Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

You guys were talking about this earlier in the thread regarding AI reaction/ anticipation or lack thereof.

I personally think it’s a strong point of the AI this year. They react to moves, get flat footed, “guess wrong”, and anticipate directions. It’s not perfect and there is absolutely so rubber banding that occurs, but I can see what they were going for.

You can see it in the clips I posted, that’s the stuff I’m looking for when I try and get past a defender. That’s what you’re seeing as far as successful setups.


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Pretty much. The AI cannot genuinely anticipate so 2k has some logic in there to approximate it. The AI can't guess that you are going left, but it can be programmed in such a way that a move to the right is 15% more effective if you first jab stepped left for example.

I do it with Jordan all the time. Fake spin baseline as soon as I receive the entry pass and if they bite, hit em with a fade or immediate drive to the paint. At times it does a great job of giving the illusion that the AI guessed wrong.

[howardphillips214]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Pretty much. The AI cannot genuinely anticipate so 2k has some logic in there to approximate it. The AI can't guess that you are going left, but it can be programmed in such a way that a move to the right is 15% more effective if you first jab stepped left for example.

I do it with Jordan all the time. Fake spin baseline as soon as I receive the entry pass and if they bite, hit em with a fade or immediate drive to the paint. At times it does a great job of giving the illusion that the AI guessed wrong.

Specifically this is the most STAY HOME defense I've EVER encountered.

Run a pick and roll and I SWEAR there are 5-8 possessions in a row where everyone is in everyone's jersey. They don't bite on pump fakes, you can't slip past them off the ball. I play only My career so it's especially noticable when Luka and Kyrie have the ball. Boy they shove the ball handler all day long, roughing the screener all that. It's total bull**** the way they TAKE AWAY control in order to simulate difficulty. I called six timeouts and couldn't stop the Lakers run when I was up 22 at the half.


I'm not saying I have to win every game, or even that I can't and don't enjoy a good loss. When I get beyond frustrated is when Jonas Valanciunas or whatever plays like Shaq dominating all my bigs. Sure, he's a bruiser. But he's not a ****ing 20 rebounds and 8 offensive rebounds in a game every game. But EVERY game I play against them he goes OFF on the boards.

Anthony Davis? andre Drummond? Steven Adams?

Guaranteed 5-6 offensive boards a game on 12 minute quarters. That's INSANE productivity. 10-12 second chance points for AD he averages 50 in a season in real life.

Between the pushing and shoving out on the perimeter, the airballs in the paint, the absolute inability to box out has this game virtually broken.

Plus I had to start a new My career because they can't make rosters with player and team options.

24, as much as you defend this game year after year even you have to admit the missed layups are ABSURD. I mean it don't even look right. I'll shoot the layup and it will float over the rim like they game can't even understand why I missed. The COMMENTATORS will troll me all the time too! "Boy I can't believe he missed that!" "Man... You gotta finish that when you get in tight!"

Brooooooo quit trolling me

[topwater]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

So I took some thoughtful advice from ggsimmonds and I deleted all custom rosters and sliders. Deleting the rosters hurt a bit because I did a lot of editing as far as sigs go, but I figured I'd do it because I kinda do subscribe to the theory that 2k can get kinda 'gummed up' for lack of better terms.


I edited the newest 2K roster and gave everyone at least silver blow-by, silver bulldozer, silver triple threat, silver physical handles and bronze speed boost. I then started fresh as can be on Rookie. The slider edits I did were lowering CPU on ball defense to 0, defensive awareness to 0, defensive consistency to 0, human body up sensitivity to 0, driving contact to 0 and interior contact to 0. First possession I had a PNR on the wing and the defender warped through the pick and slammed into me. I was immediately pretty PO'd. No big deal. It happens. Next possession my guy was coming off a pin down and his defender was actually a bit hung up on the screen, so I'm thinking easy money - take what I am given. As mentioned the defender was hung up a bit so he turned on the jets and as my guy was receiving the pass he bent space and time to, quite literally, smash into me forcing me to go from a triple threat to dribbling. I'm quite certain that's a foul in the NBA. Needless to say he rode my hip like a pair of tailor fit pants and I just passed it. Next possession I was on the blue play indicator and it moved, so I tried to move to the next spot to run the play and my defender smashed into me and forced me to pick up my dribble. This is on rookie, brand new everything.


