Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

O and btw I only use the Home Teams, Wizards, Orioles, Nationals, Redskins, and Caps! No Ravens because their the browns!

[Nokstar]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I havnt read through the entire thread but i think the whole concept of forcing yourself to play "sim" is silly. I understand that some of the nba games of recent past are flawed in the sense alot of unrealistic strategies are needed to won, but you should never force yourself to play a sim way and purposely ignore whats there to win.

I havnt played a nba game at the rate ive wanted to because like i said, they DO have flaws that pertain to unrealistic gameplay and ive waited patiently for a nba game to reward realistic gameplay so i wouldnt have to pretend and play a certain way just to make it LOOK realistic.

Think about this...in REAL life basketball...the concept is to win...the goal is to win...and thats the way its supposed to be in videogames as well. The fun will come along with it. Maybe this year the game will reward real strategic basketball play so we dont have to "play house" and worry if somebody is playing sim.

[SpSoloSr]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

to answer your first post, I have already explained to you why that would not happen... Either you can't comprehend what ON Ball Defense means, or you can't comprehend me. No one is saying just let guys go by you, all the way to the bucket, switch men, but you are still the person bringing the help, you are still the one guarding the ball..... understand?

your other points are pretty obvious, it's up to the defender to stop your go to players, and to defend the post, the three point shooters, send doubles to take the ball out of certain players hands.... those things are a given, and have nothing to do with on ball defending....

I think I'm starting to see where you're gettin at now, at least when it comes to the On-Ball Defensive premise. Just help me clarify. When you refer to On-Ball D, you're essentially talking about controlling the man that in direct interaction to the ball handler. So if your first defender is beat than you gotta switch to the next line of defense, not just lay back on the original defender.

If this is the correct perception of what you mean as On-Ball D, I think it's a good one, but still one that most people, even if they wanted to, would have a hard time adjusting to. Yea, off-ball D can be kinda weak, but I think what you also have to consider is that some guys just don't have the skill, reaction time, or stamina to consistently switch from guy to guy to guy over the course of a possession.

Ultimately, I think what most of the guys here are taking real offense to is the "cheese" term being more loosely thrown around than the "sim" one. I think everyone here knows what real "cheesing" is like and have experienced playing against those who make the game truely unenjoyable. Yet, I for one am a huge basketball gamer and take pride in the style of play and level of competition that I entertain. And to have an individual (seemingly) belittle that is something that I, nor a lot of competitive guys on this forum, probably have much patience for.

Again, your entitled to your opinion, and I appreciate you posting your perception, but definitely be careful how you throw around the "C" word. :wink:

[Todem]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I think I'm starting to see where you're gettin at now, at least when it comes to the On-Ball Defensive premise. Just help me clarify. When you refer to On-Ball D, you're essentially talking about controlling the man that in direct interaction to the ball handler. So if your first defender is beat than you gotta switch to the next line of defense, not just lay back on the original defender.

If this is the correct perception of what you mean as On-Ball D, I think it's a good one, but still one that most people, even if they wanted to, would have a hard time adjusting to. Yea, off-ball D can be kinda weak, but I think what you also have to consider is that some guys just don't have the skill, reaction time, or stamina to consistently switch from guy to guy to guy over the course of a possession.

Ultimately, I think what most of the guys here are taking real offense to is the "cheese" term being more loosely thrown around than the "sim" one. I think everyone here knows what real "cheesing" is like and have experienced playing against those who make the game truely unenjoyable. Yet, I for one am a huge basketball gamer and take pride in the style of play and level of competition that I entertain. And to have an individual (seemingly) belittle that is something that I, nor a lot of competitive guys on this forum, probably have much patience for.

Again, your entitled to your opinion, and I appreciate you posting your perception, but definitely be careful how you throw around the "C" word. :wink:

This is a great post. You have your abusers and then you have players that are really good that can be perceived as cheesers by guys with much less skill. Then you have the middle tier.

Most of the time the guys that complain and whine in sim leagues are the ones who get their asses handed to them week in week out. I have seen some legit cheesers squeeze into a supposed "sim" league and they are normally rooted out one way or another.

