04:35 PM - September 13, 2014 by Steve_OSCheck out the latest NBA 2K15 gameplay video from IpodKingCarter, featuring the Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks.
Post your thoughts.
NBA 2K15 News Post
04:35 PM - September 13, 2014 by Steve_OSCheck out the latest NBA 2K15 gameplay video from IpodKingCarter, featuring the Miami Heat vs. New York Knicks.
Post your thoughts.
NBA 2K15 Videos
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PREACH BROTHA
#2Kanned summed up right there.
most
Ok I think your misconstruing what am trying to get at let a clarify a bit.....
The comparison to elite is about breaking away from 2 men animations like it did...sure it sounds great theoretically but it never played out well hence like u said it was never released...but i played it
Most to almost All games have this so called canimation because they still need animations to play out accordingly....this explains why NBA 2k controls at times feels delayed...good example is passing which is a two man animation the passer and catcher needs to line up and at times its has a pause to line up properly then it plays out....the other game does this faster but at the cost of smoothness with out of context animations that looks interrupted at the wrong moment...some animations just aren't made to be broken out of until a certain point for it to look and feel real
Now am not saying 99% of the NBA involved with more than 2 players......but we are not talking bout individual movements we are talking about interaction/animations...and its interactions are mostly with two ppl....
Trying calling a screen on this game and when its set try running into or interacting with the screener.....it wont happen there is no animation for it but u know who will cause an animation with the screener a defender which is a 2 man animation ...so when u call a screen it might look like in this game 3 ppl are involved but in actuality it is only 2 ppl animations that will play out
Pick any animation that u see with interaction from 2k and it will still be a two man animation blocking, charging, stealing, postering, passing posting.....etc
Is that a bad thing?????? nope and this is why 2k is so beautiful in motion, but at times we noticed that animations are overwhelming and we want more control but it is always a balance of the two to keep that 2k formula of beauty and realistic vs responsiveness and control that makes this game hard to topple.....
And am sure u are aware of all this but this is what i am referring to when i am talking about two man animations....
Are there 3 men animations that could make this game even better.....i would love that...like collision from primary defender in the front and reaching collision simultaneously from a help defender from behind.....or PnR collision animation between dribbler screener and defender as the dribbler scrapes off the screener as he passes by and bumping off the defender
And to your last point about the play books and tinkering with it for hours ...am not saying anything about that.....all i want is for the CPU to stop doing the zombie plays with lots of standing around and moving with out effort...i don't play CPU modes am strictly vs humans.
But i know none better than Da_Czar to iron these things out cause he is best suited for it...so now it is only a matter of time before things get better with the new additions at VC
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Ok I think your misconstruing what am trying to get at let a clarify a bit.....
The comparison to elite is about breaking away from 2 men animations like it did...sure it sounds great theoretically but it never played out well hence like u said it was never released...but i played it
Most to almost All games have this so called canimation because they still need animations to play out accordingly....this explains why NBA 2k controls at times feels delayed...good example is passing which is a two man animation the passer and catcher needs to line up and at times its has a pause to line up properly then it plays out....the other game does this faster but at the cost of smoothness with out of context animations that looks interrupted at the wrong moment...some animations just aren't made to be broken out of until a certain point for it to look and feel real
Now am not saying 99% of the NBA involved with more than 2 players......but we are not talking bout individual movements we are talking about interaction/animations...and its interactions are mostly with two ppl....
Trying calling a screen on this game and when its set try running into or interacting with the screener.....it wont happen there is no animation for it but u know who will cause an animation with the screener a defender which is a 2 man animation ...so when u call a screen it might look like in this game 3 ppl are involved but in actuality it is only 2 ppl animations that will play out
Pick any animation that u see with interaction from 2k and it will still be a two man animation blocking, charging, stealing, postering, passing posting.....etc
Is that a bad thing?????? nope and this is why 2k is so beautiful in motion, but at times we noticed that animations are overwhelming and we want more control but it is always a balance of the two to keep that 2k formula of beauty and realistic vs responsiveness and control that makes this game hard to topple.....
