Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

[VDusen04]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Always giving that favor with Baron Davis

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WKegV0TmRcE?si=SJd9t9puAO4AehOs" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Spoiler

There is also a rhythm to the above. If your notice I break it. If I would of pressed speed. I would of got a "failed boost". Not as nice boost. That's why I start over and get the correct boost. But at that point of the game. I had blown by him about 3 times already. So I mixed the step back to end the quarter

Ironically, I think that clip does a nice job of showcasing one of my chief complaints with 2K24's defense.

You rocked Luka really nicely with your setup dribble. So nicely, in fact, that his feet were stuck in cement and he was locked upright when you took advantage of that wide open avenue.



That's a wide open dunk for 2007 Baron Davis 10 out of 10 times.

Yet if you play your own clip through, upright, frozen, and leaning Luka was still able to somehow recover and close off that drive. It's not a pretty recovery, but it's one that 2K tends to identify as enough to induce a body up animation or strong contest.



I give you credit for your ability to step back and hit but the frustration for many of us comes from that initial logic. Your moves earned you an open lane with one of the fastest slashers of the 2000s generation, yet Luka Doncic can afford to freeze, standup, and misread while still being able to recover and cut off your drive.

Whenever 2K takes these unrealistic avenues to juice defenders, it always comes back to the same thing for me: it feels like they're asking me to play video games, not basketball. With total respect, your spoiler add on about accounting for failed boosts kind of just drives that point home for me.

If I shake Luka with prime Baron so hard that dude freezes upright, I wish to reap my reward, not have the game rubberband him back into position.

[jeebs9]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Ironically, I think that clip does a nice job of showcasing one of my cheif complaints with 2K24's defense.

You rocked Luka really nicely with your setup dribble. So nicely, in fact, that his feet were stuck in cement and he was locked upright when you took advantage of that wide open avenue.



That's a wide open dunk for 2007 Baron Davis 10 out of 10 times.

Yet if you play your own clip through, upright, frozen, and leaning Luka was still able to somehow recover and close off that drive. It's not a pretty recovery, but it's one that 2K tends to identify as enough to induce a body up animation or strong contest.



I give you credit for your ability to step back and hit but the frustration for many of us comes from that initial logic. Your moves earned you an open lane with one of the fastest slashers of the 2000s generation, yet Luka Doncic can afford to freeze, standup, and misread while still being able to recover and cut off your drive.

Whenever 2K takes these unrealistic avenues to juice defenders, it always comes back to the same thing for me: it feels like they're asking me to play video games, not basketball. With total respect, your spoiler add on about accounting for failed boosts kind of just drives that point home for me.

If I shake Luka with prime Baron so hard that dude freezes upright, I wish to reap my reward, not have the game rubberband him back into position.

I think someone mentioned this before (I don't remember who). But we had a huge problem a few years ago. Zigzag.... I mean it looked worse.

https://youtu.be/cTWN3dnk2X0?si=CiNIdtEajNx7nZ6X

This was littered all over the game. There were so many videos of this garbage. Yes for the offline people This sucks. I feel bad that there is this "cooking". But they didn't take the ability to get by a defender away. They just changed it.

One thing I've learned the last few weeks with dribbling is with certain players you need to stay away from making any contact with the defender. Weirdly enough Ellis has Bulldozer badge and Davis doesn't. But I find myself making more contact layups with Davis than I do with Ellis.

But I understand what you guys are saying. I just remember the days of having a really good defender be completely useless.


Edit: I guess what changes would you like to see?

I also remember when they brought the hip ride contact into the game. It completely destroyed the game. You couldn't do anything as a defender.

[bateman11]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

I’m playing with on ball defense at 0 right now. Pass speed at 0 and pass accuracy at 100. Couple of other changes as well. Its more enjoyable.

Gameplay seems much more fluid with these settings. Defense is all about positioning and anticipation which in my opinion is horribly portrayed in the games original state — Defense turns into a game of bumper cars very quickly and it results in a game that doesn’t reflect the nba or basketball at all. These tweaks have helped reduce this a bit and create more of a nba style flow on the offensive end


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[howardphillips214]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Start a mycareer or go coach mode. See the leagues best ballhandlers get blown up by Trae Young and Ja Morant when you're not controlling them.

[EccentricMeat]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

So I took some thoughtful advice from ggsimmonds and I deleted all custom rosters and sliders. Deleting the rosters hurt a bit because I did a lot of editing as far as sigs go, but I figured I'd do it because I kinda do subscribe to the theory that 2k can get kinda 'gummed up' for lack of better terms.


