News Post

Why I'm Done With NBA Basketball This Year: NBA 2K9

11:53 AM - March 24, 2009 by RaychelSnr

If you have been paying attention to the community’s efforts to tweak NBA 2K9 during the past few months, you probably noticed that Neon1, one of the hardest-working NBA 2K community members, redid the ratings and tendencies for every player and coach in the game.

As someone who had previously shelved NBA 2K9 out of frustration, I was initially excited to sit down and try this tweaked version of NBA 2K9 now that March Madness is in full bloom.

But after only a few games as my underachieving Grizzlies -- who have actually gotten a lot better, ratings-wise, since I last touched the game -- it became clear to me that the same opinion I had formed a few months ago still holds true:

NBA 2K9 is a mess, and no amount of slider tweaking or roster editing can save it.

So, in the first of a two-part series, I am here to explain why I have given up on NBA hoops this year, and I am also here to detail what needs to be improved in 2010.

Read More - Why I'm Done With NBA Basketball This Year: NBA 2K9

Game: NBA 2K9Reader Score: 8.5/10 - Vote Now
Platform: PS2 / PS3 / Xbox 360Votes for game: 72 - View All

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Member Comments

# 261 Benicio10 @ 04/16/09 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	So you don't think Beluba would have told you the same exact thing while he was working for 2k? You're tripping. It's quite obvious this push by these companies is working. Seems like all 2k needs to do is have a stronger presence to give the appearance they are listening and all would be well with some of you.

It's not the appearance... EA is making near real-time implementations to their game based on direct user feedback from the online community.

For some reason, you've defended 2K's decision to not communicate with their hard core, which makes no sense to me. The silence is counter-productive and I hope you see some of the residual effects of that decision here on OS.

# 262 Pared @ 04/16/09 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benicio10


	It's not the appearance... EA is making near real-time implementations to their game based on direct user feedback from the online community. For some reason, you've defended 2K's decision to not communicate with their hard core, which makes no sense to me. The silence is counter-productive and I hope you see some of the residual effects of that decision here on OS.

There is nothing to defend. There is no one with a pink name from 2k Sports actively replying to every single concern those on this board has. They are doing so in Live.

Some will say EA needs to do it; To gain the trust back from their community.

Either way, the point is they are including what you want and saying "Yeah man, that's a great idea" while 2k has, year after year, just put it in the game without reassuring you. There is a difference, and some of you don't see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IGOTU23


	This is so ridiculous and sad...we are talking about a game..really!!??

That about puts it in perspective, honestly.

There are those that STILL say The Show is not a worthwhile sports game.

It's truly sad.

# 263 Behindshadows @ 04/16/09 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey P


	YAWN!!! Simballer - He doesn't have to defend the game, the proof is in the pudding. He still has a job, enuff said. MC, Czar or whomever - Just because they are not enjoying the game doesn't mean that they represent the full SIM or 2k masses. JoeJoe Pee. -Cheeser who loves the game and wants the game to be better but for now Ill take it FWIW. Shadows, stop it. Shooting jumpers with Noah, but complains about game not being sim. 9 games out of 100's and your qualified, great. But oh, I forgot, 2k needs to listen to you cuz you have bought all the games and kept em too. Seriously, do you guys play the game, still? If not, you guys are going off memory on what needs to be fixed. I play the game daily, at least one game a night. Somehow I always find myself jumping outta my seat, still, when a great play happens or a Rose dunk thru traffic with the DIT at 35, on Pro.

Every time I read one of your post, all I can visualize is someone saying," damn, ****, that is whack"! Anything past that is blocked out!

# 264 lasthour @ 04/16/09 12:29 PM

I think that the differences in perception for sports games come from the different levels of experience with the sport and game.

For example:

We all are not on the same level of understanding any sport. Therefore, real life being a Level 5, my understanding of the SPORT may be a Level 3 because of my experience with the sport. I may have played, coached a little, or I may just be very competitive in nature.

Someone else's point of view may be that they perceive themselves as being a Level 4 in understanding a sport because they are good at the GAME through practice and experience and some understanding of the sport.

Depending on individual opinions will result in confusing information, even though both side are sincere.

Ask yourself this, does the (videogame) give realistic stats, strategy, gameplay and make it fun when competing?

I think these type of games should learn lessons from games that have TIERS(SF4) and incorporate a similar style. That way, different teams can be competitive in their own style of play. The difference would come down to your skill level with a PARTICULAR team.

The game should be simple in design, yet somewhat deep in its execution of the different teams.

