Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

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  • alabamarob
    MVP
    • Nov 2010
    • 3340

    #106
    Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

    Originally posted by hapa17
    this is pretty much what i'm talking about.



    murray drops down to double tatum in the post, brown cuts to the opposite wing, i pass him the ball, and murray closes out from the right block to left wing through traffic in time to easily contest brown's shot (into a stumble animation). this just doesn't seem realistic to me. am i crazy?
    I think the problem is the defensive slide speed vs sprint then gather and jump. The defender didn't even sprint over there. He shouldn't be able to slide over there in a defensive stance at that speed, and rhen explode into a contest.

    All closeout contests out of that stance should be weak or fouls if they jump into you.
    Last edited by alabamarob; 09-24-2023, 04:05 PM.
    Psn: Alabamarob
    Xbox: Alabama Rob

    Youtube: 2k Hawks

    Settings I play on.
    Minutes: 12
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    Comment

    • sirdez
      Pro
      • Aug 2020
      • 687

      #107
      Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

      Originally posted by EccentricMeat
      The main issue is that the CPU gets physical boosts at Superstar/HOF difficulty. Try decreasing the CPU Speed/Acceleration/Strength sliders by 5 and the game opens up quite a bit.
      This has helped a lot for me, as has changing my offensive focus to "get shooters open".

      Comment

      • sirdez
        Pro
        • Aug 2020
        • 687

        #108
        Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

        Originally posted by alabamarob
        I think the problem is the defensive slide speed vs sprint then gather and jump. The defender didn't even sprint over there. He shouldn't be able to slide over there in a defensive stance at that speed, and rhen explode into a contest.

        All closeout contests out of that stance should be weak or fouls if they jump into you.
        The other problem is catch animations are often laggy or take too long. So you can't get a quick shot up even if you want to.

        Comment

        • sirdez
          Pro
          • Aug 2020
          • 687

          #109
          Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

          So having played around a dozen games now on tweaked sliders (with Superstar base), a few thoughts:

          1) The CPU doesn't pick and choose when to play tight and when to back off; rather, they defend the ball carrier like they are prime MJ on every possession. It doesn't matter who it is or the game situation, they literally just hound dog you all game. Plus they usually pick up the ball carrier close to the halfway line.

          NBA teams don't do this because it's exhausting and also can put pressure on the other four guys if the first defender is too aggressive and gets beaten, which leads me to my second point...

          2) It is almost impossible to beat a CPU defender one on one. Because of how the CPU is coded to defend (in that they can read and mirror your controls), there is very little difference between poor and good perimeter defenders, because they can all react to your movements before you've even made them. This takes away the strategy of trying to isolate weaker defenders, or trying to get a switch so you have the CPI bigs guarding your PG.

          3) Body physics and momentum are just not correct for CPU defenders (tbf this was an issue in 2k23 as well so it's not just this year). They're not properly affected by momentum, so they can change direction very quickly to mirror your movements. The best example of this is when they close out on you from one side, so you move back the way the defender is coming from, but they can immediately stop and switch directions to go back. It's also evident when you drive and step back, and the defender is also able to match it.

          4) The CPU doesn't "allow" open shots at any point - they will always make a desperate attempt to close out on shooters. This just isn't reflective of real life, as once a shooter gets open and receives, often the defense won't manically close-out for two reasons; they risk fouling the shooter and they also have someone out of position for a rebound/break. This isn't replicated in 2k24 as the CPU never concedes a shot, no matter what the circumstance, meaning your shots always feel rushed.

          I think ultimately a lot of the above is because park/rec and MyNBA uses the same game engine, so they can't really implement CPU defense that is comparable to real life, as human players exploit it too much in those arcade-y modes. It's exhausting trying to play against it though.
          Last edited by sirdez; 09-25-2023, 04:01 AM.

          Comment

          • jahswill
            Rookie
            • Dec 2004
            • 625

            #110
            Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

            Originally posted by sirdez
            So having played around a dozen games now on tweaked sliders (with Superstar base), a few thoughts:

            1) The CPU doesn't pick and choose when to play tight and when to back off; rather, they defend the ball carrier like they are prime MJ on every possession. It doesn't matter who it is or the game situation, they literally just hound dog you all game. Plus they usually pick up the ball carrier close to the halfway line.

            NBA teams don't do this because it's exhausting and also can put pressure on the other four guys if the first defender is too aggressive and gets beaten, which leads me to my second point...

            2) It is almost impossible to beat a CPU defender one on one. Because of how the CPU is coded to defend (in that they can read and mirror your controls), there is very little difference between poor and good perimeter defenders, because they can all react to your movements before you've even made them. This takes away the strategy of trying to isolate weaker defenders, or trying to get a switch so you have the CPI bigs guarding your PG.