I edited the newest 2K roster and gave everyone at least silver blow-by, silver bulldozer, silver triple threat, silver physical handles and bronze speed boost. I then started fresh as can be on Rookie. The slider edits I did were lowering CPU on ball defense to 0, defensive awareness to 0, defensive consistency to 0, human body up sensitivity to 0, driving contact to 0 and interior contact to 0. First possession I had a PNR on the wing and the defender warped through the pick and slammed into me. I was immediately pretty PO'd. No big deal. It happens. Next possession my guy was coming off a pin down and his defender was actually a bit hung up on the screen, so I'm thinking easy money - take what I am given. As mentioned the defender was hung up a bit so he turned on the jets and as my guy was receiving the pass he bent space and time to, quite literally, smash into me forcing me to go from a triple threat to dribbling. I'm quite certain that's a foul in the NBA. Needless to say he rode my hip like a pair of tailor fit pants and I just passed it. Next possession I was on the blue play indicator and it moved, so I tried to move to the next spot to run the play and my defender smashed into me and forced me to pick up my dribble. This is on rookie, brand new everything.


I honestly am stumped. As I said before I can't imagine 24's videos. It's like we are playing different games, or versions of the game. My defenders, with massive slider disadvantages are psychic and (to be a bit dramatic) brutally physical. And if I do beat them somehow, they recover and warp 2-5 feet into me to force a contact animation and often times it's a foul on them, and somehow they end up in front of me.


The differences in the videos used as examples recently in this thread have me thinking it's possibly a game mode issue or maybe just weird luck of the draw roster thing because said differences are profound. They are literal polar opposites. Again - 24's video is quite literally an impossibility in my experience. I have zero pride and/or ego and can concede user error 99% of the time, but this ain't me. It's something I haven't figured out yet.


One thing I am noticing is that during these overly physical/warping interactions my blow-by badge is always triggered, yet it does nothing as I gain no ground and lose a charge (lol BS mini games - thanks 2K!!!!). Even if they were to kick in there has to be at least a few times where I legit beat a guy and don't have to have my defender draped on me smashing me all the way to the cup, much like 24's videos.

Not sure what to tell you if you’re being honest here. On Superstar with my slider edits (Body Up Sensitivity at 15, Speed/Accel/Strength at 45 for the CPU) I’m getting constant blow-bys. No roster edits, not setting all those sliders to 0. I have no clue how you’re supposedly getting warp-speed brick-walled off PnR, let alone a simple iso drive, on Rookie with all those over the top edits.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VDusen04]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Edit: I guess what changes would you like to see?

Personally, I've found that 2K23 had a much narrower "wall zone" for defenders, which I mentioned earlier as something I think Da Czar had confirmed upon 2K23's initial release. So I'd welcome the option to return to that, for starters.

Otherwise, I honestly believe these issues are indicative of a bigger struggle within the 2K development team. I'd assume the crazy body-ups and recoveries are there as compensation for their own system's inability to defend offensive players with more realistic strategies and movements. That being said, we had a game just last year that offered more freedom on that front so it'd be nice to be able to get back to something like that (or at least have the choice to get back to that if people prefer the default 2K24 approach).

Here's DaCzar upon the release of 2K23:

[2K23] was tuned for FUN. not simply difficulty. We don't have enough tools to make it difficult without the AI just straight cheesing you. I think you remember what that felt like and I know some of you hated that.

So for some of you the game just won't be difficult enough so you will need to make adjustments. That is the trade-off for now.

We have on ball defensive delay on the the AI. This gives them more human reaction times. This is not tuned overly tight. I could tighten that up and your lanes and drives would get much harder but that is not always fun getting stone-walled.

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...s-x-ps5-9.html

My guess is 2K continues to strive each year to find a happy medium between realism and difficulty. It seems like in some ways, they opted for difficulty in 2K24 by way of the "AI straight cheesing you" with less realistic delays in response and recovery.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

I appreciate the response, but to be fair but by your words I'd literally have to use every player in every situation and learn every move. That's absolutely ridiculous. Also - nobody is doing that. I spend half my time in 2KU because I don't get to move in game so I go there and ohhhh and ahhhh at the stuff I wish I could do.

Yes, I made some changes, but they were to my advantage, and again, by that logic, slider changes would completely ruin the game. In fact what you're saying is that badge edits that give the offensive player an advantage are bad and make the defense absolutely ridiculously good. Attribute edits that give the offensive player an advantage are bad and make the defensive player prime Gary Payton on all the PED's. And slider changes that give the user a massive advantage are bad and make it so that defenders are psychic. If that were the case, I think slider edits and roster edits would be essentially useless and detrimental. How about when I was standing still receiving a pass and the defender warped to me at about 50 mph and literally knocked me from triple threat to dribbling? What could I have done there? I don't think there's really anything I could've done, honestly.

I'm not spamming turbo, and I am certainly not spamming turbo to move 5 feet. I do think that whomever came up with the brilliant idea that in an NBA basketball simulation running fast = instant mind reading defenders who defy the rules of physics is an absolute moron and should be fired though. NBA players go fast. A lot. They use speed advantages and use speed changes. Timing and momentum, direction changes and speed advantages are not present when I play. Nothing like what I've seen in the videos at least.

