Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

[101]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

that's always been a problem with the game. QB accuracy, people complained about lobs in 2k5 and blamed it on DB AI. It was more about how pinpoint all the qbs were, rather than the DB. Hence why kyle boller was an A+ qb in the game with his speed and pinpoint accuracy to todd heap. Lbz can tell you how mr boller is in real life.

The Ravens were offensive powerhouses in 2K5, specially when you got the ball to Jamal out the backfield. I think I have to agree with you on this one. Once you were able to keep your DB's in position to not make bad (animations) plays on the ball, you still had to worry about the quarterback dropping pass after pass right over the outstretched hand of your defender. Messed up thing was, was that I didn't really matter who it was that was throwing it. Hell, didn't really matter much who you were throwing it to.

[LBzrule]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

but name his wrs and qb. He had a good line but he was the team. He carried 370 times during 1980 season. He was facing 8 men fronts all the time.

If my mind serves me correctly, Ken Stabler played for the Oilers in 1980 did he not? I remember TE Mike Barber and they had a WR named Renfro. Per 8 man fronts, the 4-3 and its variations were still the popular fronts back then. The steel curtain, Dallas Cowboys Doomsday II, the 1980 Raiders squad were some some of the toughest defenses during that era and they were all 7 man fronts. Matter of fact the Curtain was a Tilted Nose 43/Umbrella front. Earl never faced a 46 Bear or a Split 44. The closest he came to facing something like that was the Steel Curtain, which his best output was only 89 rushing yards, in his rookie season, which was considered good against the Steel Curtain, but still eaten alive in RB vs defense terms.

The thing in the back of my mind is, Earl never had to face the 46 of the Bears, he never had to face the Crunch Bunch, He never had to face the 72 Dolphins D, he never had to face the 2000 Ravens, The Rams Fearsome Foursome or the Vikings Purple People Eaters - who where not very big but fast as all hell and lived in people's backfield's vs run and pass due to the quickness and speed. All he had to face was the Curtain and he got 1 shot at the Doomsday II of the Cowboys. He never put up over 100 against the Curtain. Again his best output was 89 yds. And he never ran over anyone on the Curtain either. The same year he put up the 89 yds on the curtain, they came back later and annihilated Campbell in the AFC Championship game. When it comes to the 46 of the Bears, The Crunch Bunch nad the 2000 Ravens you are talking about bigger players than Earl had to face. Lambert, Ham and those guys were around 225lbs at the most. But when you move to the 46 of the Bears, with Fridge, Singletary, Dent, ect you are in a different ball park size wise and speed wise. Same thing with the Crunch Bunch. Now you have Carson at 240 and a maniac in Lawrence Taylor. 2000 Ravens same thing. You got Goose and Adams up front and #52 who was 265lbs and was running free like a missile and destroying HB's.

What I want to know is what happened to Earl in the big games? 78 Championship game, NOTHING. 1980 Wildcard game against the Raiders who were the leagues 22nd ranked defense, NOTHING. 1979 Championship game vs Steelers - nothing. And in 79 the Curtain was starting to head south as it fell to the #7 defense in the league. Earl had his games and he dominated alot of teams. But there were other teams that had his number.

The problem with All Pro is the same problem that 2k4 and to a degree 2k5 had. The tackling physics are in favor of the RB first and foremost. In 2k4 and 2k5 I could shoot the gap and hit the RB as soon as he got the ball with Ray Lewis or Urlacher and the RB is already breaking the tackle. Now how can the RB concentrate on getting the handoff and then at the same time use strength and power to shrug off a defenders who are going to go down as top 10 best at their position? and they are running at full speed and you are not even accelerating yet because you gotta get the handoff. That's the thing that pisses me off about the game and has done so since 2k4.

