Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on release

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  • alabamarob
    MVP
    • Nov 2010
    • 3340

    #886
    Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

    Originally posted by loso_34
    off topic but you made a good call predicting vanvleet would be a starting Pg 5-6 years ago.
    Vanvleet is a champion and a winner. Will always be one of my favorite players.
    Psn: Alabamarob
    Xbox: Alabama Rob

    Youtube: 2k Hawks

    Settings I play on.
    Minutes: 12
    Difficulty: HOF
    Online or Offline player: Both
    In a MLO: Yes

    Comment

    • vannwolfhawk
      MVP
      • Jun 2009
      • 3412

      #887
      Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

      So I just tried the update for this morning. It is playing pretty good. They got rid of the unrealistic defense from videos shared here previously. It’s realistic again, I also had a snake dribble, and this just happened…



      Dare I say a tag and help & recover? Off to test some more. Still not seeing the rotations on pnpops anymore unfortunately like I showed earlier. But it feels much better so far and more balanced.

      Here is no pick and pop help. Refer to the x outs by cpu in my previous post videos for context.



      Definitely more variety on PNR’s now that play out more realistically. But haven’t seen another tag so probably an anamoly?

      But here is a 2nd tag although late and bad read by me.



      I think I figured out the problem with consistency on the tag. The roller usually rolls late and the ball handler is already at the paint as the roll starts to happen and the tag help doesn’t recognize it because there is no roll threat yet although the offensive ball handler is already driving and in the paint. Hmm Because I’ve seen the tag a few times and that’s when it’s triggered. I think this is where some will feel it’s too easy again because of this with easy layups or some easy rolls but I’m ok as long as there is variety here.

      Here is a great stunt and recover by cpu Morant on the pnpop … definitely seeing some encouraging things in this update!

      Last edited by vannwolfhawk; 11-02-2021, 01:40 PM.
      Basketball Playbooks
      http://www.nextplayhoops.com

      Comment

      • The 24th Letter
        ERA
        • Oct 2007
        • 39373

        #888
        Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

        All great videos Vann.

        As far as freedom of movement, snake dribbling...You feel that the on-ball has become too sticky again to replicate that? I feel I'm still able to do that.

        These videos are as of last night but I captured them because I felt they all showed really good help/ recognition from the defense.

        Would also like to point out, despite my initial videos, that glitchy 'go over' isn't the only result I see on screens...you'll see examples of the defender dying or fightihg through, or slow to get around them as well.



        Drive and kick



        Not the best example, but able to operate in the middle of the floor, caught the CPU reaching

        https://streamable.com/aa4ulk

        Step back off P&R

        https://streamable.com/khlzjj

        and these are on default...seems like sliders would only help.

        Also note, I've missed some of the peaks and valleys being a part time online player as well...but this is what I'm seeing recently.

        EDIT: This was before your latest post

        Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
        Last edited by The 24th Letter; 11-02-2021, 01:33 PM.

        Comment

        • xCoachDx
          MVP
          • Aug 2015
          • 1295

          #889
          Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

          Originally posted by amioran
          The problem is that the "variance" you have shown has nothing to do with real basketball, but it just shows the various band aids the AI has to help circumvent the lack of help defense (and also proper drop defense). The video you posted shows clearly that the PNR is really about a 2 vs 2 game, where the only variables concern the defenders involved in such scenario and really nobody else's. It's like changing a game of chess to have only the white vs black rooks and queens play against one another instead than having also pawns, bishops and knights around to interact with. The context becomes completely different.

          Yeah just what little bit I saw literally shows plain as day the problems we are having. A ball screen gets set and the weakside absolutely doesn’t move. The idea of “oh well they didn’t have to move because they defended the ball screen” is bad logic. Imagine if IRL help defense only came at the moment it was determined it was needed. That would be entirely too late. The weakside defenders should be stepping in to help as the screen is getting set. How much/how little depends offensive personnel. But the idea of allowing just two players to consistently defend a pick and roll is unrealistic from a basketball standpoint.

          Comment

          • xCoachDx
            MVP
            • Aug 2015
            • 1295

            #890
            Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on release

            Originally posted by BaselineBakes
            Grabbed some clips today. HOF against the CPU on a roster maybe about two weeks old. I player lock with a created PG with no playmaking badges (too overpowered) and speed and acceleration capped at 85 for my player.

