Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

[ojandpizza]

kinda long but i need the space to make my point..

despite all that has been said and its obvious that majority of ppl would take wade and ray ray over reggie, ill stand on the other side of the fence and ask for reggie on my team over both of them.

on pure skillset wade and ray ray have the advantage over reggie so i understand the points being made, but to me thats not what its really about. to me its about how do your talents translate to your team winning and being successful.

on ray ray

Spoiler

to add to this point, someone like rudy gay has more talent and if his name were to replace wades or ray rays, i feel like the majority of the folks here would take r.gay. but to me this would be silly because regardless of whatever talents reggie did or did not have, reggies career translated into success. while rudy gays has not translated to much.

so with that being said, im not even entertaining ray ray, because before he got to the celtics and became the 3rd cog in the wheel on a championship team, his talents translated to nothing for the franchise in term of team success at either of his previous 2 stops. he had a good solid nucleus with the bucks (cassell, big dog, ray ray) and a great coach to match (george karl). but he 4 whatever reasons chose to leave that situation. so i dont wanna hear about his talent in seattle because if there wasnt enough talent in seattle he shouldnt have choose to go there over staying with the bucks or going somewhere else. but he left because whatever talent he did see there he must have thought he could make a difference and he didnt in terms of team success. not just w/ winning championship but keeping the franchise relevant yr in yr out. alot of his yrs in seattle he couldnt even get the team to the playoffs. so to me that is that.

on wade

Spoiler

now on to wade, i see alot of folks here value wade in a way that i dont frankly, tho i do acknowledge that he is a great player. i just dont think he's as great as some folks seem to think he is.

so this is how ill some it up, and this is just my opinion from listening to other legends talk about reggie and talk about wade. regardless of their skill level, while folks here at OS would take wade over reggie, i dont believed other former legends who played in the league at a high level would take wade over reggie. again this is opinion.

but to me by his peers and the media reggie is viewed as a legendary player even without a championship. is wade viewed with that level of esteem? i dont think so. regardless of skillset, 50 yrs from now (using wades current point in career, because we dont know his future) whos career will be talked about more? i say Reggies.

even with the 2 rings wade has, reggie career is still considered more legendary than wades, because folks respect that reggie career happened at the wrong time. nobody holds it against him that he couldnt get past jordan, they just respect that he took jordan to the brink.

and now wade has been reduced to an after thought, while you and i still know he matters in terms of the teams success, ultimately he doesnt matter any more. because he no longer matters to history. history is not remembering him right now because all the teams glory is going to lebron james legacy and place in history. history is remembering lbj not wade. from a historical pov wade is being forgotten.

he has been relegated to sidekick from a historical standpoint. he is now pippen. or kobe b4 winning without shaq. no matter how good he really is/was history will give all his contributions towards winning the chip to lebron. even kareem gets slighted because of magic. so what chance does wade currently stand to be remembered historically. so from a historical sense wade is screwed...

he has 2 rings (2) and lbj has 1 and already lbj's shine is sufficating wades shine. and its only going to get worst, because unlike mj and kobe i dont believe wades game will age gracefully. 1 he's undersized and more importanly he's doesnt possess the level of technical skills that are needed to age gracefully, because he gets by on supreme athleticism.

look at this yrs playoffs ppl were suggesting in his home city and nationally, that maybe for lbjs sake in history the heat should trade wade. let that sink in 4 a moment... ppl were talking about the heat trading a player that had won them a championship vs dallas for a player who had choked them away a championship vs dallas.

my point in all this is that while wade's physical talents are greater than reggies, his career will not be viewed as greater by the nba brotherhood nor by history. wade is literally being 4gotten in the mist of the history being created. while miller-time is immortal and will live on 4ever.

so ill wrap this up using the story of troy and achilles to illustrate my main point.

achilles mother told him that if he went to war that he would die in battle, but that his name would ring bells 4ever, or he could stay home where he would live to a grand old age and have a beautiful life with with a super hot wife and all. and achilles chose to be legendary....

so, in this case, you can have your crossovers and whatever else you want to add to the convo as to why you'd rather have wade

ima side with reggie over wade in this debate because;

25yrs from now: History Will Remember Reggie as a Legendary Figure Within the Annals of Basketball. and Wade Will Be Remember as Just One of the Greatest Player to Play, but He Wont Be Legendary.

and after someone breaks ray ray 3pt record history wont even remember he existed, cept by diehards.

