i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

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  • Zeta Reticulan1
    Banned
    • Sep 2017
    • 471

    #91
    Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

    Originally posted by DaisukEasy
    You'd literally be trapped in bottom half guard forever if that was the case.
    No, you would still have to hold the analog stick in the correct direction under my proposed change to denials. You would be locked out of denying in the other direction when pre denying in one direction.
    So you couldn't switch directions to deny on reaction, if pre denying in the opposite direction.


    You can't do that anywhere in the game or in any other game that has even a little dept.
    False. In Undisputed 3 you could deny on the ground right from the get go as a casual, and that game had a lot of depth on the ground. It's still loved by many to this day, as the game with the best grappling.

    Anyway, I've said it before. Artificially decreasing the skill gap by making the game more shallow is good way to ruin the game. I've seen this in multiple games already, not once did it turn out right.
    No one wants to make the game shallow. I want a more elegant solution to the problem of casuals not being able to defend themselves on the ground, without having to geek out and memorize tons of animations. And this problem will only amplify when they add exponentially more and more grappling animations for UFC 4. Undisputed 3 handled grappling denials just fine. Implementing denials similar to the way they did would not detract from the game at all.

    Casuals don't care as much as you think they do or worse, don't even notice the ****ing difference. While actual fans get pissed because the game isn't as competitive as it used to be. Nobody wins.
    There are a lot of serious MMA fans and BJJ practitioners that fall under the umbrella of casual gamers, and I know a lot that had a hard time on the ground in this game. They definitely care about being able to defend themselves on the ground, and were quite frustrated by the experience.

    Comment

    • Morgan Monkman
      North of 60
      • Apr 2016
      • 1385

      #92
      Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

      Nobody wants to remember 100 different animations for which way you need to block which is also dependant on camera angle which is always changing.

      Not to mention the ground game is boring and you do nothing but fill meters.

      Needs fixing for the next game and i personally hope they scrap the entire system and head in a different direction.
      PSNID: B_A_N_E

      Comment

      • DaisukEasy
        Pro
        • Jul 2016
        • 577

        #93
        Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

        Originally posted by Zeta Reticulan1
        No, you would still have to hold the analog stick in the correct direction under my proposed change to denials. You would be locked out of denying in the other direction when pre denying in one direction.
        So you couldn't switch directions to deny on reaction, if pre denying in the opposite direction.
        Then it's exactly the same as it is now, minus the reaction time. Which isn't the part people have trouble with.

        False. In Undisputed 3 you could deny on the ground right from the get go as a casual, and that game had a lot of depth on the ground. It's still loved by many to this day, as the game with the best grappling.
        I never played undisputed so I can't comment on how deep it is. But simplified transition blocking doesn't make you competent.

        People can throw jabs and hooks from the get up in this game. Doesn't mean they know anything about striking.

        No one wants to make the game shallow.
        False.

        I want a more elegant solution to the problem of casuals not being able to defend themselves on the ground, without having to geek out and memorize tons of animations.
        Your system doesn't solve the animation problem. If you still have to input the direction, what exactly did you solve by being able to pre-deny? The only people that benefit are those with far below average reaction time and those with a terrible internet connection.

        There are a lot of serious MMA fans and BJJ practitioners that fall under the umbrella of casual gamers, and I know a lot that had a hard time on the ground in this game. They definitely care about being able to defend themselves on the ground, and were quite frustrated by the experience.
        They can learn how to defend themselves on the ground in less than 5 minutes. It's really not that complicated.

        Being able to actually defend yourself in a fight is hard though because you need to develop the muscle memory to perform the necessary actions. Which anyone who's ever tried to get good at anything should know is unavoidable if the task takes any skill what so ever.


        Originally posted by Morgan Monkman
        Nobody wants to remember 100 different animations for which way you need to block
        1) You don't have to, it's way less.
        2) I was able to block animations I'd never seen before because you can tell which way they're trying to move simply by looking at the damn animation.

        It's really not that hard.

        which is also dependant on camera angle which is always changing.
        That's only true for clinching. Not on the ground. Maybe immediately after a takedown, but generally the camera is stationary and the directions are static.

        Not to mention the ground game is boring and you do nothing but fill meters.
        And here we are. The core of the problem.