Stop giving the offensive player the advantage when he hasn't done sh@t to get it. Make him earn it. I expect Earl to run me over if he is untouched and has a head of steam and I don't. But if I have a head of steam and he has a head of steam, let real physics along with what angle I take determine the outcome. Also they need to have a better mechanic for low tackling. If I am a Safety and I come from the side and tackle him low I shouldn't see my safety fold up, roll over and start having convulsions. Earl should get flipped over because I'm not trying to hit him where his power is. But if I have a 250 to 260 lb linebacker running full speed and earl is running full speed, but I come from the side and tackle him up high, don't let Earl automatically win. Now if I'm a 225 lb linebacker and that's Earl then let Earl have that. Secondly, I do not expect him to be running over anyone when he has to find the hole, come out of the hole and then start to accelerate to get up to speed. The game does not and never has IMO, taken into account realistically, in terms of physics, the velocity, angle and weight of players as they are coming into contact with one another. If it did then in 2k4 and 2k5 and 2k8 that RB would not be breaking the tackle when I shoot that gap and hit him as soon as he gets the football. He would be looking for his two front teeth.

Another thing about 2k8 is the double team blocking does not occur as much. This is a fronts problem and a linebacker alignment problem. In the 4-3, 3-4, 4-4 there are linebacker alignment problems. In the 4-3 all three line up too close. The Mike should be about 4 to 5 yards off the line of scrimmage. The outside backers should be 3 to 4 yards off the line of scrimmage. They have all of them around 2 yards off the line. And yes you can manually move them but that's too much damn micromanagement when you are also trying to use the hot routes to change zones, man other guys up and do other things. In the 3-4 the ILB's are too damn close. They both should be 4 to 5 yards off the line of scrimmage. Same thing with the 44. Well the 44 the alignment is just I won't even bother. The last thing too that I noticed when playing Freak yesterday is that the defensive line moves ON the snap. The Linebackers do not. Big problem. Even if they are blitzing they do not move on the snap of the football and that's a huge problem. Can you contain things despite the problem? Yes, but the point is that's a problem and a big one.

[TombSong]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

I can agree in principle to what you are syaing LB, but here is the thing.
There were and are many great defenses...there has only been 1 Earl Campbell. Speed and Power all wraped up in a mentality that had no regard for his own well being while running.
You can say teams played 4-3 defenses back then but I bet Earl faced more 8 man fronts than any back in that time period. You can say the Steel curtain held him to 89 yards but what did they have to do to bring that about ? I am SURE they were not lined up with seven in the box every play and stopped him. Also how many other backs got 89 yards against the steel curtain that year ?

That type of stuff is subjective. We can all debate on what he would have done against whoever, but that dont change the fact that Earl Campbell was a WRECKING machine.

So how do you portray a WRECKING machine in a video game without making him "just another power back ?" There are defenders in this game that can stop Earl cold. there are line stunts and defenses that can stop any run play you want. Use them wisely and you can contain any back you want in this game.

I am glad this game has backs in it that you actually have to fear...knowing you got to call a great game as well as have great players to shut them down.

I have seen Lott, Browner, Woodson, White, Thomas, Millard, Carson, Singletary and others all come of the line hard and fast and their pursuit of the ball is relentless in this game. Because every LB/DB does not do that is not an indictment that the game is broke or needs major adjustments. IMO I dont think the offense has an advantage. I think its pretty balanced. Whats the deciding factor on which side dominates I think is the person behind the controller, which is how it should be.

If a scrub "user" has a defense full of legends and is calling bad defenses against a guy who runs his offense well, he cant get mad that his team is getting ran't on. I think play calling has more to do with success in this game than the players, the star players just make your play calling easier cause they can help make up for some of the mistakes you may make in your play calling.

To the guys complaining about over powered backs. Go to practice mode and on defense call
a mix stunt. Thats the one where the De and DT twist on both sides. Now call a running play for Mr campbell that goes through the gap between the guard and tackle or off tackle on either side of the LOS. You will see that its SHUTDOWN. The middle of the line will be WIDE open though. KNOWING that as a coach you make sure you blitz a LB up the middle to contain the cutback. The risk is a great back can bounce it outside but because the play did not call for any blockers to be outside the RB is gonna have to largely rely on his own ability to now get out the backfield. 90% of the time in this scenario, the back will take a loss or have no gain or MAYBE 1-2 yards.

