Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on release

[strosdood]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Played a few games last night and before adjusting any slider the PNR D was really bad, the roll man was automatic almost every time…… but with tweaks it made a huge difference for me, mainly the defensive awareness and on ball D sliders……. What else are u guys adjusting? Does anyone switch to the CPU team before games and make switch adjustments?


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[The 24th Letter]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I just went on Twitter (24’s earlier recommendation) to czars page to see what was going on there. I went into 1 of the comments on a czar post (did I just say that out loud? Lol) and wow!



I saw like 10-15 comments of rec guys or my players (I don’t even know what they are called or mode they play?) talking about and asking for no corner help, why is help coming, stop help from coming, etc.



Then I saw other comments about how hard it is to get past the cpu. Bigs are too fast.



I mean that’s the feedback. Those were the changes that were made specifically in the latest patch.



The pull from all directions & struggle is real. Lol



So now we have a battle going on with the other side of the coin. It will be interesting to see how 2k handles this and appeases both communities. Especially if you can’t bring the help back then you will need to bring back the tougher on ball d that was also complained about. I mean someone will never be happy regardless. At what point does 2k stick to their guns and vision of how the game should be played. I think most here want a simulation of real basketball options and play with a difficulty attached to it. Is that feasible nowadays unless they create 2 separate experiences for both crowds so they can change each accordingly? I almost miss the days of the game I bought on release was what I got all year. On the flip side of that I remember game breaking bugs that would kill a game until the next year. So it’s a catch 22 for me.



At this point the question is who do you listen to? Who’s giving the feedback that I trust? Or is it who’s higher on the totem pole? I get we are in the minority here and I’m sure especially czar wants real basketball concepts in as he’s a sim guy but I can’t help but think there is this inner push/pull fight going on and we are losing currently. But this fight ain’t over boys! The season hasn’t even started yet. Lol

No, no, no I would never purposely subject you to the cesspool that is Twitters comment section haha. Czar's been around long enough to understand the fickle nature of the community though- they'll love you one minute, hate you the next- even #simnation. What you saw was probably a GOOD day in his feed, lol.

It's definitely a struggle, but even though it may not feel like it sometimes, There are always eyes. Kindve like the camera issue this year, I'll wade through the monologues and keep the core issue on the forefront.I know we all just want a good game of basketball at the end of the day. The fight continues!

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[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Great points in the last few pages. And lots of lol! I get it all I do. I’m a realist but it doesn’t mean I’m gonna give up. This was by far the best playing 2k game I’ve played after editing it IMO. To me this is the 1 thing that can’t be edited or changed though and is ruining the great game it was for me and my experience. Although maybe I’m more optimistic then most that it will be fixed. I can’t imagine they do again what they did last year and so early in this cycle?!

Arob - I wasn’t trying to give anyone a copout. I said it earlier that if the settings and sliders worked then it’s a different story. They purposely made the move to turn it completely off though. I also said that corner help is a user decision. They can choose to stay home and give up cutters and rolls. That’s the risk/reward of doing so. The reverse is also the risk/reward in helping and giving up the 3. That should be the users option and them having the ability to do so. That’s simple as no need to run to Twitter and message czar about it as they can change it themselves. Seems like a simple thing.

However, in czars video it’s turned off because even with it on help d will still come and I don’t think it’s in to separate no help coming even with it off? He was saying the tech and AI isn’t where it needed to be so the AI doesn’t know who is a user (and not playing properly) so it goes and helps regardless of settings. Here in lies the issue. It was causing problems for the comp guys who were baiting the cutter like Earv said earlier. So their decision directly effected us. So it’s a game design problem they haven’t figured out or fixed yet.

I agree with you though. It should be as simple as turn help on and leave man on or off. Not to mention if the sliders they gave us could help mitigate it and actually worked for more or less help. Im not trying to give a cop out and I’ve been pretty vocal in here but I’m just repeating the issue czar stated was happening and why.

24 - Lol! Ya I just wanted to see the back n forth going on and open dialogue that you said was happening. I’m not sure why devs get on Twitter for feedback? If I was a dev I’d be here (I am sure they are lurking though). Props to czar for interacting there. I’m sure he gets more pno feedback there than here. But it was interesting to see the other side and give some insight to what’s going on with their complaints along with the videos you posted yesterday.

That’s all why I said it will be interesting to see how this is addressed. I’m just plugging away on my roster and playbooks in the meantime hoping that when I’m done this all works so I can play some sim basketball and all that work is all for not. Because I have had some great cpu AI games that is beautiful at times. Fingers crossed!