            3) Body physics and momentum are just not correct for CPU defenders (tbf this was an issue in 2k23 as well so it's not just this year). They're not properly affected by momentum, so they can change direction very quickly to mirror your movements. The best example of this is when they close out on you from one side, so you move back the way the defender is coming from, but they can immediately stop and switch directions to go back. It's also evident when you drive and step back, and the defender is also able to match it.

            4) The CPU doesn't "allow" open shots at any point - they will always make a desperate attempt to close out on shooters. This just isn't reflective of real life, as once a shooter gets open and receives, often the defense won't manically close-out for two reasons; they risk fouling the shooter and they also have someone out of position for a rebound/break. This isn't replicated in 2k24 as the CPU never concedes a shot, no matter what the circumstance, meaning your shots always feel rushed.

            I think ultimately a lot of the above is because park/rec and MyNBA uses the same game engine, so they can't really implement CPU defense that is comparable to real life, as human players exploit it too much in those arcade-y modes. It's exhausting trying to play against it though.
            I've been saying for years, that 2K needs a real physics engine. In my opinion, that would remedy a lot of these unrealistic movements!
            JahsWill

            Comment

            • topwater
              Rookie
              • Jan 2023
              • 180

              #111
              Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

              Originally posted by sirdez
              So having played around a dozen games now on tweaked sliders (with Superstar base), a few thoughts:

              1) The CPU doesn't pick and choose when to play tight and when to back off; rather, they defend the ball carrier like they are prime MJ on every possession. It doesn't matter who it is or the game situation, they literally just hound dog you all game. Plus they usually pick up the ball carrier close to the halfway line.

              NBA teams don't do this because it's exhausting and also can put pressure on the other four guys if the first defender is too aggressive and gets beaten, which leads me to my second point...

              2) It is almost impossible to beat a CPU defender one on one. Because of how the CPU is coded to defend (in that they can read and mirror your controls), there is very little difference between poor and good perimeter defenders, because they can all react to your movements before you've even made them. This takes away the strategy of trying to isolate weaker defenders, or trying to get a switch so you have the CPI bigs guarding your PG.

              3) Body physics and momentum are just not correct for CPU defenders (tbf this was an issue in 2k23 as well so it's not just this year). They're not properly affected by momentum, so they can change direction very quickly to mirror your movements. The best example of this is when they close out on you from one side, so you move back the way the defender is coming from, but they can immediately stop and switch directions to go back. It's also evident when you drive and step back, and the defender is also able to match it.

              4) The CPU doesn't "allow" open shots at any point - they will always make a desperate attempt to close out on shooters. This just isn't reflective of real life, as once a shooter gets open and receives, often the defense won't manically close-out for two reasons; they risk fouling the shooter and they also have someone out of position for a rebound/break. This isn't replicated in 2k24 as the CPU never concedes a shot, no matter what the circumstance, meaning your shots always feel rushed.

              I think ultimately a lot of the above is because park/rec and MyNBA uses the same game engine, so they can't really implement CPU defense that is comparable to real life, as human players exploit it too much in those arcade-y modes. It's exhausting trying to play against it though.

              Agreed. Been thinking/seeing it for years. It's unfortunate, but it's what we have. I'm of the mind that the only fix would be a new engine, or an entirely new approach to how they code defense putting less emphasis on physics-defying, psychic individual interactions and more into good rotations and team defense. With Pro Play in the mix now I don't think a new engine is an option for years to come.

              Comment

              • sirdez
                Pro
                • Aug 2020
                • 687

                #112
                Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                Originally posted by sirdez
                3) Body physics and momentum are just not correct for CPU defenders (tbf this was an issue in 2k23 as well so it's not just this year). They're not properly affected by momentum, so they can change direction very quickly to mirror your movements. The best example of this is when they close out on you from one side, so you move back the way the defender is coming from, but they can immediately stop and switch directions to go back.
                Just managed to get a great example of this on replay:



                Reddish moves to the corner, catching Ingram flat-footed and forcing him to sprint to close out. He then catches the ball, waits for Ingram to arrive and then moves back the other way.

                This should result on Ingram flying past him and Reddish having a clear lane to the basket/an open shot. Instead, Ingram is able to stop and change direction instantly, and to add to that, Reddish is then sucked back into him.

                I get why it is like this but it is really unrealistic and cheesy. It's such a common basketball play to use your opponent's momentum against them on a close out and the mechanics just don't allow it. It also means the CPU isn't punished by its own slow/late rotations.
                Last edited by sirdez; 09-26-2023, 02:03 AM.