Its Reggie Baby (Jay-z voice)

First of all you're saying that Ray and Wade didn't translate their game to wins? They have 3 rings combined to Reggie's zero.. That makes no sense at all..

Also, you said Wade has been reduced to a Pippen role, or Kobe with Shaq role.. What does that matter?? You don't have to be THE GUY on your team to be better than THE GUY from another team.. Pippen was better than Reggie, Young Kobe was better than Reggie, so I don't see at all why that argument matters.. Also there were times in Reggie's career when he wasn't the main guy as well.

You're also severely overrating Reggie's legacy as well.. Saying he will always be "legendary" but people will forget about Wade and Ray, that's a very bold statement. I'm not sure whats supposed to be so legendary about a great shooter who couldn't win. Just saying

[ehh]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

The only difference from your so called "bruisers in the paint" era as in today's era is the fact that hard fouls were just fouls then and often times flagrants now..

There was a lot more to it than just how hard fouls were and you know it, OJ. You're a knowledgeable poster but I'm not sure where your head is at on this one. Everyone who played and coached in the league back then readily admits the game was more physical and that defense can't be played the way it was back in the day anymore. It's such a collective perspective that I feel like the topic isn't really open for debate lol.

Hand checking made it much more difficult to get into the paint and way more bumping and body contact was allowed. Post play, not that it really exists anymore, isn't as physical. Flopping and the officials falling for flops changed the game enough in it's own right.

Basketball is still basketball, but the game was significantly more physical 20 years ago. There were still touch-fouls and ticky-tack calls back then but it was far less frequent than now. Stern wanted more offense 10-12 years ago when the collective talent of the league plummeted and he got it.

[TajDeni]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

So Dwyane Wades skillset hasn't translated to wins? Definitely confused by that one.

my apologies 4 that, alot was being said in the thread. yes wade has had a successful career. mostly that was for ray ray i guess.

4tr ive already stated b4 that i think that wade is a better all around player than reggie, just that id rather have reggie on my team. also ive stated that i think ppl will remember reggie longer than they will remember d-wade. those are my stances, not that as an individual talent i think reggie is better than wade because i dont.

now ray ray, reggie all day! ppl talking bout ray could shoot, drive, crossover, (and he was a mediocre defender til he got to boston btw), or whatever else. but his career and skillset translated to zero team success prior to joinging the celtics.

that is my bad on wade, he is a great player. just so many things to say at 1 time i got my thoughts mixed up by including him in that statement.

i hope that clears things up.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

TajDeni, I'm not understanding your logic at all.

First, you throw in Rudy Gay, and I have no idea what your talking about. He doesn't belong in the discussion with; Allen, Miller, or Wade. So let's throw him out, because it's confusing me.


On Ray Allen: You can't hold it against Ray that he played for the Bucks and Sonics. Those teams were not gonna win it all, it just wasn't happening, he being the main cog, did what he had to do. But, he did not possess the skill set to be the main guy and carry a team to the Finals, he's not that type of player, even in his prime. He found his niche on Boston, and was a key component of that's team's title runs.

On Wade: Nobody has forgotten about him, and nobody will. I'd argue he's the 3rd best SG of all time. His scoring fell off a little bit last year, but he still almost shot 50 percent from the field. He doesn't have to be the main cog anymore with Bron, but he's still a valuable piece to Miami, and would be the number one scorer on most teams, and he still is incredibly efficient.

Wade has already made his case for the Hall, he maintained a great fg% even on those wackass Miami teams. Wade will not be forgotten, and you can't argue Miller is more legendary then Wade.

