Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

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  • alabamarob
    MVP
    • Nov 2010
    • 3340

    #121
    Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

    Originally posted by VDusen04
    That right there is the single most frustrating aspect of NBA 2K. I haven't played 2K24 a whole lot outside of the Kobe mode but I hope I'm able to mitigate things like that with sliders. Elsewise, big yikes.

    The thing is, in the video you posted, the drift to the corner to get the defender running out off-balance is a savvy and strategic basketball decision that works reliably in real life. Eliminating or minimizing momentum/first step advantages means reverting to an over-reliance of one-on-one dribble stick moves.
    Every blue moon you can get around those speed closeouts by going wide, but the angles you have to take are crazy. Those 2 man riding/blocking animations are one of the 3 biggest problems with the game. 2) lack of pass deflections and steals. 3) rebounding variety.
    Psn: Alabamarob
    Xbox: Alabama Rob

    Youtube: 2k Hawks

    Settings I play on.
    Minutes: 12
    Difficulty: HOF
    Online or Offline player: Both
    In a MLO: Yes

    Comment

    • STLRams
      MVP
      • Aug 2005
      • 2847

      #122
      Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

      After playing for a few more weeks and playing around with the sliders I am seeing more fastbreaks, but it is still rare to see someone get beat off the dribble no matter who the defender and ball handler is. This really affects the drive and kick game in a negative way. The cpu defense sticks to the ball handler like glue, you hardly see any blow by's.

      Comment

      • topwater
        Rookie
        • Jan 2023
        • 180

        #123
        Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

        Originally posted by sirdez
        Just managed to get a great example of this on replay:



        Reddish moves to the corner, catching Ingram flat-footed and forcing him to sprint to close out. He then catches the ball, waits for Ingram to arrive and then moves back the other way.

        This should result on Ingram flying past him and Reddish having a clear lane to the basket/an open shot. Instead, Ingram is able to stop and change direction instantly, and to add to that, Reddish is then sucked back into him.

        I get why it is like this but it is really unrealistic and cheesy. It's such a common basketball play to use your opponent's momentum against them on a close out and the mechanics just don't allow it. It also means the CPU isn't punished by its own slow/late rotations.

        Absolute immersion killer for me. I had two very similar things happen to me today also and I just shut it off. Aside from defense like this (which is literally impossible) I think a part of the issue is just how players move and locomote all together. It's so sporadic and violent for lack of better terms. Then, when you want to be precise, quick and aggressive it's like I'm in mud with boots on, only to all of a sudden be on ice in socks. Rough year in my opinion. Not to say these haven't been issues in the past, as I absolutely know they have, but maybe I'm just expecting more.


        I've resorted to a full slider deep dive and roster tweak. Badges are a part of the problem and I'm seeing some much better stuff removing/downgrading them. Sliders are a lot tougher to get right...

        Comment

        • sirdez
          Pro
          • Aug 2020
          • 687

          #124
          Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

          Originally posted by ggsimmonds
          Thank you for this!!

          I was somewhat unsure about what exactly everyone was seeing because in 2k terminology, smothering means that "intense D" where the defender gets right on the body of the ball handler and I have not been seeing that. I thought the thread was complaining about the AI defenders guarding everyone tight.

          This video clears it up a lot. Now I know my complaints are the same as others. Sadly this has been a problem...forever I think
          I still think there are two issues with how CPU perimeter defense is implemented:

          1) There is too much smothering going on at the perimeter, where the CPU defender literally locks on really tightly and you have no space to do anything

          2) The CPU basically guards every player right up to the halfway line, regardless of threat (eg - Gafford defending Koloko)

          With regards to point 1, this should still happen from time to time, but there is a risk involved in that if you defend too tightly against a fast player who can dribble, there is always the chance he'll get past you (hence why defenders will often step back slightly to cut off more angles). That risk isn't there because the CPU can lock itself on and mirror your movements.