It's an overly physical iteration of basketball and defenders are way too good. Defend it all you want, but how it plays and feels is not representative of what I watch. That's just my experience, though. I see what you guys are saying, quite literally. It's just not an option for me and it's not roster edits or slider changes. Which is why I think it's some sort of bug. I see enough people online complain about what I'm experiencing to know it isn't just me. I also see enough of the opposite, which indicates there may be an issue aside from me just being terrible and spamming turbo.

Just addressing the bolded, no you wouldn't. The idea is that you just use one player to get a feel for how 2k's physics engine works and how it expects to be played. Once that one player gets you there, it would apply universally.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

I also remember when they brought the hip ride contact into the game. It completely destroyed the game. You couldn't do anything as a defender.

That was 2K18…coming off 2K17, which is probably the ‘stickiest’ modern 2K of all, and amongst my least favorite, lol

There was a lot I liked about 2K18, but being able to essentially turbo into any defender with anyone and initiate a hip ride animation rendered learning the nuances of dribbling and movement useless….you essentially had to restrain yourself competitively vs. the CPU. I can definitely understand why some enjoy the ease of that system but I never want to see it return.

[sirdez]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Otherwise, I honestly believe these issues are indicative of a bigger struggle within the 2K development team. I'd assume the crazy body-ups and recoveries are there as compensation for their own system's inability to defend offensive players with more realistic strategies and movements. That being said, we had a game just last year that offered more freedom on that front so it'd be nice to be able to get back to something like that (or at least have the choice to get back to that if people prefer the default 2K24 approach).

I think poor help defense and rotations means perimeter defense itself needs to be more effective, and often the guy you beat on the perimeter has to then be the second layer of D as well (hence the supernatural recoveries).

[alabamarob]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

That was 2K18…coming off 2K17, which is probably the ‘stickiest’ modern 2K of all, and amongst my least favorite, lol

There was a lot I liked about 2K18, but being able to essentially turbo into any defender with anyone and initiate a hip ride animation rendered learning the nuances of dribbling and movement useless….you essentially had to restrain yourself competitively vs. the CPU. I can definitely understand why some enjoy the ease of that system but I never want to see it return.

I loved that 2k18 defense, and defender/ballhandler interaction. It was very realistic and second to 2k12 when it comes to realism imo.

You could definitely lock up you just had to give the offensive player space. If you get 2k18 defense with 2k12 live ball and charges then we would be in a good spot.

However, with a live ball 2k18 is probably to much.

I think the implementation of the live ball would alleviate the need ro have all this bumping. But, 2k gave us a live ball and most of the people cried about it. People didn't like having dribble the ball around and not thru a defender.

[m29a]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Theoretically if open 3s were less potent (allowing help defense to be aggressive) along with decreased dunk frequency -- then would 2K18 blow-bys still be viewed as problematic?

I think a huge reason why 2K help defense has consistently lacked is the inflated shot make % across the floor. Hard to design defense when open jumpers go in at far higher rates than they do in real life -- oh, and greens. In the real games, teams can help off of even decent shooters cause they're still likely to miss a fair number of open shots.

Edit: Also yes before 2k18, people were trained to think "locking up" an offensive player means playing super close and bumping. No, if you want to prevent the drive you need to back up and give some space to give yourself time to react BUT you will give up some jumpers by doing so because you can't (and shouldn't be able to) take away both. Sure some top tier defenders can do it but the vast majority of the league isn't that.

[The 24th Letter]

Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

I loved that 2k18 defense, and defender/ballhandler interaction. It was very realistic and second to 2k12 when it comes to realism imo.

You could definitely lock up you just had to give the offensive player space. If you get 2k18 defense with 2k12 live ball and charges then we would be in a good spot.

However, with a live ball 2k18 is probably to much.

I think the implementation of the live ball would alleviate the need ro have all this bumping. But, 2k gave us a live ball and most of the people cried about it. People didn't like having dribble the ball around and not thru a defender.

The problem was, and I believe there was a thread highlighting this……you could initiate a hip ride sequence with anyone from IT to Shaq…so if the driving player was good finisher, it was a wrap- regardless of help coming over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[howardphillips214]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

Oh man my 7' slasher C was a BEAST in 18. Lolol

Onball d was best in 20 and 22, IMO.

[jeebs9]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

The problem was, and I believe there was a thread highlighting this……you could initiate a hip ride sequence with anyone from IT to Shaq…so if the driving player was good finisher, it was a wrap- regardless of help coming over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Found a great video showcasing

https://youtu.be/DydVALvQ-Tw?si=Bf8RR7HVB1aBqVbE

That little jump back animation by the defender. That **** was canned as ****ed. Even if you didn't press anything (on defense). The offensive player (or ball handler) could trigger that animation.(at 1:13. He even triggers it twice in one possession). I stopped playing 18 after a while.

[alabamarob]

Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA3vBtXvTPE

You could avoid that hip ride animation if you keep space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjyw4hsYago