[TajDeni]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

rudy gay was just an random player i picked with a decent all around skillset, maybe i should have picked a better example because the point seems lost. so thats on me.

far as wade, we just disagree. i dont think that he will be remembered historically with the same fondness some of the other all-time greats will be. besides that i have already acknowledged that he is a great player.

by no means am i suggesting that wade is a subpar player, i just dont regard him as others i guess.

--------------------

let me clarify a point i made about wade....

when i mentioned that wade now falls into the same category as pippen or kobe with shaq what i meant was that historically all his contributions to the success of the team are going to LBJs legacy not his own.

im not one of those ppl that think it was all jordan or all shaq. i think pippen is a great player and that at he was the 2nd best player in the league during the 2nd 3peat.

i think that those laker championships were every bit as much kobe's as shaqs. every bit!

but heres the thing whether we like it or not. pippen doesnt get nearly the credit he earned and deserves. and neither did kobe. pippen is still in that shadow and it took kobe to win without shaq to start to get the credit he truly deserves.

so im saying that wade is now in that same boat, that he is being disrespected by the media right now, because he has been demoted to lebrons sidekick when in reality he is nobodys sidekick. everything now is about lebron. right or wrong and wade is not being given the credit he deserves for his contributions.

its easy to say that he is because were kinda live in the moment, but just take a step back and listen closely to the narrative. its all lebron, as if wade and bosh arent even there. its just my opinion and ultimately time will tell. but i think they are settin wade up to be 4gotten. not in the mind of diehards. from a championship standpoint bron was a good look for wade, but from a historical standpoint i think it was a disaster. only thing i hope is that wade has made his peace with it. theres a reason you cant see the stars during the day, because the sun is too bright. sometimes arother persons flame shines so bright that it dwarfs your own and your own brillance gets lost in the light.

again this all my spidey-sense. just what i think. but ill leave yall with this that i think illustrates the point.

i seen a interview he did on espn and maybe some of yall seen it also.

hanna storm "your a 2 time champion and seems like everyone has 4gotten about d-wade.".

wade: "i know right!" then he went into some other things. but i believe that initial gut response is pure honesty.

just my take. i understand we agree. we shall see tho.

[ojandpizza]

There was a lot more to it than just how hard fouls were and you know it, OJ. You're a knowledgeable poster but I'm not sure where your head is at on this one. Everyone who played and coached in the league back then readily admits the game was more physical and that defense can't be played the way it was back in the day anymore. It's such a collective perspective that I feel like the topic isn't really open for debate lol.

Hand checking made it much more difficult to get into the paint and way more bumping and body contact was allowed. Post play, not that it really exists anymore, isn't as physical. Flopping and the officials falling for flops changed the game enough in it's own right.

Basketball is still basketball, but the game was significantly more physical 20 years ago. There were still touch-fouls and ticky-tack calls back then but it was far less frequent than now. Stern wanted more offense 10-12 years ago when the collective talent of the league plummeted and he got it.

I just really think the physical play had more of an intimidation effect that an actual 'harder to score' effect.. I know lots of people disagree with this as I have gave my opinion on this in other threads before as well.

I used to be one of those guys "Jordan played when hand checking was allowed and would score even more today" but the more I look back on it I just don't see it being that much worse..

You could actually argue that trying to use your hands instead of your feet when playing defense would make you a worse defender.. Not in the paint maybe but definitely outside.. Sure you could nudge a player off balance while driving, but the elite guys, like Jordan and Wade, are going to score unless you can stay in front of them.. You learn from day one "play defense with your feet" and all the elite defenders did that..

I know when I play I would much rather play a physical team that didn't know how to play with their feet than against a team with guys who could stay in front of me and beat me to my spots..

I know the league now is geared more towards offense, and I know the league was tougher then, but I just don't see the noticeably huge difference that every claims was there.. Especially for a guy like Wade, I don't see slightly more physical play being much of an issue for him..

People always seem to leave off the other side of the argument as well.. If guys like Wade and LeBron were in that type of league they may even be better players than they are now. Defensively they could also use their hands and offensively they could push off and create space.. You can't just compare different eras like that and say 'so and so couldn't do this then or now' ..