I honestly am stumped. As I said before I can't imagine 24's videos. It's like we are playing different games, or versions of the game. My defenders, with massive slider disadvantages are psychic and (to be a bit dramatic) brutally physical. And if I do beat them somehow, they recover and warp 2-5 feet into me to force a contact animation and often times it's a foul on them, and somehow they end up in front of me.


The differences in the videos used as examples recently in this thread have me thinking it's possibly a game mode issue or maybe just weird luck of the draw roster thing because said differences are profound. They are literal polar opposites. Again - 24's video is quite literally an impossibility in my experience. I have zero pride and/or ego and can concede user error 99% of the time, but this ain't me. It's something I haven't figured out yet.


One thing I am noticing is that during these overly physical/warping interactions my blow-by badge is always triggered, yet it does nothing as I gain no ground and lose a charge (lol BS mini games - thanks 2K!!!!). Even if they were to kick in there has to be at least a few times where I legit beat a guy and don't have to have my defender draped on me smashing me all the way to the cup, much like 24's videos.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

So I took some thoughtful advice from ggsimmonds and I deleted all custom rosters and sliders. Deleting the rosters hurt a bit because I did a lot of editing as far as sigs go, but I figured I'd do it because I kinda do subscribe to the theory that 2k can get kinda 'gummed up' for lack of better terms.


I edited the newest 2K roster and gave everyone at least silver blow-by, silver bulldozer, silver triple threat, silver physical handles and bronze speed boost. I then started fresh as can be on Rookie. The slider edits I did were lowering CPU on ball defense to 0, defensive awareness to 0, defensive consistency to 0, human body up sensitivity to 0, driving contact to 0 and interior contact to 0. First possession I had a PNR on the wing and the defender warped through the pick and slammed into me. I was immediately pretty PO'd. No big deal. It happens. Next possession my guy was coming off a pin down and his defender was actually a bit hung up on the screen, so I'm thinking easy money - take what I am given. As mentioned the defender was hung up a bit so he turned on the jets and as my guy was receiving the pass he bent space and time to, quite literally, smash into me forcing me to go from a triple threat to dribbling. I'm quite certain that's a foul in the NBA. Needless to say he rode my hip like a pair of tailor fit pants and I just passed it. Next possession I was on the blue play indicator and it moved, so I tried to move to the next spot to run the play and my defender smashed into me and forced me to pick up my dribble. This is on rookie, brand new everything.


I honestly am stumped. As I said before I can't imagine 24's videos. It's like we are playing different games, or versions of the game. My defenders, with massive slider disadvantages are psychic and (to be a bit dramatic) brutally physical. And if I do beat them somehow, they recover and warp 2-5 feet into me to force a contact animation and often times it's a foul on them, and somehow they end up in front of me.


The differences in the videos used as examples recently in this thread have me thinking it's possibly a game mode issue or maybe just weird luck of the draw roster thing because said differences are profound. They are literal polar opposites. Again - 24's video is quite literally an impossibility in my experience. I have zero pride and/or ego and can concede user error 99% of the time, but this ain't me. It's something I haven't figured out yet.


One thing I am noticing is that during these overly physical/warping interactions my blow-by badge is always triggered, yet it does nothing as I gain no ground and lose a charge (lol BS mini games - thanks 2K!!!!). Even if they were to kick in there has to be at least a few times where I legit beat a guy and don't have to have my defender draped on me smashing me all the way to the cup, much like 24's videos.

I want to reiterate that I suggested default rosters, default sliders. If its something you haven't figured out yet then you need to start from baseline. Making wholesale roster edits and extreme slider changes right off the bat is not how you establish the baseline.

1. Default rookie, default rosters
2. Pick a player. Could be your favorite player or the one you think has the nicest bag.
3. Go into edit player but don't edit a single thing. Go to signature>>dribble and just watch. Look at each animation.
4. Go into freestyle practice and just do the moves you saw in #3. No turbo, no left stick.
5. Pick a move. Could be the one easiest to pull off or you think looks the nicest. Your choice. Do that move experimenting with different launch points with and without turbo. Repeat as many times necessary until you get the timing down for a seamless move.
6. Then combo it by doing a setup move first. The first move I got the feel was doing the shammgod with Francis. I would do an aggressive breakdown first, and about midway thru when the ball goes back to Francis' right hand I would fire off the shammgod and it looked like one continuous move.
7. Don't attack the basket at first. Just keep redoing the combo until you are comfortable with it, and only then do you finish with driving to the hoop.
8. Repeat as necessary.