                Comment

                • hapa17
                  Rookie
                  • Mar 2004
                  • 380

                  #113
                  Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                  Originally posted by EccentricMeat
                  Nothing wrong with the defense there. It just took you too long to shoot. You caught the ball and stopped for a second, you need to immediately put the shot up.

                  What difficulty are you on? I’ve said before that higher difficulties give the CPU a boost, so you can lower their Speed/Accel/Strength sliders by 5-ish to make things more even and make them not close out so fast. You can also decrease the Jump Shot Defense Strength (Gather) slider for the USER, which will make their close outs less aggressive and immediate (though I’d honestly leave that alone as you want competent close outs IMO).
                  Originally posted by alabamarob
                  I think the problem is the defensive slide speed vs sprint then gather and jump. The defender didn't even sprint over there. He shouldn't be able to slide over there in a defensive stance at that speed, and rhen explode into a contest.

                  All closeout contests out of that stance should be weak or fouls if they jump into you.
                  Originally posted by sirdez
                  The other problem is catch animations are often laggy or take too long. So you can't get a quick shot up even if you want to.
                  Originally posted by sirdez
                  Just managed to get a great example of this on replay:



                  Reddish moves to the corner, catching Ingram flat-footed and forcing him to sprint to close out. He then catches the ball, waits for Ingram to arrive and then moves back the other way.

                  This should result on Ingram flying past him and Reddish having a clear lane to the basket/an open shot. Instead, Ingram is able to stop and change direction instantly, and to add to that, Reddish is then sucked back into him.

                  I get why it is like this but it is really unrealistic and cheesy. It's such a common basketball play to use your opponent's momentum against them on a close out and the mechanics just don't allow it. It also means the CPU isn't punished by its own slow/late rotations.
                  100%!

                  all due respect to EccentricMeat, but i just don't feel like a close-out from right block to left wing that fast is possible IRL. maybe an all-out sprint and flying contest, but in my clip, it's kind of a light trot/warp into a smothering contest. the split-second pause is my standard routine to get my feet set, otherwise the release gets all funky bc it's a moving shot or some 💩.

                  i feel like sirdez's clip illustrates the same thing. the time it takes a pass to be thrown should be a fraction of the time it takes for a defender to look, read, react, and move. and the only way someone would have a prayer on a contest that quick would be a full sell-out, not a casual walk-up into a full shutdown of the move.

                  i actually went ahead and downgraded my difficulty level from superstar to allstar last week bc SS contests were just dumb. i've been able to manage more open looks on jumpers, but i also struggle to pressure the CPU on my closeouts. i run at them with left-stick up or even a full block shot attempt and sometimes only manage a 9% contest if i'm lucky. 💩 is ridiculous.
                  OG
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                  • sirdez
                    Pro
                    • Aug 2020
                    • 687

                    #114
                    Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                    Here's Daniel Gafford defending Christian Koloko like he's Steph all the way to the half way line.

                    Comment

                    • muddiestduck
                      Rookie
                      • Jun 2015
                      • 141

                      #115
                      Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                      Maybe this is the wrong thread - but is there a "work around" for the cpu contesting nearly every fastbreak attempt?

                      I've encountered many instances. But last night I had Ty Lawson on a break away. Cp3 1-2 steps behind me. My layup gets contested. A "2 man animation" if you can imagine that. Its like i lose any forward momentum. (Sorry I don't have the clips)

                      Similar scenario but reversed. Lawson behind cp3. I'm trying to crowd him but I'm a step behind. Cp3 gets an uncontested layup while Lawson just jumps straight up.

                      It happens alot. I feel like I have a step or 2 but cpu either covers the ground to contest or I lose momentum and get caught in a contest.

                      Not a deal breaker by any means but an immersion breaker. In the scenarios I'm talking about you see players concede a layup - live to play another possession. But instead I'm getting bodied at the rim. Almost as if my player loses speed for a half second so the cpu can catch up.

                      Played the game on SS base with some custom Sliders- utilizing the lowering of cpu physical traits by 5. (Lateral quickness, strength, etc)

                      Sent from my SM-G990U using Operation Sports mobile app

                      Comment

                      • milin
                        Rookie
                        • Jun 2003
                        • 106

                        #116
                        Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                        All things mentioned here have happened since forever. I know because I have been complaining about them for years. Like someone mentioned, they code this because you can exploit a lot of things online otherwise. It's bad coding though, because it's like a catchup bug.