I play to win. But I will not play the game like a punk.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I think I'm starting to see where you're gettin at now, at least when it comes to the On-Ball Defensive premise. Just help me clarify. When you refer to On-Ball D, you're essentially talking about controlling the man that in direct interaction to the ball handler. So if your first defender is beat than you gotta switch to the next line of defense, not just lay back on the original defender.

If this is the correct perception of what you mean as On-Ball D, I think it's a good one, but still one that most people, even if they wanted to, would have a hard time adjusting to. Yea, off-ball D can be kinda weak, but I think what you also have to consider is that some guys just don't have the skill, reaction time, or stamina to consistently switch from guy to guy to guy over the course of a possession.

Ultimately, I think what most of the guys here are taking real offense to is the "cheese" term being more loosely thrown around than the "sim" one. I think everyone here knows what real "cheesing" is like and have experienced playing against those who make the game truely unenjoyable. Yet, I for one am a huge basketball gamer and take pride in the style of play and level of competition that I entertain. And to have an individual (seemingly) belittle that is something that I, nor a lot of competitive guys on this forum, probably have much patience for.

Again, your entitled to your opinion, and I appreciate you posting your perception, but definitely be careful how you throw around the "C" word. :wink:

That is exactly what I mean, no need to clarify more. I played an entire 82 game schedule 32 man league under these rules in 2k7 and It was so enjoyable for all involved that when the play offs rolled around no one left the league. I think in that entire season only one person left because of unsportsmanlike game play.

The thing about adjusting your game is simply that. You have to adjust your game, no getting around it. I'm sure it's easier to just let the cpu guard the ball handler, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I'll guarantee you this, play a few games this way, sim style, with on Ball Defense, and I'll guarantee you you'll never go back.

You are correct it is only my opinion, but like I said if you say to me playing off ball defense isn't cheese. Then I give you points as to why it is, and then your entire argument boils down to I don't care, I'm going to do what it takes to win. I feel as though I have proven my point.

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I'm having a hard time understanding the difficulty here. If your strictly a videogamer and don't really care about "real" basketball and its dynamics, thats fine. Just understand that there are people do like to approach the game from that perspective and its best to have some kind of communication beforehard to hash things out (that means either parting ways or adjusting your respective approaches). Put it out in the open, that way you'll both get the experience you're going for and no one leaves pissed off.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

You are correct it is only my opinion, but like I said if you say to me playing off ball defense isn't cheese. Then I give you points as to why it is, and then your entire argument boils down to I don't care, I'm going to do what it takes to win. I feel as though I have proven my point.

You didn't argue any of my points. All you say is the same thing and you don't defend or explain any good reasoning behind your way of so called SIM play. So let me get this straight, your arguement and definition of on ball defense means I can play with let's say Greg Oden on the weakside help as long as I am playing the ball and watching the ball? Or are you saying I have to go after the ball immediately when I switch to a guy off ball?

If I see you driving I will attack the dribbler or maybe trap on the baseline drive. If your running the pick n roll I will guard against the roller. and then quickly recover back to my man when my teammate recovers to his. I might even play the high pick with the guy guarding the picker so I can hedge the screen myself to once again wait to recover to my man when my teammate recovers. That is basketball and a legit strategy that is SIM! Its a chess match! You obviously have problems to adjusting and would rather enjoy a game like live or elite where it's 1 on 1 and you can take off from the 3 point line and dunk with a guy like Earl Boykins. I play the ball too don't get me wrong but it is not needed to play SIM or to have as a rule in a SIM league IMO! That is a bit to much and not needed again IMO!

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

This guy posted this in another thread and I thought this was a good fit for it here. Especially in 2k10 we all know anyone could get to the hoop at will especially online and especially if my opponent was guarding the ball!