It may be confusing what I am trying to say, but I am trying to say it as simple as I can. Put the videogame back in the videogame!

# 265 Benicio10 @ 04/16/09 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	There is nothing to defend. There is no one with a pink name from 2k Sports actively replying to every single concern those on this board has. They are doing so in Live. Some will say EA needs to do it; To gain the trust back from their community. Either way, the point is they are including what you want and saying "Yeah man, that's a great idea" while 2k has, year after year, just put it in the game without reassuring you. There is a difference, and some of you don't see it. That about puts it in perspective, honestly. There are those that STILL say The Show is not a worthwhile sports game. It's truly sad.

Year after year the game has been a dunk-fest out of the box and guys like us here on OS have to revamp the game with slider fixes to try to prevent the user not from going for 50 4 times in a row with Kobe, but to stop him from getting 50 EVERY GAME in 5 min quarters.

Are they really listening? We've been crying for help defense. They put in a slider for it that doesn't even do anything.

We've been saying for years it's too easy to score in the paint. The online games are compromised because of this. We want realistic Points in the Paint. Realistic FG%'s, etc.

After months of slider testing and visiting 82games.com we get it "fixed" and then when the new year of NBA 2K comes out, we have to go back to the drawing board again because the series has not progressed towards realism.

This leads me to believe they aren't listening to the sim gamer, but have an objective to make the game fun for casuals out of the box (fake) and give us slider options to do the sim work for them. Not good business if you ask me.

And i think this design decision should be explained to the hardcore base more explicitly. Beluba today just posed that his #1 goal is to make Live the best sim out there.

Is it so hard to have 2K to have that kind of dialogue with us? Restore our confidence, because right now, it's dwindling away.

# 266 Rocky @ 04/16/09 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	You're starting to sound like Hillary Goldstein. Yes, that annoying little chick from IGN. He has the Shaq test... take Shaq and shoot threes with him all game and see how many fall. Here's the thing that bothers me... remember when Duncan hit the 3 pointer to send the game to OT in the playoffs? If that happened in your game, would you immediately come to OS and complain how it should NEVER happen? There should be the ability, in a sports game, for the "impossible" to happen. The problem is... who the hell shoots 3's with Shaq? What you're asking is for the impossible to always be impossible. Vince should never be able to catch a reverse dunk off an inbound alley to win the game. The NBA and sports gaming is about the impossible. The Rays shouldn't have made the World Series last year. Kobe shouldn't be dropping 50+ points on 4 consecutive games. It shouldn't happen in a game until it happens in real life. And that's where a lot of the comments of sports gamers really annoy me. Guys that play a game, then say "C'mon that would never happen!" but they see amazing things happen all the time. And if it does happen in real life, there's an explanation for it. "Well, we all saw this one coming." No, you didn't. It's more about what the game is doing wrong than what it allows you to do right. There's a group of gamers that modify sliders, rosters, whatever, all year long because so and so "isn't possible." It's THAT gamer that I would hope these game developers never cater to. And this has nothing to do with the high FG%'s out of the box in 2k9, the lack of foot planting by the defense, the lack of fast breaks in Live '09, the supposed comeback AI in The Show... it's about what "tests" a sports game should be able to pass. This isn't the GMAT. It seems like I'm getting too old for some of the posts by "gamers" here.

Exquisite post.

My question is, if you play the game in a sim manner and the game performs well and how a sim should, how is it not a sim?

This thread has strayed so far off the original topic, it's ridiculous. I think the passing system and the lack of defensive rotations are by far the two biggest issues in this game. Let's talk about that.

But instead, we're arguing about this obscure idea of what is "sim" and what is "arcade".

# 267 Pared @ 04/16/09 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benicio10


	Year after year the game has been a dunk-fest out of the box and guys like us here on OS have to revamp the game with slider fixes to try to prevent the user not from going for 50 4 times in a row with Kobe, but to stop him from getting 50 EVERY GAME in 5 min quarters.

There aren't many games that you can't say that about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benicio10


	Are they really listening? We've been crying for help defense. They put in a slider for it that doesn't even do anything.

This is incorrect. In fact, someone posted videos in how the help defense slider works in the slider thread. It should be all the way to the left to induce help defense and all the way to the right to make your players stick to their man. He actually got blasted at first for saying it was "backwards."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benicio10


	We've been saying for years it's too easy to score in the paint. The online games are compromised because of this. We want realistic Points in the Paint. Realistic FG%'s, etc.

