Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on release

[strosdood]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ofx3X0Wqa3c" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is so sloppy I couldn’t even follow what was going on lol the ball was getting chunked all over the place at random……


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[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

haha. I don't know any more.

https://<iframe width="560" height="...reen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6wad80xp9M

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

haha. I don't know any more.

https://<iframe width="560" height="...reen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6wad80xp9M

That was really good. Wonder if it was because you were in the corner and there is no ball side corner to worry about staying or helping. If you are near the top the cpu gets more confused. 5 out PNR hurts it bad there.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

That was really good. Wonder if it was because you were in the corner and there is no ball side corner to worry about staying or helping. If you are near the top the cpu gets more confused. 5 out PNR hurts it bad there.

Not sure, but I was finding spamming Pnr from the wing was much easier than from the top. Never really tried it from the corner before this time.

[amioran]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

I guess it also helps that real defenders can time help based on the ball handlers blind spots; blind spots that 2k players don't have.

Blind spots could be easily simulated by drastically reducing passing accuracy (maybe even speed) when the ball is passed on out of sight targets. All engines have easy ways to actually determine "blind sides" of objects (as in this instance a player) as such a system is used plenty on many genres (as for example stealth games), so it is not a difficult thing to implement. Doing such a thing would also simulate higher guards (as Doncic) being better able to make passes than smaller guards are since they have the possibility to look above their opponents most of the time.

[49UNCFan]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

haha. I don't know any more.

https://<iframe width="560" height="...reen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6wad80xp9M

Why can't we have this 80% of the time

[Antonioshellz]

Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on release

Why can't we have this 80% of the time

Because the Competitive online crowd doesn’t want to give up that corner three haha. If the defensive settings worked then we could all be happy


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[jfsolo]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Because the Competitive online crowd doesn’t want to give up that corner three haha.


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Tuning the game to appease that group is really, really hurting the basketball authenticity all across the board.

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[The 24th Letter]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Blind spots could be easily simulated by drastically reducing passing accuracy (maybe even speed) when the ball is passed on out of sight targets. All engines have easy ways to actually determine "blind sides" of objects (as in this instance a player) as such a system is used plenty on many genres (as for example stealth games), so it is not a difficult thing to implement. Doing such a thing would also simulate higher guards (as Doncic) being better able to make passes than smaller guards are since they have the possibility to look above their opponents most of the time.

IMO, Stealth/shooting games use of sight/ depth of field isn't anywhere close enough of a precedent to call this implementation "easy" How many one on one situations have we seen in stealth games where the user manipulates a guards radius making him look inept?

10 players moving around a court is an entirely different situation. My money would be on us pulling our hair out the first 2-3 years of even trying to implement

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[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

haha. I don't know any more.

https://<iframe width="560" height="...reen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6wad80xp9M

Don’t do this Dirk. Lol

So this is what i’d like to see here. Initial help is there but have the wing defender drop to play the corner pass creating the 1 more pass to the wing for 3 instead with the helper sprinting to the close out on the wing 3 by X’ing out. The wing just stays attached and doesn’t move so it’s a easy pass and shot rather than a pass, pass, shot. That would help eliminate the complaints too from to many easy corner 3’s that register as Wide Open. Plus it gives more time to scramble for the 2nd pass so they would all be highly or slightly contested shots depending if you made the extra pass or not. So it would eliminate the roll man, the drive, and the easy corner 3’s. That 1 thing could fix the 3 main issues right now with both communities.

I actually had that happen a few times and it felt so good and rewarding when it did as that’s basketball. I posted about how it happened twice for me. I’d rather have that pass have to go from wing to corner though to simulate what happens most often irl. With wing dropping to sag and play 2. Then he plays the 1st pass out as it opens the wing pass with a closeout from the tag player back out to the corner. But I wouldn’t be that picky this year.

Right now this video shows the problem if the help comes for the online guys with the lack of scrambling behind it if the help does come. I hate to be a broken record but it’s the scramble logic that needs work but again it works great with out of double teams so I feel it’s in the game somewhere just not on the PNR’s for some reason. Currently it’s either black or white. If we get a tag we give up wide open corner 3’s and if they don’t tag it’s wide open roll or lay-up’s. With a scramble behind the tag or no tag there is more real basketball and extra passes needed where playing smart basketball should be more rewarding than just the simple drive and kick wide open jumpers that are just way too easy right now if help does come.

[amioran]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

IMO, Stealth/shooting games use of sight/ depth of field isn't anywhere close enough of a precedent to call this implementation "easy" How many one on one situations have we seen in stealth games where the user manipulates a guards radius making him look inept?