After encountering so many chessers in rank game, my defense has became much better, even if they score every single point in paint, i am fine. (I was at rank 6x)

but recently i played 3 guys run the same offense 24/7 and I really dont know how to stop them. here is their offense:

1. handle the ball with a high speed, good dribble move, good lay up/dunk PG/SG. In my case, they use Kobe, Derrick Rose, Brandon Roy

2. have the ball at the top of the 3pt line, then they called kind of a "isolation play" but I their guys spread out much more "wider" then the "quick Isolation"

3. start dribbling with ISO moves and try to get pass my defender at the top of the 3pt line and get to the basket.

here comes the problems:
If I played On-ball D, it is very hard to prevent him get pass my defender as they are using Kobe, Roy, Rose with a lot of space of them to keep do those ISO moves. (just like realy life, how many times can u stop Kobe get pass u 1on1??)

Once he get pass me, normally it is too late for me to switch to C/PF to contest the layup/dunk as my C/PF got pull out very far away from the paint by their "Isolation Play". Even if I manage to quick switch and come over, he can just throw it down hard, of pump fake, fake me in the air, easy 2pt.

And the worst thing is, sometime when he get pass my defender at the 3pt line, my CPU will bring Help-D and left the guy on the perimeter wide open. then ofcourse he kicks it out for easy 3pt...

If I play Off-ball D, stay with my Center, he can easily dribble past my CPU defender, and when I try to use my Center to contest shot, he pass it to his C.... things like that.

BTW, I run Man To Man Defense all time. (I dont really want to camp in 2-3zone), I have tried to adjust my Defensive pressure and help D slider, but it doesnt seems to stop them from getting pass my defender.

They just keep doing the same offense everytime...

[blues rocker]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

BTW, I run Man To Man Defense all time. (I dont really want to camp in 2-3zone)They just keep doing the same offense everytime...

why won't you use a zone? that would probably help with this problem

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I normally start playing on ball d, but when I see a trend of my opponent either constantly passing the ball to "kobe/howard" in the post and/or frequently breaking my defense by iso-driving it, I take a help defender and try to convince (force) him to not to.

Also, there are games were the AI is just plain re-tarded (maybe because of some pretty bad defensive teams and individual low ratings) and I need to compensate that by taking one (or more) of the off the ball players in order to place him where he is supposed to be.

I agree that someone who is always parked on the paint, who is always doing double team and who is always looking for a steal or a block are cheesers but ... I have always feel that those who blindly predicate that playing "strictly" on ball D (with no off ball what so ever) is sim, are those who are just, plain and simple: good with the sticks (not necessarilly sim players at all) and need to feel confortable by doing that, while negating their opponent strategy superiority.

Basketball is more complex than physical attributes (or stick skills), is a "team" sport, were 5 players face 5 players, were 2 coaches face each other, were strategies and counters are met, were anticipation is a most (I am good at it) ... and yes, were sticks skills (or physical attributes, soso at it) also collide (yet, as important as they are, are not the alone factor to dictate a win ... look at MJ, he was an excellent athlete but he was far more a superb player with his on the court IQ).

I have faced, allegatedlly sim players, that while not doing most of the above and while strictly playing on ball d, spend the whole game doing alley oops, constant driving with iso crossovers/hop steps and doing excesive pick and rolls (and wasnt even using PHO or UTAH).

Sim is a style of play were you dont feel handcuffed when you dont do what you were given, If you feel like that when you do excesses, then maybe you are not so sim (even if the defense is letting you) ... it comes as a natural sim response/action not to do unproportionate things because you dont see that in the sport ... yes real teams/players could, but they dont, so do/dont you. To me, real sim player dont go un sim if they are being beaten by an un sim player, they just stick to their way of play and try to disrupt the opponents gameplay with strategy, rather than cheese.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

why won't you use a zone? that would probably help with this problem

That wasn't my post, I took it from another thread without quoting it...

My solution...

I would try sagging off everyone first before going to a zone personally though. I would play off ball, ready for help and then if that didnt work i'd try zone.

That was 2k10 though and hopefully it's all been fixed in 2k11 so these problems shouldn't be problems this year?! Although spacing looks great in Czars vids so who knows. As long as on ball "D" and under the hoop physics is in the game and we see the physicality between defender and ball handler alot of these problems will be gone imo... I noticed the CPU help seem much better as well! We'll see on Tuesday though! Can't wait!