I can agree with this, but it depends on what you're talking about. This is a problem here on the boards... as saying this as if it doesn't matter if it's vs. the computer or another player. Too many guys here buy a game and play by themselves... and that's where I think most of this outlash comes from. The guys that are enjoying the game are playing each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benicio10


	After months of slider testing and visiting 82games.com we get it "fixed" and then when the new year of NBA 2K comes out, we have to go back to the drawing board again because the series has not progressed towards realism. This leads me to believe they aren't listening to the sim gamer, but have an objective to make the game fun for casuals out of the box (fake) and give us slider options to do the sim work for them. Not good business if you ask me.

Not good business? The series has sold the most it ever has?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benicio10


	And i think this design decision should be explained to the hardcore base more explicitly. Beluba today just posed that his #1 goal is to make Live the best sim out there. Is it so hard to have 2K to have that kind of dialogue with us? Restore our confidence, because right now, it's dwindling away.

Are we back on this? Did you not read the comments on how anyone with any sort of sense would expect them to say that?

# 268 Benicio10 @ 04/16/09 01:09 PM

Pared, I play the game mostly against people and without heavy slider changes, you can easily score 90% of your buckets in the paint. There is no incentive to shoot a jumpshot because it becomes a lower % shot in a competitive game.

You'll say, "play people who play sim", and i'll tell you that I want the game to prevent the user from being rewarded for playing cheesy. If real teams could score 90% of their points in the paint they would too. But they score about 1/3 of their PIP because that's all they can get. That's why we edit sliders.

And I don't want to play a game where Kobe can average 2 points a minute. It's unrealistic and not fun at all. The game can be re-tuned by sliders to prevent a lot of cheese. So why don't they use that re-tuned game as the starting point for the following version? I'm starting to realize it's because they don't want to produce a sim, just like Madden under David Ortiz didn't want to be a sim, and just like NBA Live didn't want to until Mike Wang came. I group NBA 2K in that same boat now. The proof is in the the product.

# 269 Pared @ 04/16/09 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benicio10


	Pared, I play the game mostly against people and without heavy slider changes, you can easily score 90% of your buckets in the paint. There is no incentive to shoot a jumpshot because it becomes a lower % shot in a competitive game. You'll say, "play people who play sim", and i'll tell you that I want the game to prevent the user from being rewarded for playing cheesy. If real teams could score 90% of their points in the paint they would too. But they score about 1/3 of their PIP because that's all they can get. That's why we edit sliders. And I don't want to play a game where Kobe can average 2 points a minute. It's unrealistic and not fun at all. The game can be re-tuned by sliders to prevent a lot of cheese. So why don't they use that re-tuned game as the starting point for the following version? I'm starting to realize it's because they don't want to produce a sim, just like Madden under David Ortiz didn't want to be a sim, and just like NBA Live didn't want to until Mike Wang came. I group NBA 2K in that same boat now. The proof is in the the product.

So why wouldn't you adjust the sliders?

They have a game that caters to the masses and they include 2kShare so you can take advantage of it. Why wouldn't you, especially since you can use them online?

I know what you're saying, but people are arguing about things they CAN change. If you want to argue the CPU plays a predictable offense, fine. That's a valid point, IMHO. But saying too many shots go in at a certain rate... and you can alter the sliders....

The argument a few years ago was "We need sliders to fix our game and get it to play the way we want."

Now, the argument is "We shouldn't have to use sliders."

I feel like I'm one of the few, having been such a big advocate of sliders, that can honestly say this sort of backwards thinking is something I can't grasp. We don't discuss the hardcore issues in this game half the time. It's typically something you can change yourself but people have no will to do so. They can come here, make 23 posts in a thread they created arguing their stance... but they can't actually spend that time looking for a solution.

# 270 Benicio10 @ 04/16/09 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	So why wouldn't you adjust the sliders? They have a game that caters to the masses and they include 2kShare so you can take advantage of it. Why wouldn't you, especially since you can use them online? I know what you're saying, but people are arguing about things they CAN change. If you want to argue the CPU plays a predictable offense, fine. That's a valid point, IMHO. But saying too many shots go in at a certain rate... and you can alter the sliders.... The argument a few years ago was "We need sliders to fix our game and get it to play the way we want." Now, the argument is "We shouldn't have to use sliders." I feel like I'm one of the few, having been such a big advocate of sliders, that can honestly say this sort of backwards thinking is something I can't grasp. We don't discuss the hardcore issues in this game half the time. It's typically something you can change yourself but people have no will to do so. They can come here, make 23 posts in a thread they created arguing their stance... but they can't actually spend that time looking for a solution.