Thats football. You call a play with the intent to shut something down KNOWING the risk of what you are giving up. I think some of you think because I got a All star team that no matter what I call I should be able to stop whoever. If you dont then the game must be flawed. I have not seen a play ran yet where my defense did not stop what I intended to stop. If you give a QB enough time in the pocket ANY defense is gonna break down and every now and then a great back is gonna punish you and break one for a big gain. (SEE Barry Sanders vids in REAL life) How many times have you seen the absolute right D called they have Barry, Emmitt, whoever dead to rights and all of a sudden they are running for the endzone ?!?!? THATs what made them great.

[catcatch22]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

What your saying to do is game the game. What we are saying is that I should be able to use normal "football techniques" to stop a back. What LBz is saying is what many of us has said.

It has nothing to do with the playcalling, you say you read our posts but I don't think you let it sink in and understand what we are saying. I have my top tier guys in position to make the tackle. Not generics here, top tier guys like Carson and Singletary there to make the tackle on a back going east-west while my guy has full steam and they can't make the tackle. The back has too much of an advantage. However I see why they did that. First of all the default game is only for 5 minutes. If they portrayed the game realistically the backs would be useless since you only have 10 minutes a half to score. No one would pick a back for a 5 minute game.

The reason why great backs are special, is because consistancy not gamebreaking (Except for Barry, pure gamebreaker). Their ability to give you consistant yardage without turning the ball over which is readily available when passing the ball. You can't totally rely on only the passing game because of INT's the quick turnover. These backs took time off the clock, gave you consistent yardage and did not turn it over. In a 60 minute game that is very invaluable. In a 20 minute game it doesn't mean much.

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

What your saying to do is game the game. What we are saying is that I should be able to use normal "football techniques" to stop a back. What LBz is saying is what many of us has said.

You should have to use more than "normal" techniques to stop a great back. the greater the back the more planning you should have to put into it. I don't fear Magette more than I fear Warner, and I don't fear Warner more than I fear Simpson. IMO, that's they way it should be.

[burnwood]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

What your saying to do is game the game. What we are saying is that I should be able to use normal "football techniques" to stop a back. What LBz is saying is what many of us has said.

It has nothing to do with the playcalling, you say you read our posts but I don't think you let it sink in and understand what we are saying. I have my top tier guys in position to make the tackle. Not generics here, top tier guys like Carson and Singletary there to make the tackle on a back going east-west while my guy has full steam and they can't make the tackle. The back has too much of an advantage. However I see why they did that. First of all the default game is only for 5 minutes. If they portrayed the game realistically the backs would be useless since you only have 10 minutes a half to score. No one would pick a back for a 5 minute game.

The reason why great backs are special, is because consistancy not gamebreaking (Except for Barry, pure gamebreaker). Their ability to give you consistant yardage without turning the ball over which is readily available when passing the ball. You can't totally rely on only the passing game because of INT's the quick turnover. These backs took time off the clock, gave you consistent yardage and did not turn it over. In a 60 minute game that is very invaluable. In a 20 minute game it doesn't mean much.

I feel that it's a lost cause to try and explain it further. There is no simpler way to put it now that it is all out. If you can't get what LB is explaining then...

[TombSong]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

What your saying to do is game the game. What we are saying is that I should be able to use normal "football techniques" to stop a back. What LBz is saying is what many of us has said.

It has nothing to do with the playcalling, you say you read our posts but I don't think you let it sink in and understand what we are saying. I have my top tier guys in position to make the tackle. Not generics here, top tier guys like Carson and Singletary there to make the tackle on a back going east-west while my guy has full steam and they can't make the tackle. The back has too much of an advantage. However I see why they did that. First of all the default game is only for 5 minutes. If they portrayed the game realistically the backs would be useless since you only have 10 minutes a half to score. No one would pick a back for a 5 minute game.

The reason why great backs are special, is because consistancy not gamebreaking (Except for Barry, pure gamebreaker). Their ability to give you consistant yardage without turning the ball over which is readily available when passing the ball. You can't totally rely on only the passing game because of INT's the quick turnover. These backs took time off the clock, gave you consistent yardage and did not turn it over. In a 60 minute game that is very invaluable. In a 20 minute game it doesn't mean much.

