2023 Offseason Thread

[Majingir]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

From the outside looking in yall trading for Poeltl never made sense with the record at the time. So he is a FA this year?

It never made sense. The hope was that they'd trade for him and since he played here before and liked playing here, they'd be able to keep him beyond the season.

They absolutely should keep him even if they only gave up a 2nd for him. He's their only good C.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

I can’t lie…a part of me feels like he’s been getting gassed up because of who he plays for and because he’s white, lol. Because we’ve seen other guys like him have postseasons like this and never get gassed up like this.

First part is probably a given, but I actually don't think we have tons of guys play like that in deep playoff runs and then question if they are worth 20-25mm a year. Maybe guys who play a round or two and get bounced. He reminds me the most of a guy like Tony Parker/Manu with Pop. Not in play-style but just his approach and how he's embraced that sorta leadership style role despite it clearly being someone else's team really early in his career. His confidence and ability to manipulate the game in the half-court playing off the best player or with the ball in his hands. He's the prime example of why getting highly skilled guys who played 4 years in college can pay off with huge results if you get the fit right.

I mean he played as well or better than MPJ in any of his playoff runs and he's a 180mm guy. Actual production isn't far from a guy like Klay when he moved to 3rd behind KD&Steph.. I'm not saying he's as good as those guys or has that potential, but if they are assuming he's still getting better and he's giving you "3rd star" level value you'd be crazy to not think he could be a 20-25mm guy. I mean we're talking Terry Rozier, Malcolm Brogdon money, not a 40m max superstar money.

To go from random, undrafted guy to $100 Mil man(EYE know he’s not getting it but the fact that it’s even out there is wild)in the span of a year? He was good but idk about being *this* good, but that’s also off my very limited amount of time watching him(2 months)this season.

In his defense here, he was only undrafted because he told teams not to draft him. His two-way deal with LAL was in place before the draft, and they told every team in the 2nd round to not draft him unless they were throwing guaranteed money at him. Regardless of what we all thought, I think he knew this was his path to the most money since he wasn't going in the lottery. I think he fully expected to be in this exact situation, it seems his confidence in his role was there from day 1. He picked the best fit, and obviously had just watched Caruso do the same and fast-track his way to more money than most guys in his draft too.

And IDK that he was that random either. Maybe before his senior year. But he was first team Big-12, 2nd in the conference in scoring, 4th in assists, 12th in rebounds. He had 27 on Gonzaga in their loss in the NCAA tournament, and even thought it was only two games ended up averaging 25ppg in the NCAA tournament. Before that, yeah he was random. Had shoulder surgery and transferred from Wichita State to Oklahoma. But once he got there it was lottery-level production.

And the growth has been real. His whole life the ball has been in his hands. Even at Oklahoma. He ran the show. The biggest question mark was his ability to shoot as a catch and shoot guy. It wasn't a strength of his even though it's the token white guy skill and that was his biggest question mark because elite athleticism was obviously off the table. And he was a fairly average shooter from deep even in college. He already jumped from 31% from three as a rookie to 40% last year. 44% in the playoffs, 45% over the last 3 months of the season.

He’ll stay in LA, but I just see a souped up Caruso or even a low budget Jordan Poole. Which is perfect for that current Laker roster situation

I actually hate the Caruso comparison because it's just the lazy "white guy on the Lakers" take. They play nothing alike. No disrespect to Caruso but he's more so the pesky defender type, glue guy, he's athletic, he's more physical, he's your typical 3&D role player. And that works for him, makes him one of the best defenders in the league. But he's more so in that Marcus Smart type of mold.

Reaves is and always has been a shot-creator who has combo-guard/point-forward skills as a ball handler and play-maker who finishes well at the rim/FT line. Since then he's added the outside shot, and is probably a slightly better defender than everyone expected him to be. Obviously he's a much more watered down version but he's got the Luka/Harden/CP3 type of half-court manipulation into getting his own shot and into the middle of the lane. A less shifty Manu type of player who picks floaters and pull-ups rather than euro-steps.

He's not going to explode for 40 in games like Poole, but I feel like he does almost everything else better and just simply plays smarter. Poole is probably another good example of a guy where nobody batted an eye when he signed for 140mm coming off a similarly efficient 17ppg playoff run like Reaves, while Reaves is bigger, a better passer, and takes far less "hero shots" and stays within their offense. And obviously vastly outplayed Poole in this years matchup too.

Poole is far more explosive. He might go average 25+ a game this year. But there is also value in being able to be a really reliable 3rd/4th guy. I wouldn't be shocked at 18-20 or so a game next year from Reaves if his role stays, and even though he probably peaks as a solid starter or good 6th man in the league I still get those Manu, Draymond, type of impact vibes from him so long as he's on this team where the expectation is simply be great at your role not go be a superstar.

My biggest reserve with him is sample size. When they traded Russ, Bron was out with injury and the Lakers really just put the ball in his hands. That's when he basically exploded. 18+ppg on insane efficiency the last 20 games of the season, while being their best play-maker and pick and roll option with AD in that stretch with no Bron. Had that been all we saw from him I'm be out. But extending that into another 16 games in the playoffs, that's nearly half a season sample size. And they were winning.

