Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on release

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Did the buck stop there when OG was involved? Since his name was mentioned in this thread for no reason.

I brought it up as a joke. I’m pretty sure OG got flamed for last year and the buck did stop there. It was his job. Now it’s czars. But like jsolo said it’s probably an internal battle between modes to bring help or not. Too simple of a concept to not have in on purpose. But again, fixing drop coverage could be a solution to accommodate offline players at least. Actually that would help the online players to have an option as well to protect against the roll man as well. That shouldn’t effect H2H.

[alabamarob]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

1. None of my comments are aimed at Czar.

2.. When something is available in an early version of the game, on early systems and not in the game its not excusable on a technical level. You can’t have it both ways and say “wait until we get this new console that can do things we couldn’t do last gen” and then turn around and say the system won’t allow it.

3. When a feature is in 2k22, and then it is removed or doesn’t work anymore then that is not excusable on a technical level.

One does not need to be a rocket scientist or a game designer to simply ask for things to not be taken out of a game.

At the end of the day you can’t sell something to someone, take their money, and then get mad at that them when a feature of the product stops working. We all have to be fairer with our commentary. No one is perfect, and sometimes things we do are not satisfactory. Defense today is not satisfactory, and that is not the consumer or the complainers fault. The fault lies at the person providing the service that they were paid to provide.

A lot of us work in specialized fields, that require privileged or expert knowledge. That doesn’t give us a license to provide a bad product, and then say its to technical for our customer to understand. It’s like a foot doctor killing 10 patients in a row, and then saying none of you have ever removed a toenail before so don’t question me.

[alabamarob]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I brought it up as a joke. I’m pretty sure OG got flamed for last year and the buck did stop there. It was his job. Now it’s czars. But like jsolo said it’s probably an internal battle between modes to bring help or not. Too simple of a concept to not have in on purpose. But again, fixing drop coverage could be a solution to accommodate offline players at least. That shouldn’t effect H2H.

I am not sure that any of the hedge settings work right. Additionally, when I switch from shrink the floor to neutral to auto on the defensive settings menu I don’t see any difference. I am starting to believe less then 20 percent of any of the defensive settings even work. At all. Maybe double team, and no help.

[jeebs9]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I am not sure that any of the hedge settings work right. Additionally, when I switch from shrink the floor to neutral to auto on the defensive settings menu I don’t see any difference. I am starting to believe less then 20 percent of any of the defensive settings even work. At all. Maybe double team, and no help.

I got to agree here. I've been making changing and nothing happens. I remember this in 20 and 21.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I am not sure that any of the hedge settings work right. Additionally, when I switch from shrink the floor to neutral to auto on the defensive settings menu I don’t see any difference. I am starting to believe less then 20 percent of any of the defensive settings even work. At all. Maybe double team, and no help.

Ya I just edited my post. If they can’t add the tag then the defensive settings have to work for everyone. Plus fixing drop coverage gives everyone a solution without having to send the help. Offline and online. But offline they would have to add it to ACE and the cpu’s gameplan majority of time. The problem there though is it would also eliminate the drive and kick game and randomness of coverages and hitting open players. That could get boring.

But ya fix the settings for sure so you can scheme however you want. But for me playing against cpu I need that tag and X out along with drop coverage. Lol Just trying to brainstorm some ideas to fix for everyone… Trying to find a happy median and solution that appeases everyone ???

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I mean, we've had a clear running commentary on what happened here. Don't think we need to make it more complicated than what it is.

We all agree (now) that P&R was where it should be pre 'fix' right?

So this wasn't "Czar neglecting P&R defense two years in a row" was it? Think that's a bit unfair.

Czar responded to community feedback with an adjustment...there's two videos with his logic behind the fix...and possible issues...none of them were a drop in help defense.

Whether you think this was an oversight, or malicious intent to change the product and ruin Play Now games is up to you. Either way, we can agree it needs to be fixed.

I didn't hear Czar mention anything about having to wait until next year to fix it (Keep me honest here) His last interaction on Twitter was mentioning he'd look into it.

Now you are well within your right to say "I don't care about any of that, just fix the game"

but all we can do now is give our feedback and wait...

