Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on release

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Thought so too.

September 18th P&R defense for reference

https://youtu.be/ys2Wr6Yl9JM

Looks similar.

I thought drop coverage was one of our big asks?...What time frame was the the CPU doing that? Would be a great point of reference.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

Are you just trolling now? Lol what did you just have me watch? Haha it was 3:32 mark im assuming you are talking about. It’s not proper drop and we have discussed this in a few different threads. But I will take that d all day as far as the 2 man pnr part. That’s all pretty realistic. But I’ll continue this thought in the next post…

I think it was more about the fact that the help didn't even stunt or anything. In the NBA, help defense is waiting far in advance, even when the help isn't needed.

There's really no evidence that the help would have come had it been needed.

That’s part of it yes. To go with the thread title and what this whole thread is about is the help defense. But I also explained my points in the post above on the 2 man part. If you look at the Sam Pham video 24 posted that 2 man d is 1000x more realistic compared to the ones 24 posted the other day. Go look at the differences. It’s night and day. Actually I shouldn’t say that because I didn’t analyze it lol. So don’t pick that statement apart. But a guy getting caught on the screen caught my eye a few times.

But the whole point is the cutter, roll, and help. You guys are stuck on and talking about the band aids right now not the core issue of help defense.

We answered the question. Yes it’s harder now. They changed it. I also saw an update today so don’t know what else changed today as I haven’t tried it yet. Anyone give it a go? Any differences.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

September 18th P&R defense for reference

By the way, I am not sure the 1st patch had come out by the 18th? Not the opening day 1 which I guess could be considered the 1st patch. But I think it was shortly after this?

After the patch we started to see over screens and snake dribbles. I have videos saved on my Xbox so could use those for reference. I sent a few to arob on Xbox as well back then…

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Are you just trolling now? Lol what did you just have me watch? Haha it was 3:32 mark im assuming you are talking about. It’s not proper drop and we have discussed this in a few different threads. But I will take that d all day as far as the 2 man pnr part. That’s all pretty realistic. But I’ll continue this thought in the next post…

That’s part of it yes. To go with the thread title and what this whole thread is about is the help defense. But I also explained my points in the post above on the 2 man part. If you look at the Sam Pham video 24 posted that 2 man d is 1000x more realistic compared to the ones 24 posted the other day. Go look at the differences. It’s night and day. Actually I shouldn’t say that because I didn’t analyze it lol. So don’t pick that statement apart. But a guy getting caught on the screen caught my eye a few times.

But the whole point is the cutter, roll, and help. You guys are stuck on and talking about the band aids right now not the core issue of help defense.

We answered the question. Yes it’s harder now. They changed it. I also saw an update today so don’t know what else changed today as I haven’t tried it yet. Anyone give it a go? Any differences.

Lol, No, not trolling man.

I do feel like I'm asking if the sky is blue and you are detailing the history of the color spectrum in response though.

This isn't me going against you, Literally just having a discussion.

So here's what I'm asking...In regards to Phams video, how the coverage is different/better in comparison to the way its 'band-aided' in the one I posted? 1000x better at that, can you explain?



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[The 24th Letter]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

By the way, I am not sure the 1st patch had come out by the 18th? Not the opening day 1 which I guess could be considered the 1st patch. But I think it was shortly after this?

After the patch we started to see over screens and snake dribbles. I have videos saved on my Xbox so could use those for reference. I sent a few to arob on Xbox as well back then…

Last patch before October was 1.03- Sept 16th if I'm not mistaken.

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[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Lol, No, not trolling man.

I do feel like I'm asking if the sky is blue and you are detailing the history of the color spectrum in response though.

This isn't me going against you, Literally just having a discussion.

So here's what I'm asking...In regards to Phams video, how the coverage is different/better in comparison to the way its 'band-aided' in the one I posted? 1000x better at that, can you explain?



Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

LMAO! I do feel like I’m having to repeat myself so I don’t know if I’m not explaining it properly or we just see 2 different things?