All of that aside it's really the little things that I think make him stand out for me and why I get so many TP/Manu like vibes from him. Hard to quantify things like that because we're going eye-test, but his confidence, foot-work, the body control and ability to create lay-up dunk attempts for others while holding dribble position in the paint, ability to get to the FT line, calling out guys like AD and Bron in game, attacking guys like Steph, Giannis, moments aren't too big for him. Seeing not only the Lakers running high ball screens for him and him playing the "LeBron-role", but also the awareness for him to call off the screen at half-court because he sees a seal opportunity on a mismatch 3-4 dribbles before he's even ready to make a pass.. To your very first point, that general feel for the game and "right play" and seeing plays before they happen isn't something we really see tons of other guys have. With that said, IDK how much room he has for growth. He's not going to blossom into a star, I doubt he ever makes an All-Star team. But as a role player he has one of the best complimentary games in the league, again going to draw comparisons to Manu here who excelled at that while only making 2 All-Star teams himself in his career.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Caruso was getting talked up to be a $100 Mil guy in a year?

No, but I wouldn't really compare the two based off what Reaves was post trade deadline - the playoffs either. Assuming he actually gets that 98m offer from somebody, which I'm not sold on, below are similar contracts coming off somewhat comparable playoff runs.

19/7/2 - TS% 54 - 137mm - Siakam
17/3/4 - TS% 64 - 140mm - Poole
18/9/2- TS% 65 - 133mm - Ayton
14/9/1 - TS% 63 - 125mm - J Collins
13/4/3 - TS% 49 - 120mm - Herro
11/4/3 - TS% 50 - 120mm - Hayward
19/4/4 - TS% 45 - 117mm - DLo
18/12/4 - TS% 43 - 117mm - Randle
17/8/2 - TS% 54 - 109mm - Wiggins
14/7/3 - TS% 49 - 107mm - Barrett
21/5/4- TS% 55 - 104mm - Brunson
17/4/5 - TS% 62 - 98mm - Reaves

Obviously a chunk of those guys have a lot more to offer, more potential, etc for why they got those deals. But if we're sorta dumbing it down to equating contract money to most recent playoff run I don't even think his would look all that bad.

Obviously Poole, Collins, Brunson are probably the most comparable in terms of age, not being top 10 draft picks, not being vets or star players, etc. Poole and Brunson most similar in role. Complimentary scorer with the starters, run the show when the best player sits. Brunson out-played the hell out of his contract, Poole not so much. But Reaves at 98mm looks a hell of a lot better than Poole at 140mm, assuming he sustains his play.

And IDK what 98mm would be compared more so to guys with contracts that are closer to ending. Maybe 80mish or so to a deal signed 4 years ago? Cap is always climbing.. Harrison Barnes, Davis Bertans, Eric Gordon, THJ, Joe Harris, Norman Powell

[ProfessaPackMan]

2023 Offseason Thread

First part is probably a given, but I actually don't think we have tons of guys play like that in deep playoff runs and then question if they are worth 20-25mm a year.

I guarantee if we go back and look/watch(I know we’re both not actually going to do this but humor me just for this)every non Star Level player performance, we’ll find a bunch of players who’ve had similar performances. What they’ll be worth is going to be subjective anyway

I mean he played as well or better than MPJ in any of his playoff runs and he's a 180mm guy. Actual production isn't far from a guy like Klay when he moved to 3rd behind KD&Steph..

I'm not saying he's as good as those guys or has that potential, but if they are assuming he's still getting better and he's giving you "3rd star" level value you'd be crazy to not think he could be a 20-25mm guy. I mean we're talking Terry Rozier, Malcolm Brogdon money, not a 40m max superstar money.

I’d have no problem with that, depending on the years and how the deal would be structured(Yes Armchair GMs, this stuff does matter)

Poole is probably another good example of a guy where nobody batted an eye when he signed for 140mm coming off a similarly efficient 17ppg playoff run like Reaves,

We sure about that??

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

I think if not for the fact that the Lakers will probably match anyways, Reaves would probably get that $98 mil as an unrestricted free agent. We’ll see how much being restricted hurts his market if at all.


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[JazzMan]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

I can’t lie…a part of me feels like he’s been getting gassed up because of who he plays for and because he’s white, lol. Because we’ve seen other guys like him have postseasons like this and never get gassed up like this. To go from random, undrafted guy to $100 Mil man(EYE know he’s not getting it but the fact that it’s even out there is wild)in the span of a year? He was good but idk about being *this* good, but that’s also off my very limited amount of time watching him(2 months)this season.