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

rudy gay was just an random player i picked with a decent all around skillset, maybe i should have picked a better example because the point seems lost. so thats on me.

far as wade, we just disagree. i dont think that he will be remembered historically with the same fondness some of the other all-time greats will be. besides that i have already acknowledged that he is a great player.

by no means am i suggesting that wade is a subpar player, i just dont regard him as others i guess.

--------------------

let me clarify a point i made about wade....

when i mentioned that wade now falls into the same category as pippen or kobe with shaq what i meant was that historically all his contributions to the success of the team are going to LBJs legacy not his own.

im not one of those ppl that think it was all jordan or all shaq. i think pippen is a great player and that at he was the 2nd best player in the league during the 2nd 3peat.

i think that those laker championships were every bit as much kobe's as shaqs. every bit!

but heres the thing whether we like it or not. pippen doesnt get nearly the credit he earned and deserves. and neither did kobe. pippen is still in that shadow and it took kobe to win without shaq to start to get the credit he truly deserves.

so im saying that wade is now in that same boat, that he is being disrespected by the media right now, because he has been demoted to lebrons sidekick when in reality he is nobodys sidekick. everything now is about lebron. right or wrong and wade is not being given the credit he deserves for his contributions.

its easy to say that he is because were kinda live in the moment, but just take a step back and listen closely to the narrative. its all lebron, as if wade and bosh arent even there. its just my opinion and ultimately time will tell. but i think they are settin wade up to be 4gotten. not in the mind of diehards. from a championship standpoint bron was a good look for wade, but from a historical standpoint i think it was a disaster. only thing i hope is that wade has made his peace with it. theres a reason you cant see the stars during the day, because the sun is too bright. sometimes arother persons flame shines so bright that it dwarfs your own and your own brillance gets lost in the light.

again this all my spidey-sense. just what i think. but ill leave yall with this that i think illustrates the point.

i seen a interview he did on espn and maybe some of yall seen it also.

hanna storm "your a 2 time champion and seems like everyone has 4gotten about d-wade.".

wade: "i know right!" then he went into some other things. but i believe that initial gut response is pure honesty.

just my take. i understand we agree. we shall see tho.

Ok, that makes more sense. Well yea, It's Lebron's time now, and Wade knows that. I still wouldn't say it's Bron's team yet, because Wade is still such an integral part of their offense, but yes, Lebron has the lights focused on him.

But, I don't think people will forget Wade, he's made a large imprint on the game, and I don't think Heat fans or the league will forget about how deadly he is, and he's still gonna have night where he will carry the load, on an off night from Lebron.

I don't think anyone is sleeping on Wade, he's still a huge part of the game.

[Gibbz]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

Alright well I ain't gonna pretend I read the majority or even pieces of this thread, but I've gotta figure that since this is so long there must be about 3 or 4 dudes clowning and saying they'd take Reggie right?

Anybody who knows the game takes Wade. Don't let nostalgia of Reggie vs. the Knicks cloud realistic judgement.

[ojandpizza]

Ok, that makes more sense. Well yea, It's Lebron's time now, and Wade knows that. I still wouldn't say it's Bron's team yet, because Wade is still such an integral part of their offense, but yes, Lebron has the lights focused on him.

But, I don't think people will forget Wade, he's made a large imprint on the game, and I don't think Heat fans or the league will forget about how deadly he is, and he's still gonna have night where he will carry the load, on an off night from Lebron.

I don't think anyone is sleeping on Wade, he's still a huge part of the game.

Plenty of players have played second fiddle and been remembered as a better player than Reggie.. I don't see Wade being any different

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

Plenty of players have played second fiddle and been remembered as a better player than Reggie.. I don't see Wade being any different

Like I said, Wade now vs Miller in his prime. Wade still takes it considerably. Wade in his prime not even close.