Pared,

I know you've taken a look at my slider threads in the past. I DO take the time to fix these things, but it's tiring and time consuming. Believe me. And by the time you kind of get it down it's All Star break already.

And it's not encouraging at all when the following year the next iteration comes out with the same identified issues from the prior year.

Here's what I'm trying to get across ...

The fact that the user base tunes the game towards sim, and 2K fails to ignore the idea of tuning theirs towards sim means it's a design decision to keep the game fake.

And at this age, and this stage of my life with limited time to print out shot charts and spreadsheets from 82games.com and and box scores laying all over my table to try to get the game to replicate real NBA, it's just not worth it.

It's refreshing to see groups of developers like Ian's Madden team and Mike Wang's Live team and of course, The Show, provide us with the re-assurance that they are at least TRYING to duplicate their real respective sports.

You feel me right, Pared? I respect your opinion or I wouldn't engage in this discussion. Peace!

# 271 DC @ 04/16/09 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	There is nothing to defend. There is no one with a pink name from 2k Sports actively replying to every single concern those on this board has. They are doing so in Live. Some will say EA needs to do it; To gain the trust back from their community.

And some would say 2K NEEDS to do it because they are LOSING our trust.

I have blind faith in 2K year after year for some odd reason. But I guess that is what FAITH is. Believing in something that you can't prove will happen.

As much as I WANT to say forget 2K, let me mess with Live, I can't do it. Why? Because there is always hope. There is always hope that they won't make a game that rewards people that press the whole game. Hope that I won't see Emeka Okafor perform a windmill in traffic (default rosters + setting NBA 2K8).

I just want a believable game.

# 272 DC @ 04/16/09 01:51 PM

Quote:


	This is incorrect. In fact, someone posted videos in how the help defense slider works in the slider thread. It should be all the way to the left to induce help defense and all the way to the right to make your players stick to their man. He actually got blasted at first for saying it was "backwards."

Now THAT is a myth. I have played numerous game with the slider to the left and I have still seem MANY (way more times than not) instances where a blowby happens and the opposite wing is still glued to his man.

Any time it happens when I am playing online vs someone I replay it. Ask Mo or SweetJamesJones.

The help defense this year is BROKEN. It needs to be fixed. Point blank man.

# 273 Pared @ 04/16/09 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benicio10


	Pared, I know you've taken a look at my slider threads in the past. I DO take the time to fix these things, but it's tiring and time consuming. Believe me. And by the time you kind of get it down it's All Star break already. And it's not encouraging at all when the following year the next iteration comes out with the same identified issues from the prior year. Here's what I'm trying to get across ... The fact that the user base tunes the game towards sim, and 2K fails to ignore the idea of tuning theirs towards sim means it's a design decision to keep the game fake. And at this age, and this stage of my life with limited time to print out shot charts and spreadsheets from 82games.com and and box scores laying all over my table to try to get the game to replicate real NBA, it's just not worth it. It's refreshing to see groups of developers like Ian's Madden team and Mike Wang's Live team and of course, The Show, provide us with the re-assurance that they are at least TRYING to duplicate their real respective sports. You feel me right, Pared? I respect your opinion or I wouldn't engage in this discussion. Peace!

I absolutely know what you're talking about. I used to post sliders on here for guys that didn't have the time. I did what you did.. for the community.

But you hit a point where either you can't fix something and accept it or you see something that you don't think is believable and go right back to altering sliders. Using my previous example, if TD hit a 3 pointer against you to send a game to OT, you would either adjust the sliders or blame it on the rosters.

The problem is some in the community, here, love to extrapolate their examples to appear comedic to boards. It's a contest to see who can be the most ridiculous. If I were a dev., I would scratch my head because people post things like "Shaq be hittin' fadeaways all the time yo!"

There's no possible way they can improve a game off comments like that. Especially when their ridiculous examples aren't the norm.

# 274 Pared @ 04/16/09 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican


	Now THAT is a myth. I have played numerous game with the slider to the left and I have still seem MANY (way more times than not) instances where a blowby happens and the opposite wing is still glued to his man. Any time it happens when I am playing online vs someone I replay it. Ask Mo or SweetJamesJones. The help defense this year is BROKEN. It needs to be fixed. Point blank man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHrnI...703C7&index=13

It needs work, absolutely. But this is the sort of extreme example that I am talking about. It's not "broken" by any means. Broken means it never happens. It will NOT EVER occur.

But we're just arguing linguistics now. The point is, it is there.

EDIT: They probably have their help defense slider all the way to the right.