I do understand what you are saying. It also reads like you EXPECT your star defenders to ALWAYS win the battle against ANY back. Which is why I asked in another thread how many times should a defender win a battle against a HB, who would be right about a situation where ther IS no clear RIGHT answer ? Let what I am saying sink in. The game DOES allow you to DO what ever you need to DO against the great backs within reason. You call it "gaming" the game, I call it playing football. Because you are not seeing results with your players dont mean others are not.

I have been in some games online where its frustrating to see a back get a big run, and I have been in some where I have completely negated them. Negating them sometimes is making them a non-factor in the game also. what I mean is they are shut down when you need them to be shut down(3rd and 4th downs) they may get a big run here and their but as long as they are not scoring on those drives you lost the small battles with the back on that drive but you won the war.

It may be bothering you to see a HB break free from someone you think he should not but how often does it really happen ? If Sayers ran into the fridge 20 times in a game how many times did sayers win the battle ? How many games has sayers outdone fridge and vice versa ? You may find over time one game one wins the next its the other way around. Which is why I say alot of this stuff is subjective and not so much a problem with the game.

[dunelly]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

There's really no fear of turnovers (INTs) when passing in this game.

The way VC hardcoded INT, is for pure stats. They make sure there's no more than 2-3 Ints in one game. They make Legend DBs drop SO MANY easy ints for 6 points because if they didn't, people would struggle so much on offense.
I have had a game where I've had 15 PD, basically at least 10 dropped INTs for 6 pts.

I understand VC now. They program this game so people don't struggle on offense, (the "fun" side of the ball).
And yet people do STILL struggle on defense. SO what can VC do? I see people who gain less than 50 yards offense. IF defense WAS RIGHT, i don't think these same people would enjoy the game very much.

RE: tombsong. You're missing what we're saying. I'm not asking defenders to never get beat 1 on 1. If a legendary Linebacker like harry carson hits earl in the backfield JUST AS he recieves the carry. There is no question in who should win. Now maybe in an open field area where 1on1 skills matter, I can see barry winning 70% of the time. But the broken tackles in this game are inside the tackles, most a split second after he broke another tackle. Realistically, Earl shouldn't be able to break Harry Carson, then right after, run over Jessie Tuggle. Fatique + the game doesnt regconize the pain Earl went through before breaking that 2nd tackle.

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

TombSong, I'm with cha. I understand, see, and feel where you're coming from. I beleive people expect to shut these backs completely down. Most of these guys were good to great backs in their era. The object is more so to contain them reather than shut them down.

One game Sayers had 175 yards on me from 21 attempts. 2 of those runs were 50+ yards. Yeah he broke big runs on me but for the most part he was averaging way below the 4 ypc mark.

I've had my generics tackle gold rb's plenty of time, and vice versa. But I've also had generic rb's run over some of my legend defenders too.

I think people get too caught up in the gold, silver, bronze thing and forget these guys are or aren't superman, and it's still football.

[catcatch22]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

You should have to use more than "normal" techniques to stop a great back. the greater the back the more planning you should have to put into it. I don't fear Magette more than I fear Warner, and I don't fear Warner more than I fear Simpson. IMO, that's they way it should be.

Your still not following me, the way to stop top backs in the game is not the same way you would do it in real life. Most teams nowadays put 8 in the box or bring guys up and force the team to pass. However this method is very inaffective cause when I play guys online or the AI and they put their whole team in the box, I love!! it cause that is the easiest defense to run on in this game and get huge gains every time. I have the most trouble running against teams that stay back, play zone and are basically flat footed which is just wrong. It should be the other the way around. I basically play the same defense against all the backs cause they all in a way play the same except for their different attributes.

Also its not the playcalling, my players are there to make the play and they are not allowed to since they gold backs have a universal shimmy tackle rating wich seems imbedded for all gold runningbacks. Sort of a default rating for a running backs even though they are not power backs. I have no problem with Campbell or Ottis Anderson doing their thing since they were power backs. However O.J. and Sayers were elusive and should break tackles that way.