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Played a few games last night and before adjusting any slider the PNR D was really bad, the roll man was automatic almost every time…… but with tweaks it made a huge difference for me, mainly the defensive awareness and on ball D sliders……. What else are u guys adjusting? Does anyone switch to the CPU team before games and make switch adjustments?


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So I have tried everything. I even tested every player at help d iq to 99 to see what would happen. Put d awareness at 100, tried 1 and 100 for cpu help, jacked up all cpu d to 100, etc. it’s slightly better but doesn’t fix anything. Plus it never tags the roll man. It’s coded to not do that currently. That’s my earlier posts though as I was seeing tons of help and rotations but it’s all wrong. And it all starts and centers around the no tag. Add to that the centers awareness to pick up and help on the pnr. I’m sure I could up lateral quickness for centers and perimeter d but then 2k will fix the issue and I’ll have to go change it again. Plus it still doesn’t help the bad PNR defense logic with help and rotations. They have to fix it internally.

[strosdood]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

So I have tried everything. I even tested every player at help d iq to 99 to see what would happen. Put d awareness at 100, tried 1 and 100 for cpu help, jacked up all cpu d to 100, etc. it’s slightly better but doesn’t fix anything. Plus it never tags the roll man. It’s coded to not do that currently. That’s my earlier posts though as I was seeing tons of help and rotations but it’s all wrong. And it all starts and centers around the no tag. Add to that the centers awareness to pick up and help on the pnr. I’m sure I could up lateral quickness for centers and perimeter d but then 2k will fix the issue and I’ll have to go change it again. Plus it still doesn’t help the bad PNR defense logic with help and rotations. They have to fix it internally.

I’m always conflicted with How often should the pick n roll work? Czar has said before it’s hard to defend in the game because it’s hard to defend IRL, I guess it’s about how it plays out……. Like you’ve said a tag guy would help immensely but then there would be open 3’s so it’s a hard balance for 2K I’m sure…… one of Czars videos I watched this morning though kind of sounded like they knew this was gonna happen but they did it anyways to appease the online crowd and that’s BS


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[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I’m always conflicted with How often should the pick n roll work? Czar has said before it’s hard to defend in the game because it’s hard to defend IRL, I guess it’s about how it plays out……. Like you’ve said a tag guy would help immensely but then there would be open 3’s so it’s a hard balance for 2K I’m sure…… one of Czars videos I watched this morning though kind of sounded like they knew this was gonna happen but they did it anyways to appease the online crowd and that’s BS


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Ya, and that’s the other issue is scramble logic. It’s great out of doubles but doesn’t match that in PNR’s. In the pnr it’s tough to defend irl. You need to scheme it and send help with personnel in mind. But that AI isn’t in yet either. Add to that he mentioned either is the closeouts and run player off line. So we can’t get real PNR defense yet until it’s all in. But I don’t get why we can’t up the rotation speed slightly for balance? Like I said the d awareness slider was helping off doubles faster and smarter in their reactions to scramble to the open man. Too high and they would get there to fast and unrealistically so it was a balancing act because we still want the extra passes and 1 more passes in the game.

But ya that’s why teams run it you have to pick your poison. If ran properly it will always give up something. Irl we teach our point to read the tag and our corners to lift so if we make that throwback pass it’s a longer closeout for the defender to recover. It’s another reason drop coverage is so popular now as well as ICE on the wings. Analytics say make them beat us from mid range and less rotations. I think part of the problem is reaction speeds of players recognizing to help and then recover. The agility of players. In the last update you could feel and see it was better and an improvement. Now if they could balance that with a tag and faster closeouts we might have something. The pass speed with bullets is tough too. But that’s another issue but directly effects how fast the defense can get their tied into the speed at which the ball speed travels at currently. But that’s another catch 22 because it’s infuriating to make the right read and it’s a slow pass or a inaccurate one and the defense recovers. Lol

Maybe we just need a defensive setting specifically for tag the roller. Then have help no help settings that work. So if I say tag the roller & select stay home on Klay Thompson In the weak side corner then the tag HAS to come from the strong side corner. We selected it to be that way. If Klay is in the strong side corner the tag will happen from the weak side. That works for online guys. But that has to be programmed in for the cpu AI and ACE as well.

As far as him saying the fix was for online that was discouraging for sure!