        This whole "Casuals don't know what to do" is nothing more than a bull**** facade you put up because you don't actually like the system. Which is fine. Just be upfront about it.
        Last edited by DaisukEasy; 10-25-2018, 11:59 AM.

        Comment

        • RetractedMonkey
          MVP
          • Dec 2017
          • 1624

          #94
          Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

          Originally posted by Morgan Monkman
          Nobody wants to remember 100 different animations for which way you need to block which is also dependant on camera angle which is always changing.



          Not to mention the ground game is boring and you do nothing but fill meters.



          Needs fixing for the next game and i personally hope they scrap the entire system and head in a different direction.


          Agreed, but that’s not the point of the topic. The ground game is boring and static, but it isn’t difficult.

          And I laugh at “remembering” transition directions like the vast majority aren’t completely intuitive.


          Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

          Comment

          • Zeta Reticulan1
            Banned
            • Sep 2017
            • 471

            #95
            Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

            Then it's exactly the same as it is now, minus the reaction time. Which isn't the part people have trouble with.
            No, it's adding an option to pre deny in 1 direction, to give casuals at least a chance, but penalizing you by not giving you the option to deny in the opposite direction. There are no pre denials (holding a denial in 1 direction) for transitions on the ground currently.

            I never played undisputed so I can't comment on how deep it is. But simplified transition blocking doesn't make you competent.
            It gives casuals an option to at least have a chance defensively on the ground, which is the point. And you should really go play Undisputed 3 to get some perspective on this issue.

            Your system doesn't solve the animation problem. If you still have to input the direction, what exactly did you solve by being able to pre-deny? The only people that benefit are those with far below average reaction time and those with a terrible internet connection.
            It solves the problem of having to very quickly recognize the animation that is playing and then input the denial direction associated with it. This relies heavily on memorization of animations. This pre denial idea is really ZHunter's idea from quite a while ago that he told me once. This would at least give casuals a chance defensively on the ground.

            They can learn how to defend themselves on the ground in less than 5 minutes. It's really not that complicated.

            2) I was able to block animations I'd never seen before because you can tell which way they're trying to move simply by looking at the damn animation.

            It's really not that hard.
            No they can't, and apparently it is that hard for a lot of people. NEWWS is a BJJ blue belt and he is having a hard time with these denials as well I believe. I have also played with quite a few BJJ practitioners that can't learn all of the denials that they want to do in a reasonable amount of time.



            And here we are. The core of the problem.

            This whole "Casuals don't know what to do" is nothing more than a bull**** facade you put up because you don't actually like the system. Which is fine. Just be upfront about it.
            It's not BS. We are listening to our friends that just can't get the hang of defending themselves on the ground. I know many others are having issues if my high level BJJ friends are having trouble. I just want this game to be as successful as it can be.

            Making it so complicated that the casual gamer has no options defensively on the ground is a major mistake in my opinion.

            Comment

            • GrimLeiper
              Rookie
              • Nov 2016
              • 353

              #96
              Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

              What denials are you referring to? I don't understand how people can struggle with certain denials - you do the same thing for every single denial, just in a different direction. The only thing I can think of is reversing crucifix or a similar denial, in which you either need GA or a stamina advantage to do.

              Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Operation Sports mobile app

              Comment

              • RetractedMonkey
                MVP
                • Dec 2017
                • 1624

                #97
                Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

                Learning the ground game is an intelligence litmus test. I'm just going to go out and say it. You can literally go into practice with two controllers and test all four directions for each position.

                Or, if you have any sense of direction whatsoever, understand that an opponent shifting their body to the left means push the denial in the left direction.

                You aren't treating these players like casuals, you're treating them like idiots.

                It's that simple. You can't learn the ground game basics? You don't care enough or you lack deductive reasoning.

                Comment

                • SUGATA
                  MVP
                  • Apr 2016
                  • 1375

                  #98
                  Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

                  Originally posted by DaisukEasy
                  This is not true. You can hold down R2 before the transition. It's just the direction input you have to do on reaction. And like I said, if you don't know the animations, just guess any direction.

                  It's a low bar reaction test. Anyone can do it.



