2013 Toronto Blue Jays

[AC]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

Batting Joey second is the most idiotic think he has done.

How is Lawrie batting ninth a good managerial decision? It's a pretty obvious decision when he's hitting .200.

I don't even know what "general badassary" means.

Another managerial search? We didn't do a proper one last season. AA just looked for a guy who would be agreeable to whatever AA and Paul Beeston wanted after the John Farrell disaster.

I don't blame Gibbons for this disaster of a season. That lies with the players. But why you would think he's a good manager is beyond comprehension. There's nothing to suggest that from his past resume. They pretty much rescued him from the minor league coaching scrap heap when they hired him this season.

Lmao, I would absolutely love to hear the logic behind that. E: Rather than even gripe about this, go read this article. Your best hitter hits first, but since Joey won't be hitting leadoff, second is the second best place to put him. Not that it even matters. Lineup optimization is probably worth about 16 runs or .16 wins a year. Not worth griping over.

It's a decision nonetheless and most likely one Farrell wouldn't have made.

That's a shame.

Oh, yeah, not like we interviewed candidates or anything.

A.) backing up your points is for keyboard warriors, amirite? B.) Expand on 'previous resume' please. C.) Do you have any actual gripes or concerns you'd like to list out rather than just kinda randomly disagreeing? Also, I find it kinda funny that you think we would 'rescue a guy from the minor league coaching scrap heaps' in a year as important as this one. I think AA is pretty stupid, but absolutely not that stupid. That's Wade-ian.

[SPTO]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

At first I thought the Bautista batting 2nd thing was weird but I quickly understood the move and it does give some flexibility in the lineup as I think Encarnacion fits the 3 hole much better than Jose. Jose batting 2nd gets far more ABS and almost as many RBI opportunities if the rest of the lineup actually performs to their ability.

[AC]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

For one, studies have shown that the #3 hitter comes up in more situations that include a runner at first and two out significantly more than the #2 hitter. That makes sense, too, it's not some unexpected result spit out at the bottom of a 40-MB spreadsheet (totally stole that line from Grant Brisbee).

Also, Bryan, look at this article as well. If batting Bautista is the second most idiotic thing Gibby's done, then Gibby must be doing a damn good job (he is). It's much more important that we don't bat Emilio Bonifacio second than it is that we bat our best hitter first or something. So I still don't see a single legitimate gripe about Gibbons.

And if the gripe is that he 'looks disinterested..'

[bhurst99]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

AC are you serious about that article you quoted about the managerial search?

"The Toronto GM wouldn't reveal names or the number of candidates he has interviewed but said the process is moving along."

What does that tell you? Nothing. It doesn't mean he interviewed one candidate or 20.

They hired Gibbons for a second time after he managed the Double A San Antonio Missions. They were 60-80 last year. If that isn't the minor league scrap heap I don't what is.

[G3no_11]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

I know I'm not a Jays fan, but I like to read about basically any team and the Jays just happen to be one of more active threads.

My .02:

I'm pretty impartial about the batting order. I don't think there is really a right or wrong way to set a lineup. It is very important, but IMO it is really dependent on the specific team. The Jays actually have a lineup that seems to fit the lineup the link suggests. I think it also helps a lot with being in the AL and not having to worry about the pitcher's spot.

As far as Gibbons goes. The Rockies hired Walt Weiss who was a former high school baseball coach. Who do you think is more qualifyied to be a manager in the MLB? A manager of the (AA) San Antonio Missions or a coach of a class A high school team?

I just don't really see where there is reason to hate on Gibbons. Not knowing how many other candidates there were or him managing the Missions aren't valid reasons in my opinion.

If he is the scapegoat then I get it. That happens all the time but I think it would be a little stupid to fire him after one season.

I think the Jays' biggest problem is just staying healthy. How can you blame the manager if you have Esmil Rogers in your rotation?

[SPTO]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

I know I'm not a Jays fan, but I like to read about basically any team and the Jays just happen to be one of more active threads.

My .02:

I'm pretty impartial about the batting order. I don't think there is really a right or wrong way to set a lineup. It is very important, but IMO it is really dependent on the specific team. The Jays actually have a lineup that seems to fit the lineup the link suggests. I think it also helps a lot with being in the AL and not having to worry about the pitcher's spot.

As far as Gibbons goes. The Rockies hired Walt Weiss who was a former high school baseball coach. Who do you think is more qualifyied to be a manager in the MLB? A manager of the (AA) San Antonio Missions or a coach of a class A high school team?

I just don't really see where there is reason to hate on Gibbons. Not knowing how many other candidates there were or him managing the Missions aren't valid reasons in my opinion.

If he is the scapegoat then I get it. That happens all the time but I think it would be a little stupid to fire him after one season.

I think the Jays' biggest problem is just staying healthy. How can you blame the manager if you have Esmil Rogers in your rotation?

The difference is, Walt Weiss was a very steady and well respected MLB player for years with the Oakland A's and were on the teams that went to the WS in the late '80s. It's not like they plucked some unknown.