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[rudyjuly2]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

We all agree (now) that P&R was where it should be pre 'fix' right?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

I wouldn’t say that either. On ball defenders went under 100% of the time and warped to prevent drives to the rim. It was functional in that you couldn’t exploit PNR. But it wasn’t a proper solution. I would welcome that back over what we have now but I would prefer them adding drop coverage and better help.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I mean, we've had a clear running commentary on what happened here. Don't think we need to make it more complicated than what it is.

We all agree (now) that P&R was where it should be pre 'fix' right?

So this wasn't "Czar neglecting P&R defense two years in a row" was it? Think that's a bit unfair.

Czar responded to community feedback with an adjustment...there's two videos with his logic behind the fix...and possible issues...none of them were a drop in help defense.

Whether you think this was an oversight, or malicious intent to change the product and ruin Play Now games is up to you. Either way, we can agree it needs to be fixed.

I didn't hear Czar mention anything about having to wait until next year to fix it (Keep me honest here) His last interaction on Twitter was mentioning he'd look into it.

Now you are well within your right to say "I don't care about any of that, just fix the game"

but all we can do now is give our feedback and wait...

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

No, I’m not sure it (The PNR D) was ever properly executed pre fix. Unfortunately I was editing more than playing the game before. So I can’t say with 100% certainty.

I have not seen any interaction or videos of czar talking about this. So maybe if someone can post and point me in the direction to see that on here that would be great. You might know more than most if you have seen interactions i or others haven’t.

That’s all I’m personally trying to do is give feedback, point out what’s working and isn’t and what SHOULD be happening, and brainstorm possible fixes or solutions they could use to appease everyone.

The problems I was seeing are multiple things. Then add like Rob said the d settings not working. So there is a lot to fix at this point and not just 1 thing so it’s concerning.

I mean I’ve been a coach for 25 years and ran the defense at our University. I literally gameplanned defensive schemes to stop opponents offenses game to game and how we would defend against how teams would play PNR’s and different sets. So I know a little bit here on this topic… lol

None of us know why. We can only speculate. I think it will get fixed at some point though for sure. Hopefully this thread helps with the discussion of the issues.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I wouldn’t say that either. On ball defenders went under 100% of the time and warped to prevent drives to the rim. It was functional in that you couldn’t exploit PNR. But it wasn’t a proper solution. I would welcome that back over what we have now but I would prefer them adding drop coverage and better help.

No, I’m not sure it (The PNR D) was ever properly executed pre fix. Unfortunately I was editing more than playing the game before. So I can’t say with 100% certainty.

I have not seen any interaction or videos of czar talking about this. So maybe if someone can post and point me in the direction to see that on here that would be great. You might know more than most if you have seen interactions i or others haven’t.

That’s all I’m personally trying to do is give feedback, point out what’s working and isn’t and what SHOULD be happening, and brainstorm possible fixes or solutions they could use to appease everyone.

The problems I was seeing are multiple things. Then add like Rob said the d settings not working. So there is a lot to fix at this point and not just 1 thing so it’s concerning.

I mean I’ve been a coach for 25 years and ran the defense at our University. I literally gameplanned defensive schemes to stop opponents offenses game to game and how we would defend against how teams would play PNR’s and different sets. So I know a little bit here on this topic… lol

None of us know why. We can only speculate. I think it will get fixed at some point though for sure. Hopefully this thread helps with the discussion of the issues.

To clarify, it wasnt as exploitable- which seems to be the focus now....Supposedly blowing out the CPU by 50 on HOF etc. etc.

As far as seamless P&R coverage.. I'm not sure we've gotten it in 2K yet but that's another topic altogether. I know that you know your stuff vann.

Czars videos on the changes:

https://youtu.be/XESM3kDlFtw

https://youtu.be/TUWonrvrhqw

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[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

To clarify, it wasnt as exploitable- which seems to be the focus now....Supposedly blowing out the CPU by 50 on HOF etc. etc.

As far as seamless P&R coverage.. I'm not sure we've gotten it in 2K yet but that's another topic altogether. I know that you know your stuff vann.