I told you not to do that and hold that accountable for the comment as I hadn’t analyzed it but just noticed a few things but I’ll bite. Lol! I’ll go look again at both and post here. But I do think I saw a post from you and a few others in the impressions thread specifically talking about how everyone liked the defenders going over and not under after the patch so that’s 1 thing. The no help is another and really what this is all about. Not the 2 man PNR part although I know it’s also been a talking point in here when it was wide open layups with no containment…

…

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

LMAO! I do feel like I’m having to repeat myself so I don’t know if I’m not explaining it properly or we just see 2 different things?



I told you not to do that and hold that accountable for the comment as I hadn’t analyzed it but just noticed a few things but I’ll bite. Lol! I’ll go look again at both and post here. But I do think I saw a post from you and a few others in the impressions thread specifically talking about how everyone liked the defenders going over and not under after the patch so that’s 1 thing. The no help is another and really what this is all about. Not the 2 man PNR part although I know it’s also been a talking point in here when it was wide open layups with no containment…



…

Gotcha. I do get what you're saying overall. Trust me, I do get that there's some deficiencies in help defense. Game still struggles to contain when the on ball defender gets blown up for instance.

My bad, re-reading...and seeing that you said that regarding Pham's video. Please do bite, would love your opinion on it.

Regarding what Victor touched on as well...

One thing stuck out to me in video I posted, is that Jimmy Butller sold out from the corner to help when Fox cleared his man. (Yes from a pass away, but one of those acceptable 911 situations to protect the rim IMO) Thoughts on that?


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[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

1st off I’d say in these videos feeedom of movement is pretty good overall. No stonewalls happening all the time. But I’d also say the contains aren’t great but we don’t want it perfect all the time we need variance as well… I just streamed 9 minutes of my clips I saved showing scrambles, help d, freedom of movement, snake dribbles, rotations before and after from different spots good and bad, hip rides with no stone walking but good defense, etc but it doesn’t show because it’s not in game and recognizes in my settings or something. That was a waste of time as I set it all up too. Hence the delayed response. I got tons of clips I just can’t share them. Ugh Anyways… Sorry… I wanted to show the difference in Sam’s videos, yours, and mine. I’ll figure it out if it’s the end of me…

Sam Phams Videos - https://youtu.be/ys2Wr6Yl9JM

1:01 mark - the on ball defender makes contact with the screener and doesn’t warp through unrealistically. It’s a bad contain BUT he at least recovers. The problem in this one is no help on the roll and the ball handler has 2.

1:30 mark - good freedom of movement and hip ride and the big stayed so pretty good here as well and no help needed but the lob was obviously overpowered but I wouldn’t know that. Again, pretty realistic. He never set the screen up so never any contact so really hard to say. But on ball d sliders could help contain that a bit.

1:55 mark - horrible contain by the big, but no warping through the screen with the on ball defender either which is good. Obviously no help though which if it was there it changes things.

Side note - what is he talking about with the Spain version? Lmao

2:40 mark - this is all bad. Horrible on ball. He gets through and isn’t at super speed though which is good but never contains. But it’s dragic…

2:58 mark - never makes contact with screener. So mute point but slow bigs and no help.

3:32 mark - This is the best one. Screener makes contact, big contains, guard switches (but more importantly doesn’t warp through).

3:40 mark - no contact then sets a 2nd screen. Like how guard gets caught again but bad contain and top guy helps but no backside tag.

3:53 mark - this is pretty good as well. The guard gets caught up on screen and pretty good realistic recovery.

4:03 mark - gets caught up and once recovers to man big goes back to his man. No unrealistic warping.

24 videos - https://streamable.com/gm5xj1

1st video - it’s like the screen never happened. On ball defender in super speed and goes under with no contact animation. Big also faster.

2nd video - no contact again like screen never happened. I mean it’s fox so he beats his man with his 97 speed. But the screen never used.

3rd video - no screen contact again. But a great switch but those have always been pretty good as I haven’t had a problem with switches. But when they switch I just boomerang back to top and iso like irl and small ball was gone as I said earlier I got stonewalled 3x with Chris Paul Vs Looney in iso.