[TajDeni]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

i feel like we are going around in circles a bit, and i accept that maybe that is my fault because maybe im not stating things clear enough.

what i mean by 4gotten is that i believe that wade will not be remember in the light that he truly deserves to be remembered in.

whether or not wade is as good as lebron as a player b4 they teamed up i guess was somewhat up for debate. i mean its not like wade didnt have his supporters who felt he was the very best player in the league.

but regardless of that debate, wade based on his talent level had the potential to write a legacy that could have been equal to or superior to LBJ. that is his highest shine.

and now history will not remember him in his greatest light possible.history will regard him in a much dimmer light.

the nba will not let you 4get mj, bird or magic. history will not let us 4get kobe or lebron. and wade had that type of ability. to be a player history would just not let you 4get about.

and it is now my personal opinion that because of being next to lebron history will not remember wade in his full glory. we has 2 rings now and he's being looked over to a large degree.

ill go back to what i said earlier, had kobe had stayed with shaq history would have not remember him for his true greatness, because shaq would have always been a cloud hanging over his shine. and thus diminishing his true greatness.

its the same reason nobody ever considers Kareem the greatest of all time when in actually a case could be atleast argued that he is, but because he's not magic in a way history has "kinda" 4gotten just how great Cap' was. i mean ppl know he was great but its like they dont respect that greatness at the level that they should.

again pippen was a great player, but does history remember pippen 4 his greatness or does history only remember pippen because history remembers mj?

we all know that lebron is a stat-sheets wet dream, so lets say the heat go on to win mulitple titles. 25yrs from now when all these games we are currently watching start to lose their in-game context. (because it always happens that way). will history remember wade properly? or will history just look at lebrons stat-sheet and say lebron carried wade. thats why i say wade is in the same boat as pippen and he other examples i gave.

of course wades name wont fall into oblivion, but his name will not ring bells 4ever like it had the cahnce to either.

and even tho wade is a better overall player than reggie, i believe 4 whatever the reason, maybe because reggie was able to shine at his full capacity even tho he is not as great a player as wade his name will live on in greater fondness than wades.

so thats what i mean when i say that they are setting wade up to be 4gotten.

again wade is a great player, of course as of now he will be remembered as the 3rd best sg ever, but 25yrs from now will ppl truly truly understand and remember just how great that spot really is.

i have my doubts about that.

[HMcCoy]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

He probably would have gotten banged around more, and hit with some harder fouls, but he'd still be Wade.

The soft officiating has an impact on the bumps he takes. 20 years ago he would have taken those bumps with a lot more frequency, without getting to the line. Not sure if his body could have taken that punishment, as Wade hasn't been overly durable in the cream puff era. Thing that always gets lost in these generation debates is how would a player adapt, and I expect that a pre-roid age Wade would have mastered the jumper, sooner, and still been a 2-way beast...but a skinnier, attack, attack, attack Wade's nickname would have been "doubtful".

[ojandpizza]

The soft officiating has an impact on the bumps he takes. 20 years ago he would have taken those bumps with a lot more frequency, without getting to the line. Not sure if his body could have taken that punishment, as Wade hasn't been overly durable in the cream puff era. Thing that always gets lost in these generation debates is how would a player adapt, and I expect that a pre-roid age Wade would have mastered the jumper, sooner, and still been a 2-way beast...but a skinnier, attack, attack, attack Wade's nickname would have been "doubtful".

Oh c'mon, some fouls maybe have been harder but they were still called as fouls.. Why do people act like 90s games were no call boxing matches or something..

And what does "pre-roid age Wade" mean?

[DukeC]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

He's been accused of steroids but I don't think he's ever been officially caught using anything. So ,as of right now, he's innoncent.

If that's the assumption McCoy wants to think of Wade though...

It'd be like me going into a baseball debate and saying I believed Babe Ruth used steriods. It's entirely irrelevant.

[VincentB]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

In today's league Reggie would be an even tougher cover than he was in the 90's. No hand checking & tighter officiating would be advantages to him. With that being said, Dwyane Wade is the more complete player when you factor in defense and rebounding, but I can see why one would make a case for Reggie Miller. It's really personal preference.