[strosdood]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Ya, and that’s the other issue is scramble logic. It’s great out of doubles but doesn’t match that in PNR’s. In the pnr it’s tough to defend irl. You need to scheme it and send help with personnel in mind. But that AI isn’t in yet either. Add to that he mentioned either is the closeouts and run player off line. So we can’t get real PNR defense yet until it’s all in. But I don’t get why we can’t up the rotation speed slightly for balance? Like I said the d awareness slider was helping off doubles faster and smarter in their reactions to scramble to the open man. Too high and they would get there to fast and unrealistically so it was a balancing act because we still want the extra passes and 1 more passes in the game.

But ya that’s why teams run it you have to pick your poison. If ran properly it will always give up something. Irl we teach our point to read the tag and our corners to lift so if we make that throwback pass it’s a longer closeout for the defender to recover. It’s another reason drop coverage is so popular now as well as ICE on the wings. Analytics say make them beat us from mid range and less rotations. I think part of the problem is reaction speeds of players recognizing to help and then recover. The agility of players. In the last update you could feel and see it was better and an improvement. Now if they could balance that with a tag and faster closeouts we might have something. The pass speed with bullets is tough too. But that’s another issue but directly effects how fast the defense can get their tied into the speed at which the ball speed travels at currently. But that’s another catch 22 because it’s infuriating to make the right read and it’s a slow pass or a inaccurate one and the defense recovers. Lol

Maybe we just need a defensive setting specifically for tag the roller. Then have help no help settings that work. So if I say tag the roller & select stay home on Klay Thompson In the weak side corner then the tag HAS to come from the strong side corner. We selected it to be that way. If Klay is in the strong side corner the tag will happen from the weak side. That works for online guys. But that has to be programmed in for the cpu AI and ACE as well.

As far as him saying the fix was for online that was discouraging for sure!

Do u have a slider set you’re using? Just curious what other knowledgeable basketball guys use


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[alabamarob]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Pnr defense is all about percentages. You try to creat the lowest percentage shot by helping off the non shooter, or by surprising the offense with different looks.

If you run the same defense versus CP3 or Johns Stockton in the pnr then you are going to give up a good look everytime. It’s the reason why corner 3’s and the ability to generate corner 3’s is so important.

Trying to mix up your coverages and to send the help from different spots is what is fun about basketball to me. Making it a 2 vs 2 game is monotony.

This is why I have always been an advocate of people who play offball defense. It brings variety, and thinking to the game. When you are always guarding the ball, and you can guarantee a certain shot on offense that is not very realistic. I have never been big on the man to man 1 v 1 batttle that a lot of people love. I always look at basketball as a 5 v 5 game, and there is nothing better then trying to beat great team defense with passing and spacing.

[jk31]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I’m always conflicted with How often should the pick n roll work? Czar has said before it’s hard to defend in the game because it’s hard to defend IRL, I guess it’s about how it plays out……. Like you’ve said a tag guy would help immensely but then there would be open 3’s so it’s a hard balance for 2K I’m sure…… one of Czars videos I watched this morning though kind of sounded like they knew this was gonna happen but they did it anyways to appease the online crowd and that’s BS


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but. thats exactly what basketball is about. you cannot stop everything. you have to decide: which Option will you allow your opponent to take? do you give him the roll in hope of stopping him some how There or do you give him the corner 3 in hope of him being less effizient than with the roll? thats where defensive gameplan/settings should come into Play. you can decide what your players should do in These Situations. and their def. ratings should decide how Well they execute it.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Pnr defense is all about percentages. You try to creat the lowest percentage shot by helping off the non shooter, or by surprising the offense with different looks.

If you run the same defense versus CP3 or Johns Stockton in the pnr then you are going to give up a good look everytime. It’s the reason why corner 3’s and the ability to generate corner 3’s is so important.

Trying to mix up your coverages and to send the help from different spots is what is fun about basketball to me. Making it a 2 vs 2 game is monotony.

This is why I have always been an advocate of people who play offball defense. It brings variety, and thinking to the game. When you are always guarding the ball, and you can guarantee a certain shot on offense that is not very realistic. I have never been big on the man to man 1 v 1 batttle that a lot of people love. I always look at basketball as a 5 v 5 game, and there is nothing better then trying to beat great team defense with passing and spacing.

Great post! I agree 1000% and will add this is why I love the rotations and extra passes that we need more of for good ball movement to create the open corner 3 out of the D’s rotations. That’s basketball!