I mean my 1000x better was a over exaggeratiion obviously lol! That defense wasn’t great, no help was there at all outside the 2 man stuff.

But for me the difference is the freedom of movement along with contact on the screen like irl. I’d take the freedom of movement and screen contact with Sam Phams videos and the containment by the big on yours in a perfect world. It’s a feel thing as well. I played it and noticed defenders flying through and under like their was never a screen like at launch just like your videos showed. That also takes away the snake dribble and realistic coverages. Obviously the help wasn’t good in any of them off ball or we don’t know in some cases. 2 or 3 of Sam’s coverages (outside of no help) we’re pretty good but apparently the lob pass overrides that? But you can tweak that down in sliders but wish I never saw that part.

They had to do something and they did it with under coverage, speed, higher, & get through screens in the update last Friday. But irl the pnr is hard to defend and you don’t just get around a screen easily or without help or complete team defense. If it was easy we wouldn’t see teams run it 75% of games.

Like I said earlier I think it’s about balance. Finding the right balance for both offense and defense that isn’t overpowered or unrealistic on both sides of the ball.

But this is just the pnr 2 man part. The freedom of movement and player getting caught on screens is realistic. Players get beat, that’s why the tag, contain, and help are so important. All I know is it was good at 1 point. Whether it was an update after a patch or right after a patch I don’t know. But it was damn good at some point because I was loving it and could never spam anything. At least not I’m a 1-2 week period. It felt good…

Like I said I have great videos right after the good patch that I was planning on showing with this for context and contrast. It would have been a perfect where we were to where we are today.

Edit:

Ok I got it to work… I have a ton more but let’s just look at these for now. These are all Vs cpu. Look at help and what used to be in 2k after the great patch compared to today. Snake dribble, freedom of movement, help d, X out scrambles, etc… These are examples of balance and good basketball IMO that replicate today’s game.


#1 - Snake dribble off of Chicago / Pistol Action

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/status/1455543238358618120?s=21

#2 - Snake dribble #2 with a stepback read on drop defender.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/status/1455545208360390662?s=21

#3 - Help on the drive & kick.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/status/1455542335761223695?s=21

#4 - Freedom of movement with hip rides on drive and kick and good cpu d. No sticky d but still good cpu d. This is with sliders adjusted to have balance on drive and kick game for cpu d.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/status/1455544126817112070?s=21

#5 - 1 more pass and cpu X out scramble to recover. Good realistic real life basketball.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/status/1455546382459174915?s=21

#6 - skip ahead slightly to :26 second mark in this video. Another X out scramble by cpu and 1 more pass to corner 3. Real basketball.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/...907464193?s=21

#7 - This is last but best cpu X out scramble for a contest. Great basketball defense here and recognition by cpu to X out fast. It’s the 2nd jazz play in this video… Skip to :42 second mark.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/...463986689?s=21

#8 - 2 plays back to back drive and kicks as the cpu mixed defensive coverages and help. Again good basketball. Watch both Jazz possessions…

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/...518312963?s=21


All of these aren’t perfect but all provided good fun basketball experiences. I haven’t seen any of this stuff for a month.

[Mikelopedia]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I think at the end of the day we all want the same thing. If we are playing NBA gameplay we want to be playing something that gets closer and closer to representing the product we see on tv when enjoying NBA basketball. I think we'd all be thrilled if the varying experiences and difficulty we faced in the AI came from the separation in good and bad defenders making the correct or incorrect reads. We all know and agree that limiting the PnR coverage to simply how well 2 guys can bump and get in the way of another 2 guys isn't the answer, but we all simply have varying levels of expectations, patience, and enjoyment.
Some of us can't get over 2k going backwards from launch and it ruins our enjoyment, some consider what we have now better than 2k21, and some havent played in a couple years and are in awe of the positives. Some of us can't police ourselves whether it be laying off turbo or playing off ball etc. But again at the end of the day, everyone in this thread wants to see 2k defense represent NBA defense.

Anyway, I'd like to point out a positive and a negative.