There's other things you can do. I struggled with the snatchback at first. So I went into freestyle practice and picked a spot on the floor and said "this is the spot on the floor I want to end up at" and then did a drive followed by snatchback until I consistently ended up at that exact spot on the floor.

All this may sound basic, but if you struggled to reach a play set off point then it suggests you may want to start at the basic level. And for crying out loud stay off turbo. Get a feel for 2k's movement system because that post strongly suggests you don't have that feel right now and you are trying to compensate with extreme slider changes and that will never get you there.

[m29a]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

I don't think the differing views on this are about game mode, roster, or sliders. I think it boils down to preferences. I can get to the paint often enough, and I have seen drives that look fluid, but the problem I have is how it's happening and the general mechanics.

I understand that people like the defense as-is and it probably works well for the online crowd, but I do think the existing sliders are not enough. I remember years ago tweeting to Mike Wang about a blow-by slider (at 0 it's 2k18 again, at 100 it's stonewall city). That'd be nice, along with an AI reaction time slider -- to really fine tune things on the defensive end.

Also the ability to globally set how all AI teams defend by default (if I want them to start off with moderate pressure, instead of smother), that'd be good too. But maybe that is asking too much for something that the vast majority of 2K players probably don't care about.

[sirdez]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

I think part of the frustration is also that you can beat the CPU on the perimeter initially, but then they still manage to recover and affect your drive, or you get thrown into a slow animation. Which I think is a product of the game not having great help D.

[CX1329]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Two things I'm tired of:

1) No open court game. I struggle to score on the break because defenders can magically keep up with ball handlers with their feet planted. Thankfully, my philosophy is a blend of modern and old-school ball, so I don't rely on fast breaks and uptempo play, but I'd be out of luck if I did.

2) Even if they're beaten, defenders can instantly recover and teleport back into position like it's an X-Files episode. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to beat someone without getting sucked into that hip-riding animation except on those rare instances when I pull off an ankle breaker (you know you've done it when you hear that canned sound effect with the crowd going "ohh!!").


This is still an issue for us sim ballers yet the devs are too busy tweaking the shooting in order to let Park players shoot 80% from deep. I'm really enjoying 2K24, don't get me wrong, but the magnetic defenders are goofy. I want the tight perimeter D (which is actually very realistic) but without the magnetic wonkiness. Open up the open court game and don't let defenders warp back into position if they get beat.

[frank70]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Two things I'm tired of:

1) No open court game. I struggle to score on the break because defenders can magically keep up with ball handlers with their feet planted. Thankfully, my philosophy is a blend of modern and old-school ball, so I don't rely on fast breaks and uptempo play, but I'd be out of luck if I did.

2) Even if they're beaten, defenders can instantly recover and teleport back into position like it's an X-Files episode. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to beat someone without getting sucked into that hip-riding animation except on those rare instances when I pull off an ankle breaker (you know you've done it when you hear that canned sound effect with the crowd going "ohh!!").


This is still an issue for us sim ballers yet the devs are too busy tweaking the shooting in order to let Park players shoot 80% from deep. I'm really enjoying 2K24, don't get me wrong, but the magnetic defenders are goofy. I want the tight perimeter D (which is actually very realistic) but without the magnetic wonkiness. Open up the open court game and don't let defenders warp back into position if they get beat.

It is by design because the help defense logic is poor. Off-ball gaps often make no sense. They stick to non-shooters too much and the help is coming way too late- if it comes at all. Help the helper isn't in the game at all.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Some clips (custom slider All-Star base with 0 body up sensitivity 0 on-ball defense 0 lateral quickness) -- needless to say unnatural movements / warping will be more frequent on stock difficulties. The first clip I added just because it was the classic AI psychic reaction to my input. The Hunter clip shows body momentum for the defender not mattering. Murray not looking at the offensive player and then still shifting his body. Marcus Morris mediocre and slow footed defender playing up close and still able to react.