This reminds me of playing in our league back in 13 or 14 and can’t remember the nets owners name but he schemed me and would leave Ron artest open all game to double Pau or Kobe. He got me the 1st time so I adjusted the 2nd game and got him. I had to get Artest shots in his hot zone and sub him out with a shooter so he couldn’t leave as much or he paid for it. It was a chess match and I loved it! I also agree and was always an advocate for off ball d. It’s 5 on 5 and a chess match. That’s the fun part! Adjusting and adapting on the fly. That’s why from a cpu standpoint I want variety of coverages play to play rather than timeout to timeout.

[jk31]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Ya, and that’s the other issue is scramble logic. It’s great out of doubles but doesn’t match that in PNR’s. In the pnr it’s tough to defend irl. You need to scheme it and send help with personnel in mind. But that AI isn’t in yet either. Add to that he mentioned either is the closeouts and run player off line. So we can’t get real PNR defense yet until it’s all in. But I don’t get why we can’t up the rotation speed slightly for balance? Like I said the d awareness slider was helping off doubles faster and smarter in their reactions to scramble to the open man. Too high and they would get there to fast and unrealistically so it was a balancing act because we still want the extra passes and 1 more passes in the game.

But ya that’s why teams run it you have to pick your poison. If ran properly it will always give up something. Irl we teach our point to read the tag and our corners to lift so if we make that throwback pass it’s a longer closeout for the defender to recover. It’s another reason drop coverage is so popular now as well as ICE on the wings. Analytics say make them beat us from mid range and less rotations. I think part of the problem is reaction speeds of players recognizing to help and then recover. The agility of players. In the last update you could feel and see it was better and an improvement. Now if they could balance that with a tag and faster closeouts we might have something. The pass speed with bullets is tough too. But that’s another issue but directly effects how fast the defense can get their tied into the speed at which the ball speed travels at currently. But that’s another catch 22 because it’s infuriating to make the right read and it’s a slow pass or a inaccurate one and the defense recovers. Lol

Maybe we just need a defensive setting specifically for tag the roller. Then have help no help settings that work. So if I say tag the roller & select stay home on Klay Thompson In the weak side corner then the tag HAS to come from the strong side corner. We selected it to be that way. If Klay is in the strong side corner the tag will happen from the weak side. That works for online guys. But that has to be programmed in for the cpu AI and ACE as well.

As far as him saying the fix was for online that was discouraging for sure!

wait... didnt we have "Tag on roll" -> "yes" /"no"defensive setting a Few years back?

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

wait... didnt we have "Tag on roll" -> "yes" /"no"defensive setting a Few years back?

I’m not sure we ever did? Did we? The last 3 years I bought the game but shelved them all pretty fast so never dove that deep as I have like this year. So idk? Maybe someone else can chime in…

I posted this in another post but thought I’d separate it here.

Maybe we just need a defensive setting specifically for tag the roller. Then have help no help settings that work. So if I say tag the roller & select stay home on Klay Thompson In the weak side corner then the tag HAS to come from the strong side corner. We selected it to be that way. If Klay is in the strong side corner the tag will happen from the weak side. That works for online guys. But that has to be programmed in for the cpu AI and ACE as well.

[jk31]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Great post! I agree 1000% and will add this is why I love the rotations and extra passes that we need more of for good ball movement to create the open corner 3 out of the D’s rotations. That’s basketball!

This reminds me of playing in our league back in 13 or 14 and can’t remember the nets owners name but he schemed me and would leave Ron artest open all game to double Pau or Kobe. He got me the 1st time so I adjusted the 2nd game and got him. I had to get Artest shots in his hot zone and sub him out with a shooter so he couldn’t leave as much or he paid for it. It was a chess match and I loved it! I also agree and was always an advocate for off ball d. It’s 5 on 5 and a chess match. That’s the fun part! Adjusting and adapting on the fly. That’s why from a cpu standpoint I want variety of coverages play to play rather than timeout to timeout.

this exactly is the (please excuse this stupid phrase) "skill gap" in this game. Not "who is able to do. the better cheese dribble moves" or. "who is able to Green more shots" but "who is able to make smarter decisions". this alone is enough of a skill gap to separate between Good and Bad players.

[jfsolo]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

this exactly is the (please excuse this stupid phrase) "skill gap" in this game. Not "who is able to do. the better cheese dribble moves" or. "who is able to Green more shots" but "who is able to make smarter decisions". this alone is enough of a skill gap to separate between Good and Bad players.

Unfortunately the online majority has made B-ball IQ something to be marginalized in the implementation and tuning of the gameplay mechanics.

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[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

wait... didnt we have "Tag on roll" -> "yes" /"no"defensive setting a Few years back?

Yep I’ve still got my videos from 2k17 showing it worked.