          Secondly, there isn't enough variance between good and poor perimeter defenders. I'm playing the Wizards currently and Poole is locked onto my SG and I can barely move a metre either way - he's a notoriously poor defender and I should be able to exploit this, but I can't because he's basically locked on and bumping me all around the perimeter like a pitbull.

          The net result of the above issues is there just isn't enough space to operate off the dribble. In real life perimeter defenders need to make a risk/reward choice between denying the ball-handler space but leaving themselves more open to getting blown by, or stepping back to cut off angles but giving more space to pass or shoot. The CPU however gets the best of both worlds.
          Last edited by sirdez; 09-26-2023, 07:44 PM.

          Comment

          • rudyjuly2
            Cade Cunningham
            • Aug 2002
            • 14815

            #125
            Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

            Originally posted by STLRams
            After playing for a few more weeks and playing around with the sliders I am seeing more fastbreaks, but it is still rare to see someone get beat off the dribble no matter who the defender and ball handler is. This really affects the drive and kick game in a negative way. The cpu defense sticks to the ball handler like glue, you hardly see any blow by's.
            I do think sliders fix this for offline guys like me. Really dropping body up sensitivity will give you blow byes and open up the drive and kick game . On All-Star I also had to boost def awareness and help but level/sliders do work.

            Comment

            • ggsimmonds
              Hall Of Fame
              • Jan 2009
              • 11235

              #126
              Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

              Originally posted by sirdez
              I still think there are two issues with how CPU perimeter defense is implemented:

              1) There is too much smothering going on at the perimeter, where the CPU defender literally locks on really tightly and you have no space to do anything

              2) The CPU basically guards every player right up to the halfway line, regardless of threat (eg - Gafford defending Koloko)

              With regards to point 1, this should still happen from time to time, but there is a risk involved in that if you defend too tightly against a fast player who can dribble, there is always the chance he'll get past you (hence why defenders will often step back slightly to cut off more angles). That risk isn't there because the CPU can lock itself on and mirror your movements.

              Secondly, there isn't enough variance between good and poor perimeter defenders. I'm playing the Wizards currently and Poole is locked onto my SG and I can barely move a metre either way - he's a notoriously poor defender and I should be able to exploit this, but I can't because he's basically locked on and bumping me all around the perimeter like a pitbull.

              The net result of the above issues is there just isn't enough space to operate off the dribble. In real life perimeter defenders need to make a risk/reward choice between denying the ball-handler space but leaving themselves more open to getting blown by, or stepping back to cut off angles but giving more space to pass or shoot. The CPU however gets the best of both worlds.
              I don't see issue number 1. I play Kobe era Wizards and traded for Steve Francis and the AI generally gives him space, whereas they are more likely to smother Larry Hughes. I can typically immediately notice the difference between a poor defender and a good one and exploit mismatches with Francis. Tomorrow I'll try to record some footage. The AI does usually tighten up on everyone in triple threat situations though.

              Issue 2 is my big problem but it mostly leads to an opposite extreme of too many easy layups/dunks when Francis does beat his man off the dribble because the help is slow to arrive due to guarding non-shooters too closely offball.

              Comment

              • VDusen04
                Hall Of Fame
                • Aug 2003
                • 13028

                #127
                Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                Originally posted by rudyjuly2
                I do think sliders fix this for offline guys like me. Really dropping body up sensitivity will give you blow byes and open up the drive and kick game . On All-Star I also had to boost def awareness and help but level/sliders do work.
                Glad to hear this.

                Comment

                • bigmike0077
                  Rookie
                  • Dec 2013
                  • 401

                  #128
                  Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                  Originally posted by sirdez
                  I still think there are two issues with how CPU perimeter defense is implemented:

                  1) There is too much smothering going on at the perimeter, where the CPU defender literally locks on really tightly and you have no space to do anything

                  2) The CPU basically guards every player right up to the halfway line, regardless of threat (eg - Gafford defending Koloko)

                  With regards to point 1, this should still happen from time to time, but there is a risk involved in that if you defend too tightly against a fast player who can dribble, there is always the chance he'll get past you (hence why defenders will often step back slightly to cut off more angles). That risk isn't there because the CPU can lock itself on and mirror your movements.