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I don't think the differing views on this are about game mode, roster, or sliders. I think it boils down to preferences. I can get to the paint often enough, and I have seen drives that look fluid, but the problem I have is how it's happening and the general mechanics.

I understand that people like the defense as-is and it probably works well for the online crowd, but I do think the existing sliders are not enough. I remember years ago tweeting to Mike Wang about a blow-by slider (at 0 it's 2k18 again, at 100 it's stonewall city). That'd be nice, along with an AI reaction time slider -- to really fine tune things on the defensive end.

Also the ability to globally set how all AI teams defend by default (if I want them to start off with moderate pressure, instead of smother), that'd be good too. But maybe that is asking too much for something that the vast majority of 2K players probably don't care about.

I worded it very diplomatically in my initial reply to the video you linked to, but maybe I should be more direct.

From that video, bro you are the online crowd.

The online crowd from a few years ago to be more specific (2k18 I think was when it was most prevalent?). That video was as if Ricky Bobby was on the sidelines as the coach telling him team to just go fast. You just tried to turbo your way to the rim.

2k saw the turbo spam and rightly decided that wasn't good basketball so took steps to eliminate it.

[VDusen04]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

I don't think the differing views on this are about game mode, roster, or sliders. I think it boils down to preferences. I can get to the paint often enough, and I have seen drives that look fluid, but the problem I have is how it's happening and the general mechanics.

This is what it's always been about in my least favorite 2Ks. If the question is, "Can you technically get into the paint and get to the rim in NBA 2K24?", my answer would be yes. I'm pretty sure I could take Isiah Thomas and spam my defender with dribble moves and setups until the defender skitters drastically in the wrong direction.

My issue is with how I can get past my defender, and under what circumstances. And in 2K24's case, it seems they've reduced or nerfed a number of real life offensive advantages that were previously more available in 2K23. In my experiences with 2K24, it often felt like they were trying to tell me, "If you want to be able to get to the rim, you better start mastering your right-stick isolation skills."

And to be fair, isolation dribbles/crosses/setups are a huge part of getting past a defender in real life. But offensive advantages are about so much more—triple threat jabs and first steps, using downhill momentum to blow past a stationary defender, spotting up in the corner so a defender has to collapse out of control and thus opening up a simple counter-blow-by. But so many of those options in 2K24 seem burdened with the insanely physical and reactive defenders who know how to keep perfect equi-distance from you at all times so they can get the best of both words (being fast enough to close out and contest at any given time while also being able to magically drop back to cut off any non-dribble stick drives).

If I dug deep enough, I'm pretty sure I could copy and paste very similar comments I made back around 2K19 or so. This isn't a new 2K problem, but it is one that seems to vacillate from year to year. It's like they lower the hard-coded body-up and physicality ranges one year for the sake of a free-flowing offensive feel then they overcompensate the next year by giving every perimeter defender Gary Payton's lateral speed and Anthony Mason's physicality.

[jeebs9]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Always giving that favor with Baron Davis

https://youtu.be/WKegV0TmRcE?si=bI-CDaxXPYJojCXM

Spoiler

There is also a rhythm to the above. If your notice I break it. If I would of pressed speed. I would of got a "failed boost". Not as nice boost. That's why I start over and get the correct boost. But at that point of the game. I had blown by him about 3 times already. So I mixed the step back to end the quarter

Especially on mismatches
Monta Ellis

https://youtu.be/BwVQk22aCrQ?si=MOK0Vwjs23aC1Vik

[topwater]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

I want to reiterate that I suggested default rosters, default sliders. If its something you haven't figured out yet then you need to start from baseline. Making wholesale roster edits and extreme slider changes right off the bat is not how you establish the baseline.

1. Default rookie, default rosters
2. Pick a player. Could be your favorite player or the one you think has the nicest bag.
3. Go into edit player but don't edit a single thing. Go to signature>>dribble and just watch. Look at each animation.
4. Go into freestyle practice and just do the moves you saw in #3. No turbo, no left stick.
5. Pick a move. Could be the one easiest to pull off or you think looks the nicest. Your choice. Do that move experimenting with different launch points with and without turbo. Repeat as many times necessary until you get the timing down for a seamless move.
6. Then combo it by doing a setup move first. The first move I got the feel was doing the shammgod with Francis. I would do an aggressive breakdown first, and about midway thru when the ball goes back to Francis' right hand I would fire off the shammgod and it looked like one continuous move.
7. Don't attack the basket at first. Just keep redoing the combo until you are comfortable with it, and only then do you finish with driving to the hoop.
8. Repeat as necessary.