First the positive, I've noticed that certain defensive settings seem to be working again. Off ball settings matter, you see a difference between gap and moderate even (even though gap is still nowhere near what it should be). I set everyone to gap and this does help in certain situations allowing your teammates to help on drives and pnr, though I don't recommend doing this unless you adjust pass speed (more on that later). PnR coverages stick (although still no drop coverage) these changes does stick. I even set pre rotate to on, and I saw it at least a couple times, so not sure enough to say it isn't still broken, but it did do something. Baby steps again.

The negative. Kinda a bit of both, but the negative lies in the frustration in seeing that an easy solution was in fact available and ignored.
In my sliders, I tried pass speed at 1 and I was amazed at the results. It's not what you think, all passes don't move at a snails pace, but rather more loft is added relative to the distance you're trying to throw. This creates more danger in cross court passes. Try it out, 1 away and 2 away passes also still move at a realistic speed, but you'll really see the difference trying to throw the ball down the court, out of a double team to the opposite wing, or trying to hit the opposite open corner, wont just be throwing darts anymore.

Why this upsets me is in one of Czar's videos he mentioned how ideally they'd adjust passing to make it harder to "dot" the corner if you had proper weakside NBA help D, but that they aren't able to do that currently. This is the whole reason help D was removed, guys were able to bait open corner 3s. However, a simple slider adjustment would have helped give the defense time to recover. I'm not sure why this wasn't the route taken as you can't tell me it's not an easy fix if I just did it with the gameplay sliders you provided me with.

I'm telling you guys, set pass speed to 1, stand on the wing and pass to the opposite corner and tell me you cant visualize a sagging defender having plenty of time to close out or the wing to rotate over.

[amioran]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Thought so too.

September 18th P&R defense for reference

https://youtu.be/ys2Wr6Yl9JM

Looks similar.

I thought drop coverage was one of our big asks?...What time frame was the the CPU doing that? Would be a great point of reference.

The problem with this video you posted is that Sam uses a well known trick in the "comp" community to literally force the defense to stick to their men by confusing the coverage. He goes on a 5 out (typical, all AI exploits always start from the 5 out), starts the play from far away (so the defense is not yet properly set) and he calls the weakside to come for the PnR (he even says these things specifically in the video itself). Doing these things creates a context in which the AI "bugs", creating artificial holes in the defense. Another way to do the same things is to call a screen and pass away from a 5 out position, reject it and call the corner man to PnR instead, it gives the same result (and it is a well known trick used by the "comp" community from years now to farm for badges in MC, albeit this year it didn't work as effectively as before).

It is literally like using a cheese tactic in a RPG, something you know the AI cannot cope well with, getting confused and not reacting properly. There are people that search endlessly in the gaming community for AI holes to exploit to make the so-called "speed runs", as it is impossible to create perfect AI that cannot be expolited doing certain specific things that the programmers never considered.

[amioran]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Why this upsets me is in one of Czar's videos he mentioned how ideally they'd adjust passing to make it harder to "dot" the corner if you had proper weakside NBA help D, but that they aren't able to do that currently.

When I hear these things from Czar given my background I cannot but get a bit suspicious sometimes on what he really means when he talks about what they can or cannot do. I obviously cannot know how their engine is structured and works specifically internally but I frankly doubt that it is so far removed from any other gaming engine around that devs are unable to check for simple line of sight ray traces (that are a standard in every 3D gaming engine known to mankind - even the old source engine had them natively) or they are unable to implement such simple checks even if not already present in the engine (even here, or their engine is made with an unknown programming language or I find it hard to sincerely believe that they "cannot do it").

So when I hear that a feature that's pretty easy to implement (albeit surely time consuming to adapt perfectly in a specific context) being "impossible to do atm" I cannot refrain from raising an eyebrow on the matter. I'm not saying here that Czar is lying, but maybe when he says "we cannot do it" many times I think he actually means another thing than the literal meaning of the sentence (something more in tune with "it's a change that could negatively impact the majority of the user base that we actually want to target and it's not a priority right now to go on the hassle of balancing it properly") or that he simply reports what has been told to him by somebody's else, without him knowing if it's actually true or not.