                  Secondly, there isn't enough variance between good and poor perimeter defenders. I'm playing the Wizards currently and Poole is locked onto my SG and I can barely move a metre either way - he's a notoriously poor defender and I should be able to exploit this, but I can't because he's basically locked on and bumping me all around the perimeter like a pitbull.

                  The net result of the above issues is there just isn't enough space to operate off the dribble. In real life perimeter defenders need to make a risk/reward choice between denying the ball-handler space but leaving themselves more open to getting blown by, or stepping back to cut off angles but giving more space to pass or shoot. The CPU however gets the best of both worlds.
                  Yes i am seeing this aswell

                  How do we get this to the Devs attention, because as i keep saying- at least on my end it wasn't like this at launch, this all happened post Patch 1( or 2).

                  Ill have a quick guard- for example Fox, and although hes fast, its like the CPU was moving even quicker. Yes can get to the rim sometimes, even off pick and rolls, but even in that situation, it feels so unnatural like the defense is just stuck to me, even with defenders that cant really keep up with Fox in real life.

                  Even with Fast breaks, for some reason ill have a steal/open lane and the CPU magically becomes faster than me and then smothers me. An open layup turns into a contested shot or foul. It feels really un natural.

                  I remember in 2k19( my favorite 2k) if i have a steal and a quick guard, easily can go coast to coast. But if i had a slower player, i would have to get creative on the fast break. Now it just seems like its impossible, definitely not smooth

                  Comment

                  • VDusen04
                    Hall Of Fame
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 13028

                    #129
                    Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                    Originally posted by bigmike0077
                    Ill have a quick guard- for example Fox, and although hes fast, its like the CPU was moving even quicker. Yes can get to the rim sometimes, even off pick and rolls, but even in that situation, it feels so unnatural like the defense is just stuck to me, even with defenders that cant really keep up with Fox in real life.

                    Even with Fast breaks, for some reason ill have a steal/open lane and the CPU magically becomes faster than me and then smothers me. An open layup turns into a contested shot or foul. It feels really un natural.
                    This has been an ongoing issue with 2K for close to a decade now, varying in function from year to year.

                    I can't recall the year but I remember an edition of 2K in the teens that had a blow-by animation mechanic that many folks complained about because the help defense wasn't effective enough to counter it. I personally loved it because I felt like my quick ball-handler could succeed at a clip that felt realistic and natural compared to real life basketball.

                    2K responded to those blow-by complaints by upping the mirroring and lightning fast recovery in the next edition. And just like that, realistic on-ball advantages went right out the window for a year.

                    With sliders, I was able to get most of the blow-bys I wanted in 2K23. It was still imperfect (first steps out of triple-threat still don't feel particularly effective) but broadly speaking, it worked well enough. I'm hoping I can get to that same place in 2K24.

                    Comment

                    • ggsimmonds
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 11235

                      #130
                      Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                      Two plays that summarize what I see in 2k24

                      Negative first:
                      <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TAdppIjy4Y4?si=MBKqmsCHEggS16nd" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

                      At first glance it looks like a good drive and kick off the PnR game. Defender gives Francis space on the perimeter, Francis attacks off the screen when Alvin goes above, and when Mo Pete comes to help I hit Jordan for the corner 3. BUT, check me trying to space the floor with my center Brendan Haywood who is 0-4 from 3 for HIS ENTIRE CAREER and the defending center offers no help on the drive because Steve Francis attacking the rim is fine but what we cannot allow is for Haywood to heat up from outside.