            Most of these plays are pick and rolls in the flow of the offense (I leave play calling on auto). Some of them are manual picks. I try not to use manual picks very often. My success rate is high but the outcomes are varied enough for me that things stay interesting. I’ve never tried to go wide intentionally and abuse the PNR that way so I can’t speak to that.

            https://youtu.be/C45GDW-E-4M

            Play 1 - CPU slides under and C doesn’t get lost
            Play 2 - C gets lost on the roll
            Play 3 - Slow footed PF but center recovers
            Play 4 - Guard lets me turn the corner
            Play 5 - Guard lets me turn the corner again
            Play 6 - C gets beat but recovers
            Play 7 C lets me turn the corner
            Play 8 - Good under and recover
            Play 9 - Rejected the screen and got free
            Play 10 - Blown coverage hit the roller
            Play 11 - Great hedge and recover
            Play 12 - Rejected the screen got the roller


            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

            There is literally no weakside help in any way in these clips. That’s literally the problem with this game. Whether they are shooters or non-shooters, defenders just stay out there on them. That’s NEVER happening IRL. What’s worse is that help defense IS programmed in the game. It’s just essentially turned off on ball screens for the CPU for inexplicable reasons.

            There IS help on drives. Although they often come from the ballside (helping one pass away is a no no off of shooters for obvious reasons) and the full rotation of defenders isn’t quite there. It’s close enough for the most part tho.
            Last edited by xCoachDx; 11-02-2021, 02:12 PM.

            Comment

            • vannwolfhawk
              MVP
              • Jun 2009
              • 3412

              #891
              Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

              Originally posted by The 24th Letter
              All great videos Vann.

              As far as freedom of movement, snake dribbling...You feel that the on-ball has become too sticky again to replicate that? I feel I'm still able to do that.

              These videos are as of last night but I captured them because I felt they all showed really good help/ recognition from the defense.

              Would also like to point out, despite my initial videos, that glitchy 'go over' isn't the only result I see on screens...you'll see examples of the defender dying or fightihg through, or slow to get around them as well.



              Drive and kick



              Not the best example, but able to operate in the middle of the floor, caught the CPU reaching

              https://streamable.com/aa4ulk

              Step back off P&R

              https://streamable.com/khlzjj

              and these are on default...seems like sliders would only help.

              Also note, I've missed some of the peaks and valleys being a part time online player as well...but this is what I'm seeing recently.

              EDIT: This was before your latest post

              Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
              Ya all your videos look good to me as well. There was an update yesterday morning but I never tried it. There was also another update this morning and that I did try. You can definitely see the difference. It could have been yesterday though that they fixed it instead of today by looking at your videos. But I’m seeing much better help like in videos I posted in 2nd post and yours. It’s encouraging for sure!!! And yes I got some snakes again now but when you posted videos a few pages back I wasn’t because of under and fast sticky d. There isn’t as much small ball but that’s a slider thing I can slightly tweak to get balance where I like it as long as help is there which seems to be happening more now.

              My only complaint is I’d like the pnpop scrambles and help back because that was awesome, currently they stunted which I loved but in other scenario no help triggers. But like I said I don’t need perfect. This is much better overall IMO…

              Doesn’t this version feel more balanced to you than before?
              Last edited by vannwolfhawk; 11-02-2021, 02:29 PM.
              Basketball Playbooks
              http://www.nextplayhoops.com

              Comment

              • alabamarob
                MVP
                • Nov 2010
                • 3340

                #892
                Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                I have seen some pretty good rotations, and drive and kick opportunities today. If it stays this way for a week or two I will make a real comment. Otherwise, I will lay low. I have been off this game for the last few weeks, hopefully it is playable again.

                The next frontier is this. If they have made the help defense playable/realistic then they need to lower the shot success of wide open shots. I am from the small crowd of people who like to see a smaller success margin between contested and open shots. I loved when they had contested and open shot contest ratings. Right now wide open shots are unrealistically automatic. All 2k would have to do is go into the HOF sliders and lower the success rate of open shots right? Or is this a green release issue?
                Psn: Alabamarob
                Xbox: Alabama Rob

                Youtube: 2k Hawks

                Settings I play on.
                Minutes: 12
                Difficulty: HOF
                Online or Offline player: Both
                In a MLO: Yes

                Comment

                • vannwolfhawk
                  MVP
                  • Jun 2009
                  • 3412

                  #893
                  Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                  Here is another tag that I should have shot but I’m clearly not used to seeing the tag. Lol

                  https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/...710039042?s=21

                  There is variety though because sometimes I’m getting wide open lay ins with no help, others I’m getting help with a tag, and others I get with different rotations. I like the variety so far.
                  Last edited by vannwolfhawk; 11-02-2021, 03:09 PM.
                  Basketball Playbooks
                  http://www.nextplayhoops.com

                  Comment

                  • The 24th Letter
                    ERA
                    • Oct 2007
                    • 39373

                    #894
                    Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                    Originally posted by vannwolfhawk
                    Here is another tag that I should have shot but I’m clearly not used to seeing the tag. Lol



                    https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/...710039042?s=21



                    There is variety though because sometimes I’m getting wide open lay ins with no help, others I’m getting help. I like the variety so far.
                    You see me hesitate to pass on a few of my videos too, or make the wrong read...there is a lot more urgency on the weakside, the variety keeps me guessing a bit.