I do agree with you though, if Gibbons is fired it's mainly as a scapegoat. As I said earlier I think that's likely going to be the case if things don't turn around sometime early next season. It's not something I particularly want to see as he's good with the bullpen management, has made some gutsy calls regarding the batting order but at the same time there's been some serious warts on this team that weren't necessarily there last year. The fielding has taken a complete nosedive (I wonder if Butterfield were still here if this would be the case?) and the younger players have completely fallen off a cliff.

There were whispers early in the season that the locker room isn't as tight as one would believe and it's looking like that may be the case which is troubling because a good manager should be able to identify said problem rather than foster a "we'll get better don't worry" clubhouse atmosphere.

[SPTO]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

So I see Arencibia has quit twitter.

heh...

[AC]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

AC are you serious about that article you quoted about the managerial search?

"The Toronto GM wouldn't reveal names or the number of candidates he has interviewed but said the process is moving along."

What does that tell you? Nothing. It doesn't mean he interviewed one candidate or 20.

They hired Gibbons for a second time after he managed the Double A San Antonio Missions. They were 60-80 last year. If that isn't the minor league scrap heap I don't what is.

Wow, a GM known for being fairly secretive doesn't reveal something? By golly gosh, I am just shocked.

Also, we aren't really going to judge a manager not only based on record, but based on minor league record, are we?

So I see Arencibia has quit twitter.

heh...

Oh thank god.

[G3no_11]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

The difference is, Walt Weiss was a very steady and well respected MLB player for years with the Oakland A's and were on the teams that went to the WS in the late '80s. It's not like they plucked some unknown.

I probably should have mentioned that. He was not only respected through out the league but spent most of his 30's as a Rockie.

I was just saying that I don't agree with judging someone from they were previously. The fact that Gibbons was a AA manager doesn't mean he is not capable of being a good MLB manager.

[AC]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

Darren Oliver has morphed into a horrible, terrible, awful pitcher and if he's still around by the time Santos gets back I will be extremely disappointed in Anthopoulos.

[bhurst99]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

Also, we aren't really going to judge a manager not only based on record, but based on minor league record, are we?

Yes, we're going to judge a manager by his win-loss record. That's how it works.

But good on Gibbons for putting Bautista back in the three slot and Edwin clean-up. Too bad the pitching has completely fallen apart.

[AC]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

Yes, we're going to judge a manager by his win-loss record. That's how it works.

No, it isn't, lmao

If you put 25 Emilio Bonifacios on a roster managed by Joe Torre and they went 30-132, is Joe Torre a bad manager?

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

I could never in my wildest dream have imagined the starting rotation would end up like it has. Or, after an eleven game winning streak to get back over .500 the Jays wouldn't at least tread water the rest of the way. I was at least gunning for an 82-82 with some solace in a couple individual performances.

One of the worst seasons as a Jays fan based on roster. Obviously there were some dark times in the early/mid 2000's, and a couple awful seasons post '93, but this is one sets a new low benchmark for me to measure all other Jays seasons by.

[Majingir]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

I could never in my wildest dream have imagined the starting rotation would end up like it has. Or, after an eleven game winning streak to get back over .500 the Jays wouldn't at least tread water the rest of the way. I was at least gunning for an 82-82 with some solace in a couple individual performances.

One of the worst seasons as a Jays fan based on roster. Obviously there were some dark times in the early/mid 2000's, and a couple awful seasons post '93, but this is one sets a new low benchmark for me to measure all other Jays seasons by.

2013 Jays have to be the biggest letdown in Toronto sports history.

Their rotation in 2013 is worse than the rotation in 2000(the 2000 rotation also featured big names who had HIGH ERA,though the 1 difference is that in 2000,that was almost like the peak of the steroid era so most teams ERAs were inflated)

One plus side about the Jays season...It's making me feel like Leafs playoff game 7 was nothing and making me that much more excited for Leafs/Raptors season lol.

One day saying...."Remember the 2013 Jays", will be a running gag for Jays fans anytime they suck in a future season.

[SPTO]

Re: 2013 Toronto Blue Jays

Darren Oliver has morphed into a horrible, terrible, awful pitcher and if he's still around by the time Santos gets back I will be extremely disappointed in Anthopoulos.

Oliver is clearly dogging it until he gets traded to a contender.

I could never in my wildest dream have imagined the starting rotation would end up like it has. Or, after an eleven game winning streak to get back over .500 the Jays wouldn't at least tread water the rest of the way. I was at least gunning for an 82-82 with some solace in a couple individual performances.

One of the worst seasons as a Jays fan based on roster. Obviously there were some dark times in the early/mid 2000's, and a couple awful seasons post '93, but this is one sets a new low benchmark for me to measure all other Jays seasons by.

I agree with you, I was expecting an 81-84 win team and some bright spots but right now it's become a horror show of epic proportions. I can't think of a Toronto team in any sport with the kind of expectations that have sucked this badly. The only thing that comes close is that season when the Raptors got Olajuwon but I believe they made it to the playoffs that year so it wasn't THAT bad.

This is like a tire fire and heads are DEFINITELY going to roll. The fans aren't going to swallow any kind of excuses from Beeston, AA etc etc. At this point in time I'm taking the Gregg Zaun approach and feel like there are only 6 untouchables on the roster Bautista, EE, Rasmus, Dickey, Lind and I forget his last untouchable but for me it'd be Jannsen.

If you can get anything of value for anyone else, MAKE THE EFFING DEAL!