And am sure u are aware of all this but this is what i am referring to when i am talking about two man animations....
Are there 3 men animations that could make this game even better.....i would love that...like collision from primary defender in the front and reaching collision simultaneously from a help defender from behind.....or PnR collision animation between dribbler screener and defender as the dribbler scrapes off the screener as he passes by and bumping off the defender
And to your last point about the play books and tinkering with it for hours ...am not saying anything about that.....all i want is for the CPU to stop doing the zombie plays with lots of standing around and moving with out effort...i don't play CPU modes am strictly vs humans.
But i know none better than Da_Czar to iron these things out cause he is best suited for it...so now it is only a matter of time before things get better with the new additions at VC
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All the movement this year is coordinated. If you recall last year the play would break with complex movement because guys were sprinting and bumping.
Also as you see more of the game you will see we have a variety of movement. If you always move at the same speed your easier to guard was the philosophy. So with offscreen plays like floppy's or 12 quick's you will not see all out turbo you will see him build speed and sometime hit a burst when it counts to get open.
I think this gradual change of speed and the smoothness of the animations is giving the impression of a lack of urgency. Maybe they need to be even MORE urgent which is what I hear you saying.
We have counters for cheating defenders so it is not all about beating a guy to a spot this year. Also the D has penalties for turbo usage so offscreen has a tad more cat and mouse this year.
What I THINK you will see as you see more is that the game is running at a 48 min pace. It is hard to get a feel for that just watching a play here or a play there. Also you should notice teams like houston have much less complex plays that therefore run faster that theoretically should enable them to have more possessions than a team like the knicks.
NBA players don't always sprint everywhere. I do agree that in general the game doesn't LOOK explosive be it changing speeds on offense or running off a screen off ball.
It is def a different pace than what you were used to in 2k14. Once you get hands on if you choose to pick it up or demo it. And you can see the benefits of the movement we have on offense then I want to know how you feel about speeding that up and negatives that are associated with it.
We matched the offense closely to what is the most the motion system can handle. I changed philosophy in the design of the plays 3 times this cycle according to how the motion system was being developed.
Considering all pro's and con's I felt really good about where the system was at.
But as I said my ears are def open. Just sharing that it was not a trivial decision and a lot of testing and thought went into it my part. That by no means, means LOL it can't be better.
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Marc Price (of Good Game Bro) has been critical of the A.I. in NBA 2K (and their competition) for some time, with some excellent analysis, comparing real NBA offenses with their 2K counterparts. The footage from 2K14 looks largely similar to what we see in the OP. The A.I. executes, but it is generally slow and illogical. This is an area that should be in consideration for an overhaul for the next iteration.
The A.I.'s logic should be much more simple in nature. Currently it appears to calculate inefficient variables (location, ratings, defensive position, play-calling, etc.) in an inefficient equation. I think an analogy would be the A.I. attempting to use trigonometry to triangulate the distance between my couch and the TV, instead of just grabbing a ruler.
The A.I. does some things well, such as attacking a defender that is out of position, and that may be a huge part of the problem. It's too reliant on expecting an opposing defense to slip-up, and the plan b is to just cheese the opponent with precision passes, precisely timed jump-shots, or a bevy of isomotion/post moves.
Every play should be able to bend a defense based on the personnel at hand. The Knicks' A.I. using Amare should have taken into account the time available (9 seconds remaining). From there, the Knicks should have either cleared out for Amare to isolate and attack McRoberts, or hurried up for Melo to catch the ball deeper into the low post.
The opening seconds of the OP's video shows no real action going on. Again, this is unacceptable. Calderon is not the personnel at hand to have the ball in his hands with 9 seconds on the clock, if he's not initiating any sort of two-man action.