[jmood88]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

The way the quarterbacks are now much more Madden like. There is a just too much speed the QB's have when moving back there. Also Cunningham was not accurate at all. Alot of people don't remember how great a deep ball catcher Fred Barnett was. MAN! was he good at grabbing Cunninghams deep balls.

The quarterbacks have too much speed? What game are you playing? Just about every quarterback is way too slow in this game.

[LBzrule]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

Let me make a couple of points. I do agree with the fact that Earl was a wrecking machine. However, I do not agree that who he was a wrecking machine AGAINST is insignificant. I think it is pretty damn significant. You are talking about size, speed and scheme differences. Secondly, the AGAINST is important because the problem is how does Earl become a wrecking machine in a game that is supposed to have the top defenders in NFL history – many of which he never faced.

Now you got a problem because when you put the top defenders in history in the game against the top offensive players then how do players be what they were? You can’t be a shut down CB when you have to play against the best WR in history. You can’t be an all world WR when you have to face the best CB’s in history. So how can you be a wrecking machine when you have to face the best linebackers, Dlinemen and other hit men that the history of the NFL has to offer? You can’t. The only way you can be that way is to mitigate what those defenders were.

Other points. 1) I do think the tackling physics favor the offensive player. I am not singling this out as a 2k8 problem. It is an Engine problem that has been around since 2k4. And then to not have a good low tackling system makes it worse. This is where I think EA did a good job. The low tackling in their game – albeit very simplistic - is a good example of what 2k needs so you can have alternative ways to tackle a guy like Campbell. There is low tackling in 2k8 but it is not pronounced as you will see your defender flying backwards even if you hit Earl in his thighs. This is an animation and physics issue.


2) From my perspective there is a discrepancy between the offensive and defensive legends. You mention Earl being a Wrecking machine. OK so then why can’t Tatum be the Assassin that he really was. Let me say more about that. While Earl was a wrecking machine, there was nothing nice about Jack Tatum. Tatum was a and I hate to say it this way, he was a career ender and involved in the most violent hits in the history of the game. For anyone that had the chance to see it, you will never forget what Tatum did to Daryl Stingley But Stingley was not the only one to suffer the wrath of the Assassin. He destroyed Frenchy Fuqua and Sammy White. Tatum made people hang it up, sometimes from their own choice and at other times unfortunately Tatum vs Earl on the goal line. Tatum did not get ran over, he actually got the best of the hit. Earl just happened to stumble into the endzone.

Where are all of these violent hits in All Pro 2k8? I haven’t seen them as there are rarely any injuries in the game at all. Again this has been a part of the discussion all along. How are you going to allow Earl, Jerry, Barry, Joe and Dan to be themselves but the defenders not be themselves? I haven’t seen a violent hit and injury delivered by Tatum. And it’s not just Tatum, who can forget Night Train Lane’s hit on I forget the HB’s name. Train basically ended it for him. Chuck Bednarick’s violent hit on Frank Gifford. Not only did Gifford sit out the rest of the 1960 season but he sat out the 1961 season too due to head injury and it was from the hit of Bednarik. But I do not see that type of stuff in the game which leads me to the conclusion of a discrepancy in power and effectiveness between the Offensive and defensive legends.

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

Your still not following me, the way to stop top backs in the game is not the same way you would do it in real life. Most teams nowadays put 8 in the box or bring guys up and force the team to pass. However this method is very inaffective cause when I play guys online or the AI and they put their whole team in the box, I love!! it cause that is the easiest defense to run on in this game and get huge gains every time. I have the most trouble running against teams that stay back, play zone and are basically flat footed which is just wrong. It should be the other the way around. I basically play the same defense against all the backs cause they all in a way play the same except for their different attributes.

Also its not the playcalling, my players are there to make the play and they are not allowed to since they gold backs have a universal shimmy tackle rating wich seems imbedded for all gold runningbacks. Sort of a default rating for a running backs even though they are not power backs. I have no problem with Campbell or Ottis Anderson doing their thing since they were power backs. However O.J. and Sayers were elusive and should break tackles that way.