                        What infuriates me more is that years ago sport games were trying to be more realistic, with better physics, foot planting, momentum, but all that changed when companies started focusing on the online game. Most people that play online don't care about any of that. It's not only 2K. Look at FIFA. I still play FIFA '16 and it's worlds apart to current and other recent FIFA games in terms of realism.

                        *EDIT* Wrote "offline" instead of "online"
                        Last edited by milin; 09-26-2023, 03:04 PM. Reason: meant online instead of offline

                        Comment

                        • hapa17
                          Rookie
                          • Mar 2004
                          • 380

                          #117
                          Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                          Originally posted by milin
                          All things mentioned here have happened since forever. I know because I have been complaining about them for years. Like someone mentioned, they code this because you can exploit a lot of things offline otherwise. It's bad coding though, because it's like a catchup bug.

                          What infuriates me more is that years ago sport games were trying to be more realistic, with better physics, foot planting, momentum, but all that changed when companies started focusing on the online game. Most people that play online don't care about any of that. It's not only 2K. Look at FIFA. I still play FIFA '16 and it's worlds apart to current and other recent FIFA games in terms of realism.
                          100% right, OG.

                          my struggle over years and years of playing these games is that i start to question whether it's just my lack of skill. but when you start to look at these warping a$$ physics or needing to be a master ankle-breaker on the sticks, it seems clear that the game is flawed more than i am.

                          of course the randomness of the game can also drive me crazy. i played a game last night on allstar, game 6 of the first round playoff series between the celtics and hawks in atlanta, hawks up on me 3-2, and i totally throttle them. i shut down dejonte, which has been almost impossible every other game. it'd been a few days since i played, so was something patched? is it that i should play above allstar? is it the randomness of the game? who knows?! it's enough to drive you up the wall.
                          OG
                          • Atari Basketball
                          • Double Dribble
                          • Dr. J Vs. Bird
                          • Lakers Vs. Celtics and the NBA Playoffs
                          • Jordan Vs. Bird
                          • NBA Jam
                          • SNES NCAA Basketball
                          • Tecmo NBA Basketball
                          • NBA Live 95
                          • NBA 2k2 to infinity

                          Comment

                          • alabamarob
                            MVP
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 3340

                            #118
                            Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                            Originally posted by sirdez
                            Here's Daniel Gafford defending Christian Koloko like he's Steph all the way to the half way line.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbXwvhklmUY

                            Even the cpu is working it. Played the cpu knicks and Jazz and watched Mitchell Robinson and Walker Kessler stand out past the 3 to space the floor.

                            The game has to add an off ball option for bigs to ignore non shooters and protect the paint.
                            Psn: Alabamarob
                            Xbox: Alabama Rob

                            Youtube: 2k Hawks

                            Settings I play on.
                            Minutes: 12
                            Difficulty: HOF
                            Online or Offline player: Both
                            In a MLO: Yes

                            Comment

                            • ggsimmonds
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 11235

                              #119
                              Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                              Originally posted by sirdez
                              Here's Daniel Gafford defending Christian Koloko like he's Steph all the way to the half way line.

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbXwvhklmUY
                              Thank you for this!!

                              I was somewhat unsure about what exactly everyone was seeing because in 2k terminology, smothering means that "intense D" where the defender gets right on the body of the ball handler and I have not been seeing that. I thought the thread was complaining about the AI defenders guarding everyone tight.

                              This video clears it up a lot. Now I know my complaints are the same as others. Sadly this has been a problem...forever I think

                              Comment

                              • VDusen04
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Aug 2003
                                • 13028

                                #120
                                Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                                Originally posted by sirdez
                                Just managed to get a great example of this on replay:

                                <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jufLEb4Bv38?si=--ov0NMJ-9Vl7sDp" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

                                Reddish moves to the corner, catching Ingram flat-footed and forcing him to sprint to close out. He then catches the ball, waits for Ingram to arrive and then moves back the other way.

                                This should result on Ingram flying past him and Reddish having a clear lane to the basket/an open shot. Instead, Ingram is able to stop and change direction instantly, and to add to that, Reddish is then sucked back into him.

                                I get why it is like this but it is really unrealistic and cheesy. It's such a common basketball play to use your opponent's momentum against them on a close out and the mechanics just don't allow it. It also means the CPU isn't punished by its own slow/late rotations.
                                That right there is the single most frustrating aspect of NBA 2K. I haven't played 2K24 a whole lot outside of the Kobe mode but I hope I'm able to mitigate things like that with sliders. Elsewise, big yikes.

                                The thing is, in the video you posted, the drift to the corner to get the defender running out off-balance is a savvy and strategic basketball decision that works reliably in real life. Eliminating or minimizing momentum/first step advantages means reverting to an over-reliance of one-on-one dribble stick moves.

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