# 275 DC @ 04/16/09 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by totalownership


	Sliders can only go so far though. The rosters need a rework. Ratings are all screwed up. When I see Dwight Howard consistently hitting 12 foot turn around fades then I pretty much roll my eyes and call it a day.

And that is another story. Rosters. Why must we constantly get roster updates that are CLEARLY from "someone" that is not a die hard NBA fan? In terms of knowledge, let me say that.

Since we are fighting a MACHINE in EA (Synergy) we can't just have anyone doing the rosters man. The 2K Insider is a joke. While it is better than previous years of 2K, it is still a joke. MOST of the roster sets here are MUCH better.

It seems like the insider rosters are cool rosters. Not much substance. They NEED to do better in this department.

Can't even get realistic simmed stats with those rosters because EVERYONE has high shooting ratings. It is sad

# 276 DC @ 04/16/09 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHrnI...703C7&index=13 It needs work, absolutely. But this is the sort of extreme example that I am talking about. It's not "broken" by any means. Broken means it never happens. It will NOT EVER occur. But we're just arguing linguistics now. The point is, it is there.

Broken doesn't mean NEVER. Broken means it doesn't work the way it should work.

We both can agree that they need to go back to the drawing board.

And didn't I JUST say more times than not the help defense isn't there? So why would you post an example when it is there? I didn't say NEVER, I said more times than NOT. And that IS the truth witht he Help slider at 0 or 100.

# 277 Pared @ 04/16/09 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican


	Broken doesn't mean NEVER. Broken means it doesn't work the way it should work. We both can agree that they need to go back to the drawing board. And didn't I JUST say more times than not the help defense isn't there? So why would you post an example when it is there? I didn't say NEVER, I said more times than NOT. And that IS the truth witht he Help slider at 0 or 100.

No, they don't need to go back to the drawing board. They need to do that if it NEVER happens, which is what you're saying you're NOT saying.

They need to sag off and bring over help more. They need to have the big men step up to the circle and challenge the drive. They need to play off the weakside corner and play ball-you-man.

They can do things to improve but they certainly don't have to go back to the drawing board. That's another example of what I am talking about in using a drastic example to get your point across.

You said your teammates don't help but you've also said you hardly use lock on. Maybe you should start.

# 278 DC @ 04/16/09 02:07 PM

Quote:


	No, they don't need to go back to the drawing board. They need to do that if it NEVER happens, which is what you're saying you're NOT saying.

COme on Pared, how does this sound.

So ONLY if something NEVER works does it need to be carefully looked at again?

Go back to the drawing board, re-work, look at again. Same thing, different words. Stop nitpicking about word choice man PLEASE. You are being real petty right now man.

We are on the same page like J said.

The help defense needs to improve. Is that better? Damn.........

Why the hell are we talking abotu help defense when everyone knows it needs work

I'm out man I don't even know what this topic is about anymore

# 279 Benicio10 @ 04/16/09 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	I absolutely know what you're talking about. I used to post sliders on here for guys that didn't have the time. I did what you did.. for the community. But you hit a point where either you can't fix something and accept it or you see something that you don't think is believable and go right back to altering sliders. Using my previous example, if TD hit a 3 pointer against you to send a game to OT, you would either adjust the sliders or blame it on the rosters. The problem is some in the community, here, love to extrapolate their examples to appear comedic to boards. It's a contest to see who can be the most ridiculous. If I were a dev., I would scratch my head because people post things like "Shaq be hittin' fadeaways all the time yo!" There's no possible way they can improve a game off comments like that. Especially when their ridiculous examples aren't the norm.

i know what you mean about those guys,

but i think the hardcore community has expressed far more than enough substance to warrant these changes. And even without the community, how come I see it? If the devs want to make realistic FG%'s but aren't it means they're incompetent. And i dont think they are. They just want to make an arcadey game and that's fine. But i'm going to walk away if that's the case.

i never changed sliders off 1 shot, i always looked at large sample sizes before i made a change. it's slider editing 101. if the overall %'s are in line and TD hits a 3, it's ok. I'm confident that the 3's arent too high since ray allen went 3-11 from behind the arc last time i played with him. you know what i mean?

But to sum this all up, 2K does need to communicate with us their design objectives for this game for 2 reasons...

1. it's becoming an industry standard, not just in gaming but all of the tech industry.

2. the hardcore followers of this game (who want sim) are beginning to lose confidence in the franchise's ability to replicate real NBA basketball.

# 280 DC @ 04/16/09 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pared


	You said your teammates don't help but you've also said you hardly use lock on. Maybe you should start.

Explain please...........Me using lock defense will trigger help?

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