The A.I. should immediately break a play-set once it determines there's not enough time for it to develop, and shouldn't settle for a weird Calderon/D-Wade isolation that eats up the shot clock if something breaks down or goes awry. Isomotion isn't working? Okay, quick post. Another pick and roll? Maybe, there should be dribble hand-offs in the next game as well. I don't all of these options to occur in one possession, but systematically develop based on the variables I've listed a bit later.
So, time and personnel should be constants within this equation the A.I. calculates each possession offensively. As a constant, these numbers never change. From there, the variables should be questions such as:
What did the defense do the previous trip down the floor? Did we have open shooters? Did we get a uncontested shot, or draw a foul? Were we able to set up our offense?
Basketball is no different from a game of chess or football in regards to strategizing what to do. The A.I. should be calculating moves way ahead of the opponent similar to how humans do. The A.I. should be attempting to set up the knock-out punch instead of randomly calling plays from a play-book.
Playbooks themselves should be another variable the A.I. calculates within this equation. Coaches should be able to pick out and run the most time efficient sets based on their personnel. From there, contengencies should be very simple, yet carry the same purpose that fits the skillet of the players on the floor.
Floppy plays for example? They're terrible in 2K. Human controlled opponents will cheat the defender around the screen and attempt to intercept the pass at best. These plays should probably be removed from the game if guards and forwards using the screens can't flare out or back-door to the hoop if the defender cheats, or if another defender helps.
Why? Because the point guard will stand for at least 8 seconds, waiting for the play to develop. A simple floppy, into a low-post entry pass provides two opportunities for a wing player to have an open look in the same span of time. Penetration from a pick and roll, can find an open shooter just the same.
The A.I. should calculate what play to run based on the personnel. San Antonio? Floppy post. Los Angeles Clippers? Pick and roll action. The initial desired result is the same (an open shooter), but the contingencies are baked right into the play design itself, making the reads much more simple in nature for a player to make. Either a teammate is open, or the player with the ball is in prime position to score the ball.
The A.I.'s logic should be much more simple in nature. Currently it appears to calculate inefficient variables (location, ratings, defensive position, play-calling, etc.) in an inefficient equation. I think an analogy would be the A.I. attempting to use trigonometry to triangulate the distance between my couch and the TV, instead of just grabbing a ruler.
The A.I. does some things well, such as attacking a defender that is out of position, and that may be a huge part of the problem. It's too reliant on expecting an opposing defense to slip-up, and the plan b is to just cheese the opponent with precision passes, precisely timed jump-shots, or a bevy of isomotion/post moves.
Every play should be able to bend a defense based on the personnel at hand. The Knicks' A.I. using Amare should have taken into account the time available (9 seconds remaining). From there, the Knicks should have either cleared out for Amare to isolate and attack McRoberts, or hurried up for Melo to catch the ball deeper into the low post.
The opening seconds of the OP's video shows no real action going on. Again, this is unacceptable. Calderon is not the personnel at hand to have the ball in his hands with 9 seconds on the clock, if he's not initiating any sort of two-man action.
The A.I. should immediately break a play-set once it determines there's not enough time for it to develop, and shouldn't settle for a weird Calderon/D-Wade isolation that eats up the shot clock if something breaks down or goes awry. Isomotion isn't working? Okay, quick post. Another pick and roll? Maybe, there should be dribble hand-offs in the next game as well. I don't all of these options to occur in one possession, but systematically develop based on the variables I've listed a bit later.
So, time and personnel should be constants within this equation the A.I. calculates each possession offensively. As a constant, these numbers never change. From there, the variables should be questions such as:
What did the defense do the previous trip down the floor? Did we have open shooters? Did we get a uncontested shot, or draw a foul? Were we able to set up our offense?
Basketball is no different from a game of chess or football in regards to strategizing what to do. The A.I. should be calculating moves way ahead of the opponent similar to how humans do. The A.I. should be attempting to set up the knock-out punch instead of randomly calling plays from a play-book.