Czars videos on the changes:

https://youtu.be/XESM3kDlFtw

https://youtu.be/TUWonrvrhqw

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

Not as exploitable I agree with yes.

Thanks for posting those i’m gonna go take a look now. Should be good for everyone to see and hear 1st hand.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

To clarify, it wasnt as exploitable- which seems to be the focus now....Supposedly blowing out the CPU by 50 on HOF etc. etc.

As far as seamless P&R coverage.. I'm not sure we've gotten it in 2K yet but that's another topic altogether. I know that you know your stuff vann.

Czars videos on the changes:

https://youtu.be/XESM3kDlFtw

https://youtu.be/TUWonrvrhqw

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

So the 1st video confirmed this change was made for comp guys as well as there is no separate tech to separate the 2 modes. Earv touched on this earlier in this thread. So this might not be fixed til 2k23 unless they patched that in this year is what I’m taking from that video. Unfortunately, in this video he says this is if you run 5 out. But almost every PNR is 5 out with 3 spot up guys.

My question is, is it just supposed to be like this on Pick and slips or is he considering a roll a slip and cut? But assuming the same logic would apply to what he’s saying which is the problem for the comp crowd. But this is also why I say the scramble logic and rotations is crucial. That’s real basketball is making reads. Reading the help and hitting the backside lift. That’s why it would be nice to have mixed coverages play to play because I can see how it can also be exploitable if we see the same coverage and help every possession. The reverse happened though when they made this change. So the comp guys have no shooters open but we have wide open lanes and rolls for easy buckets. It seems as is it’s 1 or the other and no happy median.

Either way that video is discouraging as far as 2k22 goes and getting a fix that isn’t a band aid fix until next year. I haven’t watched the 2nd one yet.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

To clarify, it wasnt as exploitable- which seems to be the focus now....Supposedly blowing out the CPU by 50 on HOF etc. etc.

As far as seamless P&R coverage.. I'm not sure we've gotten it in 2K yet but that's another topic altogether. I know that you know your stuff vann.

Czars videos on the changes:

https://youtu.be/XESM3kDlFtw

https://youtu.be/TUWonrvrhqw

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

The 2nd video was great and everyone should watch it if you haven’t already. I always thought it would be that complex as far as programming 100 situations of where the ball is, etc. plus having to account for all the variables. But he also did say multiple times for the comp crowd. Your programming a cpu like a coach programs players brains. Lol

I get all of that. The problem we are having though right now is just basic pnr’s. No non basketball stuff. No cuts, drives, etc. Just 3 spot up guys and a simple PNR with a backside lift. No more no less. That’s the basic number 1 thing. That shouldn’t have to account for as many variables. When you start talking cutting, X’s & O’s, driving, etc. If that was all happening then I can see all of the issues that can arise.

I agree with his point though of never leave shooters doesn’t mean you abandon team help d. And it was encouraging that he mentioned run off the line as that will probably be added down the road. But he did say the scramble or rotation tech wasn’t in the game for proper closeouts. But still encouraging it’s on the radar for the future. In real basketball you don’t think teams want to stop Steph Curry when off ball. But they for a split second lose him by looking or stunting at the ball and by then it’s too late. But in a video game it leaves no help and creates holes and issues. But that’s the users fault in that situation at that point. That’s the coaching choice they made. Need to pick your poison.

This video did also confirm a few defensive settings are turned off though hence why they are not working properly. Specifically the don’t leave shooters.

Great share! Thanks!

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

The priority for 23 IMO is to get rid of the menus. Throw it all out. Only provide options that work.

Among the options players get that work should be where help comes from and when it comes.


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[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

The priority for 23 IMO is to get rid of the menus. Throw it all out. Only provide options that work.

Among the options players get that work should be where help comes from and when it comes.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

I wish we could have logged how many hours ARob spent in settings and timeouts adjusting everything that never even worked. What’s the over/under?

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I wish we could have logged how many hours ARob spent in settings and timeouts adjusting everything that never even worked. What’s the over/under?

Thing is I went back through some old videos and found I’d recorded the tag the roller setting in 2k17 was working. That isn’t even in this game.