There's other things you can do. I struggled with the snatchback at first. So I went into freestyle practice and picked a spot on the floor and said "this is the spot on the floor I want to end up at" and then did a drive followed by snatchback until I consistently ended up at that exact spot on the floor.

All this may sound basic, but if you struggled to reach a play set off point then it suggests you may want to start at the basic level. And for crying out loud stay off turbo. Get a feel for 2k's movement system because that post strongly suggests you don't have that feel right now and you are trying to compensate with extreme slider changes and that will never get you there.

I appreciate the response, but to be fair but by your words I'd literally have to use every player in every situation and learn every move. That's absolutely ridiculous. Also - nobody is doing that. I spend half my time in 2KU because I don't get to move in game so I go there and ohhhh and ahhhh at the stuff I wish I could do.

Yes, I made some changes, but they were to my advantage, and again, by that logic, slider changes would completely ruin the game. In fact what you're saying is that badge edits that give the offensive player an advantage are bad and make the defense absolutely ridiculously good. Attribute edits that give the offensive player an advantage are bad and make the defensive player prime Gary Payton on all the PED's. And slider changes that give the user a massive advantage are bad and make it so that defenders are psychic. If that were the case, I think slider edits and roster edits would be essentially useless and detrimental. How about when I was standing still receiving a pass and the defender warped to me at about 50 mph and literally knocked me from triple threat to dribbling? What could I have done there? I don't think there's really anything I could've done, honestly.

I'm not spamming turbo, and I am certainly not spamming turbo to move 5 feet. I do think that whomever came up with the brilliant idea that in an NBA basketball simulation running fast = instant mind reading defenders who defy the rules of physics is an absolute moron and should be fired though. NBA players go fast. A lot. They use speed advantages and use speed changes. Timing and momentum, direction changes and speed advantages are not present when I play. Nothing like what I've seen in the videos at least.

It's an overly physical iteration of basketball and defenders are way too good. Defend it all you want, but how it plays and feels is not representative of what I watch. That's just my experience, though. I see what you guys are saying, quite literally. It's just not an option for me and it's not roster edits or slider changes. Which is why I think it's some sort of bug. I see enough people online complain about what I'm experiencing to know it isn't just me. I also see enough of the opposite, which indicates there may be an issue aside from me just being terrible and spamming turbo.

[m29a]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Yeah, the intended use of custom sliders and rosters in these specific cases are to make the defenders worse -- if the defenders are still able to mostly perform the same, that just tells me how the defense is designed under the hood cannot be changed and customization has limited effect.

I don't think things get jumbled up. I think it's about different people having different opinions on what is/should be acceptable in this video game (that has claimed to simulate the real NBA, but the jury is out on that one).

In a few days, we could all tune in to watch the opening night NBA games -- yet I bet we'd all be seeing different things -- and have different interpretations.

[jeebs9]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

I am not one of those dribble gods. **** I learned dribbling last year. I just don't understand the argument going on here. One group is saying you can just do this and the other is saying no it doesn't work for me. Like what, wait a minute.

Most of the dribbling is simply reading your defenders feet. While also reading dribble rhythm. You don't need to dribble with everyone to get dribbling. It's simple right stick flicks in combo with left directions inputs.

[jeebs9]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Yeah, the intended use of custom sliders and rosters in these specific cases are to make the defenders worse -- if the defenders are still able to mostly perform the same, that just tells me how the defense is designed under the hood cannot be changed and customization has limited effect.

I don't think things get jumbled up. I think it's about different people having different opinions on what is/should be acceptable in this video game (that has claimed to simulate the real NBA, but the jury is out on that one).

In a few days, we could all tune in to watch the opening night NBA games -- yet I bet we'd all be seeing different things -- and have different interpretations.

Which I totally agree with you here. 2K is trying to make a skill gap. Which is tough. They also have taken into context pace of dribbling and body contact.

I guess I don't have anything else to add here. I'm sorry you guys feel this way.