Maybe this was true in the past (as at the time of Thief) but nowadays that's only because the devs intentionally dumb down the recognition, elsewhere the vast majority of the user base would not find the game fun (especially nowadays the vast majority of the user base just wants to win, or pass a couple of hours having fun, they don't play games to have a challenge). They purposefully put in place limitations to the detection radius, range and ability that the various NPC have so as to turn the game much more casual and hence appealing to a larger audience. If devs wanted they could easily make NPCs in todays games behave exactly as a person does in real life (as it actually takes more resources to dumb down those NPCs than making them behave at the fullest of their capabilities).

There's a reason as to why, for example, you find better AI in a game like FEAR than a modern shooter, it's not because the engines nowadays have lesser capabilities (in fact totally the contrary, they are much more advanced - in the past it took a lot of resources to check for line of sight, for example, nowadays modern CPUs can cast hundreds of line of sight checks without even a pause), it is because devs dumb down the AI purposefully to make it act stupid (and they spend a lot of time to try to make the AI behave not so realistically as to being not fun, but not so idiotic as being too easy - albeit they most often tend on the latter direction).

10 players moving around a court is an entirely different situation. My money would be on us pulling our hair out the first 2-3 years of even trying to implement

It's not a different situation, because the system relies on line of sight (usually done by casting an area array - to simulate field of view - from eyes' height) to check for amount of obstruction. Even if there are 10 players moving only 1 has the ball and only 1 has to make that pass (and anyway modern CPUs are so powerful that you could even continuously cast line of sight checks for all 10 players on the floor and your PC/Console wouldn't even notice; in fact probably 2K already does that for certain circumstances). In real life line of sight applies in the same exact way, there's absolutely no difference.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Maybe this was true in the past (as at the time of Thief) but nowadays that's only because the devs intentionally dumb down the recognition, elsewhere the vast majority of the user base would not find the game fun (especially nowadays the vast majority of the user base just wants to win, or pass a couple of hours having fun, they don't play games to have a challenge). They purposefully put in place limitations to the detection radius, range and ability that the various NPC have so as to turn the game much more casual and hence appealing to a larger audience. If devs wanted they could easily make NPCs in such games behave exactly as a person in real life (as it actually takes more resources to dumb down those NPCs than making them behave at the fullest of their capabilities).

There's a reason as to why, for example, you find better AI in a game like FEAR than a modern shooter, it's not because the engines nowadays have lesser capabilities (in fact totally the contrary, they are much more advanced - in the past it took a lot of resources to check for line of sight, for example, nowadays modern CPUs can cast hundreds of line of sight checks without even a pause), it is because devs dumb down the AI purposefully to make it act stupid (and they spend a lot of time to try to make the AI behave so idiotically).



It's not a different situation, because the system relies on line of sight (usually done by casting an area array, as a circle, from the eye's height) to check for line of sight obstruction. Even if there are 10 players moving only 1 has the ball and only 1 has to make that pass. In real life line of sight applies in the same exact way, there's absolutely no difference.

This is a very good point and one that I think also applies to my previous post. Im just piggybacking off your post.

I think that’s part of the problem (speaking on a separate issue with PNR defense) is 2k dumbs the cpu defense down for the casuals. That’s why the rotations or scrambles aren’t there. The casuals just want drive and kick for a open shot or easy PNR’s.

That’s why it’s so important the logic is at least in the game and the help defense team sliders, help d iq player attributes, and defensive awareness sliders can help us get the players to rotate to our liking and not just little Timmy.

[EarvGotti]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Is anyone able to create true "Drop" PnR defense this year? Even when I put my settings to "No Hedge", the hedge man still plays too tight/high and gets blown by if I don't control him. Is there any way to avoid this?

[el jimmy]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Is anyone able to create true "Drop" PnR defense this year? Even when I put my settings to "No Hedge", the hedge man still plays too tight/high and gets blown by if I don't control him. Is there any way to avoid this?

Unfortunately not. The settings don't seem to work. I resort to quickly tapping A or X (on PS4/5) to manually change players and drop on the roll man.

Unless you mean editing cpu defence? Then in that case also no, it doesn't work and the help d, cutter help was removed in a patch so the pnr is very easy to exploit.

[jeebs9]

Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

Unfortunately not. The settings don't seem to work. I resort to quickly tapping A or X (on PS4/5) to manually change players and drop on the roll man.

Unless you mean editing cpu defence? Then in that case also no, it doesn't work and the help d, cutter help was removed in a patch so the pnr is very easy to exploit.

Yup there is just too much manual work to make it actually work.