2013 Toronto Blue Jays

[SPTO]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

This is the team that has given Juan Rivera, Corey Patterson, Jo-Jo Reyes, and Dana Eveland extended looks. I can't say I'm surprised.

I sincerely hope Maicer is next. I had semi-reasonable hopes for him, but wow has he been bad.

At least Izturis has shown a pulse in stretches this season. I think he's salvageable though mostly in a backup/utility role especially if the Jays can get a credible 2B to start.

[AC]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

At least Izturis has shown a pulse in stretches this season. I think he's salvageable though mostly in a backup/utility role especially if the Jays can get a credible 2B to start.

I'd be okay with him in a backup role, I guess. We just need a slightly below league average 2B, even.

If we had slightly below average players at LF, 2B, and C, this team would be much better off, as opposed to the negative value those positions have provided.

[bhurst99]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

Izturis is hitting .137 in 73 at bats since the All-Star break. I had no idea he had been that bad.

[speels]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

You know, I look at Aaron Hill right now and notice that he is batting over .300 since being traded, maybe there is a 2nd base curse!!

Anyway, this team under performed and for that I blame Gibbons and the coaching staff. That being said, AA certainly doesn't get a get a passing grade either. You bring in MLB calibre players in a trade and then have minor league coaches try to get them to play better.

This team needs a legitimate manager and coaches that have some street cred. Walker was a below average major leaguer, so was the hitting coach, and so was Gibbons. Yea, they'll get you to the promised land fast!!

I have been happy with the fans though, they seem to be standing behind this team.
Gose will be up in Sept to earn that LF spot, although Davis has been playing well recently.

[AC]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

Walker was a below average major leaguer, so was the hitting coach, and so was Gibbons. Yea, they'll get you to the promised land fast!!

Terry Francona had a .300 OBP.

Connie Mack hit .245.

Tony La Russa played 6 years, and finished his career below the Mendoza line.

Bobby Cox was the proud owner of a .619 OPS in two years as a player.

Sparky Anderson hit .218 in one season.




Street cred? For real? Not only are you attributing our entire season's losses to a manager, rather than a GM who's evaluation skills are poor to say the least, and the under-performing players, you're criticizing said manager for not having street cred? This isn't grade 6. And yeah, you totally need to be an all star to be a manager. Just ask those guys.

[speels]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

Terry Francona had a .300 OBP.

Connie Mack hit .245.

Tony La Russa played 6 years, and finished his career below the Mendoza line.

Bobby Cox was the proud owner of a .619 OPS in two years as a player.

Sparky Anderson hit .218 in one season.




Street cred? For real? Not only are you attributing our entire season's losses to a manager, rather than a GM who's evaluation skills are poor to say the least, and the under-performing players, you're criticizing said manager for not having street cred? This isn't grade 6. And yeah, you totally need to be an all star to be a manager. Just ask those guys.

Holy crap dude relax!! I laugh because you are comparing John Gibbons to some of the greatest managers of all time, who all of them , by the way, coached in the minors and won for a while before making it to the big leagues, and that is "street cred". And Conny Mack owned the team he coached!!

I also never said you had to be an all star to coach, but I think that it helps.

And no where did I state that all the losses were on Gibbons. I said that the team has underperformed and for that I blame Gibbons and the coaching staff. As a coach you need to get your players to play better, and of all your coaches above, they got the best from every player that played fro them, Gibbons and the coaching staff have not.....fact!!

And I said I blame AA too, but in all fairness I did just state the coaching choices. And let me say, who would not have picked up the players AA picked up in the off season? I admit I was concerned with Dickey and Cabrera, who picks up a knuckleballer to pitch indoors, but I liked where the team was headed. The players under performed, and you can blame the players for that, but it is also on the coaches.

Now, I like what Mottola has done with a couple players, Lawrie, Rasmus, Lind. He has them hitting well this year, but he sure didn't help Bautista (a whole other story), Boni, Izturis, etc, but I am seeing the hitters coming a long way from the start of the season. As for pitching, well injuries have had an effect, but other than Buehrle, not one has been anywhere near consistent and that needs to change.

We can both agree that AA took a huge swing and miss this year, and in the process has caused a lot of concern for us in the future, but I still feel that this team, with the right management and coaching, can get into the playoffs and contend for a title next year.

[SPTO]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

ACMilan was that way because you made a blanket statement. If you're going to complain about Gibbons and the coaching staff you have to have more than "they were below average/minor league players" as your basis for argument. Gibbons I think, isn't necessarily the problem as he's a very good manager with the bullpen though at times I think he pulls his starters a little too early. He took the calculated risk of having Bautista batting 2nd for most of the year which seemed to work as it allowed more ABs and put Encarnacion in more RBI type situations.

My main issue with the staff is Pete Walker, the only experience he's had is as the bullpen coach and every interview i've heard him do he just seems like a guy going with a prepared program with little to no variation for the individual pitcher. I would like a more experienced pitching coach here though not someone who's nearing the end of his coaching career.

It's taken Mottola a while to get to some of his players and I think part of it early on is the conflict of keeping Dwayne Murphy on the staff. Murphy has done some great work with some of the guys but his approach to hitting conflicts greatly with Mottola's so I think we may see Murphy being let go. Maybe they can promote Tim Raines to be a 1B/3B coach if he wants to do all the travel again.

DeMarlo Hale is a manager in waiting. He was supposed to be the successor to Buck Showalter in Baltimore so I don't see any problem keeping him around.