[Nephilim]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

One of thos annoying kids that try to boss around other, you should do brooom when you drive your bicycle not broom. LOL crazy kids.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I normally start playing on ball d, but when I see a trend of my opponent either passing the ball to "kobe/howard" in the post and/or breaking my defense by iso-driving it, I take a help defender and try to convince (force) him to not to.

Also, there are games were the AI is just plain re-tarded (maybe because of some pretty bad defensive teams and individual low ratings) and I need to compensate that by taking one (or more) of the off the ball players in order to place him where he is supposed to be.

I agree that someone who is always parked on the paint, who is always doing double team and who is always looking for a steal or a block are cheesers but ... I have always feel that those who blindly predicate that playing "strictly" on ball D (with no off ball what so ever) is sim, are those who are just, plain and simple: good with the sticks (not necessarilly sim players at all) and need to feel confortable by doing that, while negating their opponent strategy superiority.

Basketball is more complex than physical attributes (or stick skills), is a "team" sport, were 5 players face 5 players, were 2 coaches face each other, were strategies and counters are met, were anticipation is a most (I am good at it) ... and yes, were sticks skills (or physical attributes, soso at it) also collide (yet, as important as they are, are not the alone factor to dictate a win ... look at MJ, he was an excellent athlete but he was far more a superb player with his on the court IQ).

I have faced, allegatelly sim players, that while not doing most of the above and while strictly playing on ball d, spend the whole game doing alley oops, constant driving with iso crossovers/hop steps and doing excesive pick and rolls.

Sim is a style of play were you dont feel handcuffed when you dont do what you were given, If you feel like that when you do excesses, then maybe you are not so sim (even if the defense is letting you) ... it comes as a natural sim response/action not to do unproportionate things because you dont see that in the sport ... yes real teams/players could, but they dont, so do/dont you. To me, real sim player dont go un sim if they are being beaten by an un sim player, they just stick to their way of play and try to disrupt the opponents gameplay with strategy, rather than cheese.

Well put!!!

[dat swag]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Not following the whole thread but I have a small question/comment

1. Do the majority of folks think off ball D is Cheese?...and more importantly what is the climate here at OS for off ball D.

I personally play the game for fun and relaxation but at the same time I want as close to a simulation experience as I can get so for me that means running plays, not sprinting all over the court and trying to make the game look as close to an NBA game as possible.

On the other hand I personally don't have a problem with off ball D as long as my opponent is not continually clicking off to allow the CPU to play D 100% of the time...See if I wanted to play against the CPU I wouldn't wast my time online. So I really feel like its ok to play Off ball but when the player I am guarding gets the rock I don't runaway...I stay on that player and play D manually...I may even switch on to play manual D but the one thing I won't do is play what I like to refer to as "RUNAWAY D".

Going a step further I'm usually so deep into executing my own style of play that I don't even know what my opponent is doing in terms of are they playing D manually or not...Some guys think they are the sim police and that's no way to play any game...Its best just to worry about your own style and have fun with the game and if possible play people you trust that will give you the true sim experience you are looking for.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Not following the whole thread but I have a small question/comment

1. Do the majority of folks think off ball D is Cheese?...and more importantly what is the climate here at OS for off ball D.

...snippet

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...se-cheese.html

Poll Results as of 9/11/10
<table class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="alt1" width="75%">Yes </td> <td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"> </td> <td class="alt1" title="Votes" align="center" width="12%" nowrap="nowrap">14</td> <td class="alt2" align="right" width="13%" nowrap="nowrap">13.59%</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1" width="75%"> No </td> <td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"> </td> <td class="alt1" title="Votes" align="center" width="12%" nowrap="nowrap">51</td> <td class="alt2" align="right" width="13%" nowrap="nowrap">49.51%</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1" width="75%"> It depends how you use it. </td> <td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap"> </td> <td class="alt1" title="Votes" align="center" width="12%" nowrap="nowrap">38</td> <td class="alt2" align="right" width="13%" nowrap="nowrap">36.89%</td></tr></tbody></table>