                      Another example:
                      <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eiC8t3EC_io?si=SaXs4Mc8f9o6Vroz" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

                      We clear out to let Francis and Laetner play the two man game and the defense commits to stopping the drive leaving Christian open for an easy 2. Same problem as above is still present, my center is chilling out on the 3 point line and his defender doesn't help. The Raptors center should have pre-rotated on the screen to make it a 3 on 2 play rather than a 2 on 2. But you'll notice how the defense is playing Steve here. Giving him plenty of space and going under the screen to cut off his drive while allowing the pull up J if I want it (I never do).

                      Those two plays are representative of the typical experience I am having.

                      Bonus play:
                      <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/epYRsBSnevM?si=Xt5rLNYWnZVpXYjr" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>
                      Nothing special, I just like it. The help was a little slow in reacting, the defending center probably should've reacted as soon as Steve turned the jets on, but the help was enough to force the miss and since the defense collapsed on Steve instead of boxing out it allow Kwame to clean it up. Trips like this make for a great experience.

                      Comment

                      • Eddie1967
                        Against The Crowd!
                        • Aug 2005
                        • 2405

                        #131
                        Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                        Originally posted by VDusen04
                        This has been an ongoing issue with 2K for close to a decade now, varying in function from year to year.

                        I can't recall the year but I remember an edition of 2K in the teens that had a blow-by animation mechanic that many folks complained about because the help defense wasn't effective enough to counter it. I personally loved it because I felt like my quick ball-handler could succeed at a clip that felt realistic and natural compared to real life basketball.

                        2K responded to those blow-by complaints by upping the mirroring and lightning fast recovery in the next edition. And just like that, realistic on-ball advantages went right out the window for a year.

                        With sliders, I was able to get most of the blow-bys I wanted in 2K23. It was still imperfect (first steps out of triple-threat still don't feel particularly effective) but broadly speaking, it worked well enough. I'm hoping I can get to that same place in 2K24.

                        I think it was Eccentric who said to lower the User body up sensitivity down to 25 or lower. That has fixed the lack of blow bys for me. A much better game now and its not ridiculous either. Good defenders still play well but if there is a mismatch a faster player will have an advantage from time to time.
                        Originally posted by jim416
                        You are the 2k Police. :)

                        Comment

                        • Smirkin Dirk
                          All Star
                          • Oct 2008
                          • 5178

                          #132
                          Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                          Does anyone remember a few years ago when the CPU defense would recognise non shooters and hang off.

                          I remember OG putting out a video about it. I also remember the CPU going under on screens when I handled with Simmons.

                          It's an area that needs attention.
                          2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

                          Comment

                          • simbayless
                            MVP
                            • May 2011
                            • 2040

                            #133
                            Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                            Originally posted by Smirkin Dirk
                            Does anyone remember a few years ago when the CPU defense would recognise non shooters and hang off.

                            I remember OG putting out a video about it. I also remember the CPU going under on screens when I handled with Simmons.

                            It's an area that needs attention.
                            2k are some A-holes for that LOL

                            It's still in there play with Westbrook or The Freak
                            And the CPU will start sagging every possession
                            Last edited by simbayless; 09-29-2023, 07:26 AM.

                            Comment

                            • simbayless
                              MVP
                              • May 2011
                              • 2040

                              #134
                              Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                              Originally posted by Eddie1967
                              I think it was Eccentric who said to lower the User body up sensitivity down to 25 or lower. That has fixed the lack of blow bys for me. A much better game now and its not ridiculous either. Good defenders still play well but if there is a mismatch a faster player will have an advantage from time to time.

                              2k should do it how the Choops devs use to do it by taking the the most popular sliders from the community and make them global Default sliders

                              Comment

                              • Douevenbench913
                                Banned
                                • Jul 2023
                                • 87

                                #135
                                Re: Perimeter Defense Seems Way Too Tight - Smothering

                                Play basketball not video games…from czar a few years ago.

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