[speels]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

ACMilan was that way because you made a blanket statement. If you're going to complain about Gibbons and the coaching staff you have to have more than "they were below average/minor league players" as your basis for argument. Gibbons I think, isn't necessarily the problem as he's a very good manager with the bullpen though at times I think he pulls his starters a little too early. He took the calculated risk of having Bautista batting 2nd for most of the year which seemed to work as it allowed more ABs and put Encarnacion in more RBI type situations.

My main issue with the staff is Pete Walker, the only experience he's had is as the bullpen coach and every interview i've heard him do he just seems like a guy going with a prepared program with little to no variation for the individual pitcher. I would like a more experienced pitching coach here though not someone who's nearing the end of his coaching career.

It's taken Mottola a while to get to some of his players and I think part of it early on is the conflict of keeping Dwayne Murphy on the staff. Murphy has done some great work with some of the guys but his approach to hitting conflicts greatly with Mottola's so I think we may see Murphy being let go. Maybe they can promote Tim Raines to be a 1B/3B coach if he wants to do all the travel again.

DeMarlo Hale is a manager in waiting. He was supposed to be the successor to Buck Showalter in Baltimore so I don't see any problem keeping him around.

Ya, I re-read my initial post and I did come across as saying that was the only reason that they are bad, which really wasn't what I meant. I was just frustrated with how this team hasn't lived up to expectations. I think Gibby is great with the bullpen, but his managerial style just doesn't seem to work with this team. I know people like him because he is a player's coach, but sometimes you have to be the bad guy and make tough decisions. For example, I love that he kept Adam Lind in the lineup against all batters, that has proven to be good for Lind. Same with Rasmus, he is having a solid year. But 2nd base has been a disaster.

As for the pitchers, I agree that sometimes he pulls them too early and I think we are seeing the effects of that now as the bullpen has struggled since the all start break. I think they are just tired.

I agree with you on Walker, he seems to have 1 plan and that doesn't work when you have 1 knuckleballer, one above average lefty, 1 lefty that throws very slow but can pick a dime off the corner, one fireballer who needs to just be let loose, and another fireballer who has lost some speed and now really needs to look at placement more than just blowing fastballs by everybody.

Again, I see what Mottola is doing and I like it.

[SPTO]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

Anthony Gose has been called up and may play tonight. Does that mean a 2/3rds youth OF tonight? YIKES! Although I must say Pillar has impressed me defensively, not so much with the bat though.

[SPTO]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

So.....I hope Lawrie is reverting back to the Lawrie of a couple years ago and this isn't some flash in the pan.

I guess we'll see next year.

[bhurst99]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

It's really hard watching the AL East this year with all the ex-Jays in much better positions than the current team.

I can handle Farrell guiding the Red Sox to a playoff spot.

But I find it so hard to believe Escobar and Kelly Johnson are regulars on a first-place team. I never would have predicted that.

Even the terrible Jason Nix is hitting homers against us.

Arrgghhh.

[AC]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

I can take solace in the fact that they're in a playoff spot despite John Farrell.

I won't get into metrics, but it was fairly apparent Escobar was gonna provide a LOT of value and that trading him wasn't the right thing. KJ was a wild card that worked out, but Escobar is an absolutely amazing shortstop.

Right now, it's selective rooting for me. I'm rooting for Lawrie to have amazing game after amazing game. I'm rooting for Rasmus and Bautista to get back ASAP. But I have no problem cheering against Arencibia, or Izturis, etc, because I know that when they screw up, it increases the likelihood that we get rid of them, which is for the better of the team.

I'm alright with us losing. In fact, I prefer it. There are some great prospects in the draft, and we have two picks next year. After a perfect draft this year (wow was I wrong on the draft, AA owned it this year), we're restocking the cupboard and gaining more young assets. If we tank for the rest of the year, and retool after the year, I'll be one happy camper. With some minor trades and decent signings, this team could be really nice.

[bhurst99]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

I'm alright with us losing. In fact, I prefer it. There are some great prospects in the draft, and we have two picks next year. After a perfect draft this year (wow was I wrong on the draft, AA owned it this year), we're restocking the cupboard and gaining more young assets. If we tank for the rest of the year, and retool after the year, I'll be one happy camper. With some minor trades and decent signings, this team could be really nice.

How many years have we been saying that?

It's incredible how few players we have developed in our own system. I wish I had your confidence that we could draft well and develop players in our minor leagues.

[AC]

How many years have we been saying that?

It's incredible how few players we have developed in our own system. I wish I had your confidence that we could draft well and develop players in our minor leagues.

I know, it sucks, and we were so close too. I guess we could argue we developed Bautista, EE, Lawrie, Morrow, etc even though we didn't draft them.

And for the record, I'm not too confident lol. But that's what you need to do. Develop prospects and hope.

Everyone keep an eye on Franklin Barreto. Kid is tearing it up.

[bhurst99]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

I know, it sucks, and we were so close too. I guess we could argue we developed Bautista, EE, Lawrie, Morrow, etc even though we didn't draft them.

And for the record, I'm not too confident lol. But that's what you need to do. Develop prospects and hope.

Everyone keep an eye on Franklin Barreto. Kid is tearing it up.

I can't get that excited about rookie league prospects. Especially when they're 5-9, 174 and hitting just .299.

He could be great but I just can't get excited about it at this point.

I want a big stud like 6-5, 220 pounds who eats baseballs for breakfast. Someone like Yasiel Puig.

I can dream can't I?

I'd dream for a great starting pitching prospect but we both know he'd just blow out his shoulder in the Jays organization because that's our luck.