                    I'd agree, it feels pretty balanced atm. We will see how it goes.

                    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

                    Comment

                    • vannwolfhawk
                      MVP
                      • Jun 2009
                      • 3412

                      #895
                      Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                      Originally posted by The 24th Letter
                      You see me hesitate to pass on a few of my videos too, or make the wrong read...there is a lot more urgency on the weakside, the variety keeps me guessing a bit.

                      I'd agree, it feels pretty balanced atm. We will see how it goes.

                      Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
                      Ya I’ve had a few great cpu defensive clips that I’m like I can’t share that because it makes me look bad on my reads. Haha

                      After playing about 8 quarters now with this update and not changing any sliders (besides where they were) and because most probably think I just like complaining or am negative from posts in this thread I have to say this is the most fun I’ve had since September! So kudos for everyone in this thread as well as 2k, czar, or whoever for trying to fix it. I get everyone’s hesitancy (and I’m right there with you) on let’s see what happens and if another update screws it up but I can see and feel the difference. Much more like basketball again ATM and fun.
                      Basketball Playbooks
                      http://www.nextplayhoops.com

                      Comment

                      • talladega63
                        Rookie
                        • Oct 2013
                        • 230

                        #896
                        Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                        Vann i really like this thread and thank you because if the game is improving it is also thanks all of you.
                        Do you play on xbox?
                        I play on PC do you thinks CeltigLg roster with your playbook will be release also for PC?
                        Last edited by talladega63; 11-02-2021, 03:48 PM.

                        Comment

                        • vannwolfhawk
                          MVP
                          • Jun 2009
                          • 3412

                          #897
                          Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                          Originally posted by talladega63
                          Vann i really like this thread and thank you because if the game is improving it is also thanks all of you.
                          Do you play on xbox?
                          I play on PC do you thinks CeltigLg roster with your playbook will be release also for PC?
                          Not sure on pc. Join the server tons of guys from OS and you will recognize. I know all platforms are working round the clock. It’s pretty cool talking hoop and everyone working together. The link is in Celtics thread. It’s kind of up to each platform with guys editing and helping eacjother out. I think pf is lagging behind all the rest though to be honest. I’m on Xbox series x. But I’ll post another video of final playbooks when done like the rough draft ones.
                          Basketball Playbooks
                          http://www.nextplayhoops.com

                          Comment

                          • The 24th Letter
                            ERA
                            • Oct 2007
                            • 39373

                            #898
                            Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                            Originally posted by alabamarob
                            I have seen some pretty good rotations, and drive and kick opportunities today. If it stays this way for a week or two I will make a real comment. Otherwise, I will lay low. I have been off this game for the last few weeks, hopefully it is playable again.



                            The next frontier is this. If they have made the help defense playable/realistic then they need to lower the shot success of wide open shots. I am from the small crowd of people who like to see a smaller success margin between contested and open shots. I loved when they had contested and open shot contest ratings. Right now wide open shots are unrealistically automatic. All 2k would have to do is go into the HOF sliders and lower the success rate of open shots right? Or is this a green release issue?
                            Toning down the CPU defenders reaction time on shots would be a great look in addition to all of this...

                            Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

                            Comment

                            • vannwolfhawk
                              MVP
                              • Jun 2009
                              • 3412

                              #899
                              Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                              This is a new one I hadn’t seen before. Wide open driving lane, cpu comes into help and then we have the cpu immediately help the helper to contest the kick. Great sequence by cpu!

                              https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/...867388429?s=21
                              Basketball Playbooks
                              http://www.nextplayhoops.com

                              Comment

                              • Agame
                                Pro
                                • Sep 2003
                                • 682

                                #900
                                Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                                Originally posted by vannwolfhawk
                                This is a new one I hadn’t seen before. Wide open driving lane, cpu comes into help and then we have the cpu immediately help the helper to contest the kick. Great sequence by cpu!

                                https://twitter.com/vannwolfhawk206/...867388429?s=21
                                The Play above is: Quick Stagger First Double( play is under Pick & Roll Option)

                                This video is the FIRST time I have seen the defense react in time, all other times it's been an easy dunk or layup. NICE to see. I will get on the XBOX tonight. Thanks for posting.

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