                  Basically turning every position into the crucifix. Death by inescapable GnP from everywhere! Sounds like something casuals would love! [/sarcasm]



                  What? =D

                  Grapple Block = R2 + RS

                  GB can NOT be pre-denied

                  Holding R2 pre-emptively is bad, b/c it does not help in GBing and it slow down stamina regen + gives GA to the opponent.

                  So, your resumes are wrong here.
                  Last edited by SUGATA; 10-25-2018, 02:13 PM.
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                  Comment

                  • GrimLeiper
                    Rookie
                    • Nov 2016
                    • 353

                    #99
                    Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

                    Originally posted by SUGATA
                    Grapple Block = R2 + RS

                    GB can NOT be pre-denied

                    Holding R2 pre-emptively is bad, b/c it does not help in GBing and it slow down stamina regen + gives GA to the opponent.

                    So, your resumes are wrong here.
                    I understand what you're saying but there are times holding that pre-emptively is required - against people who use momentum transitions.

                    There's times I'll hold it pre-emptively and flick the direction in between each strike.

                    Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Operation Sports mobile app

                    Comment

                    • tomitomitomi
                      Pro
                      • Mar 2018
                      • 987

                      #100
                      Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

                      While the ground transitions are for the most part easily recognizable (I'd say the get up transition from half guard sub is deceptive), a lot of the clinch transitions can be quite tough to recognize in time.
                      ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                      Comment

                      • Zeta Reticulan1
                        Banned
                        • Sep 2017
                        • 471

                        #101
                        Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

                        Originally posted by RetractedMonkey
                        Learning the ground game is an intelligence litmus test. I'm just going to go out and say it. You can literally go into practice with two controllers and test all four directions for each position.

                        Or, if you have any sense of direction whatsoever, understand that an opponent shifting their body to the left means push the denial in the left direction.

                        You aren't treating these players like casuals, you're treating them like idiots

                        It's that simple. You can't learn the ground game basics? You don't care enough or you lack deductive reasoning.
                        I have no problem either. However, you underestimate how many people fall into the lower half of the bell curve.

                        Comment

                        • DaisukEasy
                          Pro
                          • Jul 2016
                          • 577

                          #102
                          Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

                          Originally posted by SUGATA
                          Grapple Block = R2 + RS

                          GB can NOT be pre-denied

                          Holding R2 pre-emptively is bad, b/c it does not help in GBing and it slow down stamina regen + gives GA to the opponent.

                          So, your resumes are wrong here.
                          We're talking casuals here and about a situation where all you do is trying to deny another casual (at least once).

                          GA, Stamina regen. All those factors don't matter nearly as much when two people don't know what the **** they're doing anyway.

                          So yes, they can hold R2 and go all in on a direction to deny someone.

                          Comment

                          • RetractedMonkey
                            MVP
                            • Dec 2017
                            • 1624

                            #103
                            Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

                            Originally posted by SUGATA
                            Grapple Block = R2 + RS

                            GB can NOT be pre-denied

                            Holding R2 pre-emptively is bad, b/c it does not help in GBing and it slow down stamina regen + gives GA to the opponent.

                            So, your resumes are wrong here.
                            It does not give any GA to the opponent, nor does it slow down stamina regen.

                            Comment

                            • DaisukEasy
                              Pro
                              • Jul 2016
                              • 577

                              #104
                              Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

                              Originally posted by RetractedMonkey
                              It does not give any GA to the opponent, nor does it slow down stamina regen.
                              See, I never heard of that myself either, but because I was too lazy to turn on the PS4 and check if that was actually true, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.

                              I should've known better.

                              Anyway, that means I'm actually 100% correct and you're all bitching about absolutely nothing.

                              Comment

                              • Zeta Reticulan1
                                Banned
                                • Sep 2017
                                • 471

                                #105
                                Re: i feel like this game is not for casual players at all

                                Originally posted by DaisukEasy
                                See, I never heard of that myself either, but because I was too lazy to turn on the PS4 and check if that was actually true, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.

                                I should've known better.

                                Anyway, that means I'm actually 100% correct and you're all bitching about absolutely nothing.
                                So the fact that you can hold RT/R2 without penalty proves that the many casuals having issues with denials are all wrong...okay....lol

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