As for putting passing speed to 1 in the sliders also that's not realistic as simply lowering the speed of all passes globally (even when they shouldn't be slow) removes separation between good and bad passers and gives the defense too much time to react even when they shouldn't be able to do so (for example in 1 pass away scenarios).

[NYJin2011tm]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Kind of sad with advancements in technology when I have more fun and want to play a game that’s five years old more than one of the newer ones. Developers(in all games) tout smarter AI when new systems come out but seems like AI has gotten dumber. At least the older games have injuries and fouls.

[Agame]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Great Read, LOVE the PASSION from everyone.


Here is the play that I use to see if there is anyway to get the CPU A.I. players to perform some time of help defense. 0-40. The CPU never has reacted to play with any type of defensive help. Dunk or layup 40 straight times. UGH!!

Quick Stagger First Double( play is under Pick & Roll Option)

(I am challenged on how to load a video so someone please run this play and post it on this site/Thread. Really poor reaction from CPU players).

Defensive settings changes that help on other PNR plays (on occasion) have done nothing to stop this play. Oh how I miss the first week or so of NBA 2k22's gameplay. It was so much better.

P.S. I am still enjoying the game to some degree, just miss the Good Old Days of one month ago

[Mikelopedia]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

As for putting passing speed to 1 in the sliders also that's not realistic as simply lowering the speed of all passes globally (even when they shouldn't be slow) removes separation between good and bad passers and gives the defense too much time to react even when they shouldn't be able to do so (for example in 1 pass away scenarios).

Did you try it though? That was my point is that it DOESN'T do what you are saying. There is still separation between good and bad passers with the pass accuracy rating, break starter badge and bullet passer badge. The pass speed slider adds realistic loft to the pass relative to how far away it is. 1 away passes are not affected in the way you are describing or as this slider did in past 2ks. I still have no unrealistic issue kicking to an open shooter. Try it.

[loso_34]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Don't do that. Ha

off topic but you made a good call predicting vanvleet would be a starting Pg 5-6 years ago.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Ok I got it to work… I have a ton more but let’s just look at these for now. These are all Vs cpu. Look at help and what used to be in 2k after the great patch compared to today. Snake dribble, freedom of movement, help d, X out scrambles, etc… These are examples of balance and good basketball IMO that replicate today’s game.


#1 - Snake dribble off of Chicago / Pistol Action

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/status/1455543238358618120?s=21

#2 - Snake dribble #2 with a stepback read on drop defender.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/status/1455545208360390662?s=21

#3 - Help on the drive & kick.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/status/1455542335761223695?s=21

#4 - Freedom of movement with hip rides on drive and kick and good cpu d. No sticky d or stone walls, but still good cpu d. This is with sliders adjusted to have balance on drive and kick game for cpu d.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/status/1455544126817112070?s=21

#5 - 1 more pass and cpu X out scramble to recover. Good realistic real life basketball. This is what we see on tv with extra pass for corner 3’s with defense scrambling to rotate. This is sim basketball.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/status/1455546382459174915?s=21

#6 - skip ahead slightly to :26 second mark in this video. Another X out scramble by cpu and 1 more pass to corner 3. Real basketball.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/...907464193?s=21

#7 - This is last but best cpu X out scramble for a contest. Great basketball defense here and recognition by cpu to X out fast. It’s the 2nd jazz play in this video… Skip to :42 second mark.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/...463986689?s=21

#8 - 2 plays back to back drive and kicks as the cpu mixed defensive coverages and help. Again good basketball. Watch both Jazz possessions…

This video was I believe after oct. 1st patch hence no real help contain on drive. The 1st clip highlights the to slow to recognize from weak side while the 2nd clip highlights the bad rotation logic on 2 side like I talked about earlier in the thread. The bottom guy should help while the top wing defender drops to play 2 and then take the 1st pass out followed by an X out instead. But like I said I don’t need perfect so just seeing rotations are better than not. But they just need to speed the weak help defender up to recognize earlier. That’s if help was to come again.

https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/...518312963?s=21


All of these aren’t perfect but all provided good fun basketball experiences. I haven’t seen any of this stuff for a month.