He’ll stay in LA, but I just see a souped up Caruso or even a low budget Jordan Poole. Which is perfect for that current Laker roster situation

part of LA's plight is definitely with their regret in letting Caruso walk instead of re-signing him, they don't want to see Reaves walk the same way, especially since I think he offensively has a lot of room to grow still

He's definitely getting overvalued at this point, but he just turned 25 and had a solid season averaging 13 a night off 42/39/86 shooting splits, and that's not taking into account his postseason run where I feel he was the most consistent Laker offensively

I wouldn't pay him $100M, honestly I'm not sure I'd even pay him 4/$80M, but I get why someone would

[ProfessaPackMan]

2023 Offseason Thread

part of LA's plight is definitely with their regret in letting Caruso walk instead of re-signing him, they don't want to see Reaves walk the same way, especially since I think he offensively has a lot of room to grow still



He's definitely getting overvalued at this point, but he just turned 25 and had a solid season averaging 13 a night off 42/39/86 shooting splits, and that's not taking into account his postseason run where I feel he was the most consistent Laker offensively



I wouldn't pay him $100M, honestly I'm not sure I'd even pay him 4/$80M, but I get why someone would

I was more blunt but this is where I’m at.

Everyone here knows I’m all about consistency, especially over a sustained period of time(few months don’t count because we’ve seen plenty of guys have a hot stretch over 3-4 month period, especially in a contract year, but then go back to being inconsistent.)

He played his role and that’s good. His best fit is with *this* Laker roster for the reasons OJ mention.

Am I throwing $100 Mil at that though? Nah. And I feel the same about our situation with Cam Johnson and the Pistons possibly throwing big money at him, but obviously our situation is different than the Lakers/Reaves in that regard.

I’ll say this because I feel like we all know all big money contracts aren’t the same for each team. $100 Mil for the Lakers makes sense again for reasons OJ mention but a team like the Bulls, Wizards, Hawks, Twolves…we’re all going to look at that deal funny.

I think if not for the fact that the Lakers will probably match anyways, Reaves would probably get that $98 mil as an unrestricted free agent. We’ll see how much being restricted hurts his market if at all.


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Sure but would that be an indication of the player itself or from teams having to spend money because they want to make a splash on somebody?

And yes, those are two different things because it’s happened before.

[ProfessaPackMan]

2023 Offseason Thread

Double post

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

He's definitely getting overvalued at this point, but he just turned 25 and had a solid season averaging 13 a night off 42/39/86 shooting splits, and that's not taking into account his postseason run where I feel he was the most consistent Laker offensively

To the bold part of this I feel like that run matters because we're also looking at it from a perspective of it being after the Russ trade. Reaves was playing at that level the last 20 games of the regular season too, averages of 18 on 57/43/85 shooting splits... If you want to lump those 20 games with the 16 playoff games, that is a 36 game sample. Almost half a season worth of games. Through the last 36 games he played this year - 17.5ppg on 51/44/86 splits.

To me, and maybe I'm way off base, but I feel like that run matters in the context of all this because that is really when his role shifted to be another "primary ball handler" for them. When you see the rumors of this contract I feel like that is the player these teams think they are signing.

I know we're talking about a still relatively small sample, but also we're looking at a largely different role too.

[ProfessaPackMan]

2023 Offseason Thread

To the bold part of this I feel like that run matters because we're also looking at it from a perspective of it being after the Russ trade. Reaves was playing at that level the last 20 games of the regular season too, averages of 18 on 57/43/85 shooting splits... If you want to lump those 20 games with the 16 playoff games, that is a 36 game sample. Almost half a season worth of games. Through the last 36 games he played this year - 17.5ppg on 51/44/86 splits.

To me, and maybe I'm way off base, but I feel like that run matters in the context of all this because that is really when his role shifted to be another "primary ball handler" for them. When you see the rumors of this contract I feel like that is the player these teams think they are signing.

I know we're talking about a still relatively small sample, but also we're looking at a largely different role too.

Fair enough, sir 🤝🏾

[georgiafan]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

@wojespn

Chicago Bulls center Nikola Vucevic is finalizing a three-year, $60M contract extension, his agents Bill Duffy and Rade Fillipovich tell ESPN.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Bulls extend Vuc, almost had to I guess but man the direction of this team is just odd. Really sucks Ball went down. Loved that team with him playing.

[illwill10]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Taurean Prince and Cam Reddish did not receive qualifying offers, so they're Free Agents.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Bulls extend Vuc, almost had to I guess but man the direction of this team is just odd. Really sucks Ball went down. Loved that team with him playing.

Not all that odd. I don't think the team is nearly as bad as their record suggests unlike majority of Bulls fans think they're terrible, but they do have obvious holes and need one or two shooters and a PG to replace Ball. Honestly if anything I'd trade DeMar and be done with that situation already. Gonna get less for him at the deadline if it comes to that cause they do not need to be trying to re-sign DeMar

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Not all that odd. I don't think the team is nearly as bad as their record suggests unlike majority of Bulls fans think they're terrible, but they do have obvious holes and need one or two shooters and a PG to replace Ball. Honestly if anything I'd trade DeMar and be done with that situation already. Gonna get less for him at the deadline if it comes to that cause they do not need to be trying to re-sign DeMar

Can they get a disabled player exception for Ball?