for the NBA in 2009-10, and those issued by the league, which claim a $370M loss..."

• Forbes's data is inaccurate. Our losses for 2009-10 were -$340 million, not -$370 million as the article states.

"The leaked financial statements for one team, the New Orleans Hornets, closely matched the Forbes data..."

• This is not an accurate statement as operating income in the latest Forbes data (2009-10) is $5M greater than what is reported in the Hornets audited financials.

[WTF]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

Can't Forbes get in a LOT of trouble posting that stuff? I mean, if the players union and NBA have the same accounting firm looking at their books, shouldn't they be able to know that the Board isn't lying?

[The 24th Letter]

Re: CBA/Lockout Discussion Thread

is it true some players can file for unemployment in some states? lol