Playbooks themselves should be another variable the A.I. calculates within this equation. Coaches should be able to pick out and run the most time efficient sets based on their personnel. From there, contengencies should be very simple, yet carry the same purpose that fits the skillet of the players on the floor.
Floppy plays for example? They're terrible in 2K. Human controlled opponents will cheat the defender around the screen and attempt to intercept the pass at best. These plays should probably be removed from the game if guards and forwards using the screens can't flare out or back-door to the hoop if the defender cheats, or if another defender helps.
Why? Because the point guard will stand for at least 8 seconds, waiting for the play to develop. A simple floppy, into a low-post entry pass provides two opportunities for a wing player to have an open look in the same span of time. Penetration from a pick and roll, can find an open shooter just the same.
The A.I. should calculate what play to run based on the personnel. San Antonio? Floppy post. Los Angeles Clippers? Pick and roll action. The initial desired result is the same (an open shooter), but the contingencies are baked right into the play design itself, making the reads much more simple in nature for a player to make. Either a teammate is open, or the player with the ball is in prime position to score the ball.
# 87
The 24th Letter @ 09/14/14 02:05 PM
I definitely understand the gripe with some of 2k's animations...but as these conversations carry on, there tends be a bit of an exaggeration of how detrimental they are to game. We saw a game last year that suffered from a lack of sufficient animations and it wasn't pretty. We've also seen this in past 2k games. For me personally, I
could have the most crisp controls ever created...if contact can't be generated a reliable rate because of the lack of sufficient animations...THATS not basketball either. People like to throw "physics" out there as the end all solution to all of this...but those physics would be plugged into animations as well.
Animations are necessary. There just needs to be a balance.
could have the most crisp controls ever created...if contact can't be generated a reliable rate because of the lack of sufficient animations...THATS not basketball either. People like to throw "physics" out there as the end all solution to all of this...but those physics would be plugged into animations as well.
Animations are necessary. There just needs to be a balance.
# 88
Boilerbuzz @ 09/14/14 02:14 PM
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It's just that gameplay + animation has yet to make that visible "next-gen" jump like the graphics have imo.
# 90
Boilerbuzz @ 09/14/14 02:16 PM
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# 91
Boilerbuzz @ 09/14/14 02:21 PM
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# 92
Rockie_Fresh88 @ 09/14/14 02:25 PM
Very good points from both sides.
I don't think nobody it's saying physics need to 100% we're asking for steady improvements to footplanting , ball physics , animations w/ less control.
At some point you have to ask does 2k start improving these areas to make the game feel as next gen as it looks ?
I don't think nobody it's saying physics need to 100% we're asking for steady improvements to footplanting , ball physics , animations w/ less control.
At some point you have to ask does 2k start improving these areas to make the game feel as next gen as it looks ?
# 93
Rockie_Fresh88 @ 09/14/14 02:26 PM
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I don't think anybody is saying it's all physics and there's no need for balance. It's just that the balance is off for a lot of us and it should be geared more towards physics than it currently is.
# 95
Boilerbuzz @ 09/14/14 02:27 PM
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# 96
Boilerbuzz @ 09/14/14 02:29 PM
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# 98
Boilerbuzz @ 09/14/14 02:34 PM
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# 99
The 24th Letter @ 09/14/14 02:36 PM
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It has steady improved though...
It's funny, Live 10 & NBA 2K11, games everyone loved, were HEAVY on 2 man animations...like literal stop/start animations at the rim.....because hey, they're reliable...as the company's have been striving to get away from that, there's been some bumps...but it's steady improved overall....especially bang bang plays at the rim...
# 100
Rockie_Fresh88 @ 09/14/14 02:42 PM
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It's those instances ( and a few more) where I would like to have more control . It flows and looks really good but sometimes it's not what I want
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