I really can't argue w/ you b/c I haven't had these problems(knock on wood), the next time I play I'll pay more attention to this.

Also Not saying this is the case but, sometimes it is easier, in a way, to run against certain 8 man fronts and blitz's b/c once the RB gets past the first level, he's off to the races.

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

2) From my perspective there is a discrepancy between the offensive and defensive legends. You mention Earl being a Wrecking machine. OK so then why can’t Tatum be the Assassin that he really was. Let me say more about that. While Earl was a wrecking machine, there was nothing nice about Jack Tatum. Tatum was a and I hate to say it this way, he was a career ender and involved in the most violent hits in the history of the game. For anyone that had the chance to see it, you will never forget what Tatum did to Daryl Stingley  But Stingley was not the only one to suffer the wrath of the Assassin. He destroyed Frenchy Fuqua and Sammy White. Tatum made people hang it up, sometimes from their own choice and at other times unfortunately  Tatum vs Earl on the goal line. Tatum did not get ran over, he actually got the best of the hit. Earl just happened to stumble into the endzone.

Where are all of these violent hits in All Pro 2k8? I haven’t seen them as there are rarely any injuries in the game at all. Again this has been a part of the discussion all along. How are you going to allow Earl, Jerry, Barry, Joe and Dan to be themselves but the defenders not be themselves? I haven’t seen a violent hit and injury delivered by Tatum. And it’s not just Tatum, who can forget Night Train Lane’s hit on I forget the HB’s name. Train basically ended it for him. Chuck Bednarick’s violent hit on Frank Gifford. Not only did Gifford sit out the rest of the 1960 season but he sat out the 1961 season too due to head injury and it was from the hit of Bednarik. But I do not see that type of stuff in the game

If I don't agree w/ anything you say in this thread I definitely agree w/ this one. Although on my team Tatum rarely misses a tackle, he doesn't deliver the hits I hoped for when putting him on my team.

[catcatch22]

Re: Biggest reason why this game is arcadey

I do understand what you are saying. It also reads like you EXPECT your star defenders to ALWAYS win the battle against ANY back. Which is why I asked in another thread how many times should a defender win a battle against a HB, who would be right about a situation where ther IS no clear RIGHT answer ? Let what I am saying sink in. The game DOES allow you to DO what ever you need to DO against the great backs within reason. You call it "gaming" the game, I call it playing football. Because you are not seeing results with your players dont mean others are not.

I have been in some games online where its frustrating to see a back get a big run, and I have been in some where I have completely negated them. Negating them sometimes is making them a non-factor in the game also. what I mean is they are shut down when you need them to be shut down(3rd and 4th downs) they may get a big run here and their but as long as they are not scoring on those drives you lost the small battles with the back on that drive but you won the war.

It may be bothering you to see a HB break free from someone you think he should not but how often does it really happen ? If Sayers ran into the fridge 20 times in a game how many times did sayers win the battle ? How many games has sayers outdone fridge and vice versa ? You may find over time one game one wins the next its the other way around. Which is why I say alot of this stuff is subjective and not so much a problem with the game.

I'm not asking to shut anyone down or win every one on one match up, I'm looking for realism that is all just realism!! I'm not trying to shut every back down, not at all. Nor am I asking to be able to tackle one on one every time. I am specifically talking about when I have the guy stopped behind the line or in between the tackles and he has no where to go and have him wrapped up and he just shimmys every tackle on the way to the end zone.

Your responses have been
1. You don't know football, pick better plays -

I know football and the plays I pick have my players in position to make the play.

2. You don't use the right players -

I have Carson my Gold created Taylor and use Singletary as well.

3. Then you have to accept the fact the Offensive players are better thatn defensive players and will break tackles of 3 players in a row at times because of their greatness.-

Well what about the defensive players greatness. How is that measured. The backs are measured by one instance but the defense does not have nearly the impact the offense does. Are you telling me that linebackers are equal to the Runningbacks? If you answer yes then I know you are just blindly defending the game instead of trying to make it better.