2023 Offseason Thread

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Twitter said the Wizards completed the washed point guard trifecta lol




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[illwill10]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Twitter said the Wizards completed the washed point guard trifecta lol




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Just need Wall to sign with OKC to make it fully complete lol

[ProfessaPackMan]

2023 Offseason Thread

I know this has been a discussion we've had before. But it's off-season and we're basketball heads. So why not have it again...

IIIIIII believe that depth is overrated lol

Feels like it gets brought up every time a team puts studs together and sacrifices this theoretical "depth". And most times, it gets proven wrong

Just think about this year as a great example. Nuggets played two guys off their bench in Bruce Brown (he's cool) and Christian Baysinger? Basinjer? Bassinger? Oh, and they sprinkled in some 40 year old Jeff Green too. Champions nonetheless

Miami beat all the top teams in the East with the (overstated) undrafted all stars and Jimmy. Pretty sure before their run, no one was saying they had so much "depth" and how that's going to give teams trouble.

Celtics and Bucks probably had the best depth of anyone. Didn't do them much good this year.

Yet, almost every instance of these super teams leads to success. Sure we've had some lose to some teams that would have been considered inferior talent wise.

But I personally wouldn't chalk that up to a lack of depth. I would put more of that on coaching than anything. Oh, and it also helps to have a superstar of your own that goes on an absolute tear (shout out to Dirk).

Where depth shines is if injuries occur. Or, I don't know, the NFL. Outside of that, the impact is minimal on a team that's top heavy. At least historically speaking (Boston, Miami, GS, Cleveland). Depth is also important if you DON'T have those super mega stars on your team. Sure, that will make you better than a lot of lesser teams. But odds are that team gets beat by the superteams of the world.

We all play 2K. When's the last time you've lost and you attributed that loss to your opponent having better depth and not because of them having Lebron or KD clobbering you into oblivion? [emoji23]

Now, having said all that, not all "superteams" are built the same. Prime Bron/Wade/Bosh or Prime Steph/KD/Klay is not the same as having chronic underachieving Beal/Kobe minus the defense, tenacity, athleticism and leadership/35 year old, post Achilles tear Durant. So my confidence in this working out for them is not too high at the moment either lol

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Typed all this just to say each team building method is different, lol

I’m not saying Beal wasn’t worth a typical max deal, and because he’s been with the same team this whole time his max is just higher because of that.. but I don’t think Washington should have given him that contract, and for damn sure not with the NTC. If signing for a little less than the max pissed him off then trade him while his value is at its highest and move on.

I mean you can expand that past Beal, Kuz, Porzingis even too. KCP walked for nothing, 2nd round picks for Rui, traded Trez for Ish Smith which they let walk. Between Arenas, Wall, Beal they’ve had possibly the 3 worst contract situations in the past 20 years.

1. Still have to sell that to Ownership, otherwise good luck. Remember, y’all can’t just look at the Basketball side of this when you consider that.

2. Injuries/Stupidity(in Arenas’ case)pretty much wrecked those contracts because none of them were bad decisions. Sucks too because they gave the city/fans hope for a little bit.

[ProfessaPackMan]

2023 Offseason Thread

Double post

[Majingir]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Wizards going after that #1 pick next year.

Doesn't seem like a good return at all, not that they had many options.

I wonder where this leaves Ayton. There were rumors of them wanting to deal him. Does adding a #3 behind Beal and KD mean they could be more or less willing to move Ayton?

[jeebs9]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

I laughed a little too hard at thisScreenshot_20230618-203416.jpg

[Master Live 013]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

So in the end Beal did get traded for basically nothing since CP3 is going to get waived (right?). Go for the pick Wiz!

[Master Live 013]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Did not remember the numbers for the remaining Beal contract. Kill it, kill it with fire

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Did not remember the numbers for the remaining Beal contract. Kill it, kill it with fire

Plus the no trade clause doesn’t go away.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Typed all this just to say each team building method is different, lol




1. Still have to sell that to Ownership, otherwise good luck. Remember, y’all can’t just look at the Basketball side of this when you consider that.

2. Injuries/Stupidity(in Arenas’ case)pretty much wrecked those contracts because none of them were bad decisions. Sucks too because they gave the city/fans hope for a little bit.

1.) I mean maybe. But Beal is one of only 10 players ever to get a true NTC.. And the Kobe and Melo situations were enough evidence to convince anybody to avoid those, but especially when it’s tied to the biggest contract in the NBA, and includes a trade kicker, and that player isn’t, nor ever had been, a superstar.

I understand at the time it’s more than just basketball. But here we are now a short time after and they are moving him for nothing which is both bad for basketball are for every thing else you’d factor in as well. It’s definitely an “in hindsight” thing but it still ****ed them regardless. The discussion now is about the trade, not what happened then or the reasoning, and right now in this moment that contract ****ed them.

2.) You’re right.. 100%, not really saying those examples were bad decisions (Beal is more debatable) just the reality of what happened after the fact. A bunch of failed opportunities for them over the years, some on management/coaching, some on luck, but it’s been ugly. Looks like they are about to have a clean slate, so maybe that improves finally.

[ojandpizza]

2023 Offseason Thread

So Book is gonna run point?

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Thinking on this, they could also just start Payne at the PG spot. Are there really that many SFs that you can’t put Book/Beal on defensively?

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

1.) I mean maybe. But Beal is one of only 10 players ever to get a true NTC.. And the Kobe and Melo situations were enough evidence to convince anybody to avoid those, but especially when it’s tied to the biggest contract in the NBA, and includes a trade kicker, and that player isn’t, nor ever had been, a superstar.

I understand at the time it’s more than just basketball. But here we are now a short time after and they are moving him for nothing which is both bad for basketball are for every thing else you’d factor in as well. It’s definitely an “in hindsight” thing but it still ****ed them regardless. The discussion now is about the trade, not what happened then or the reasoning, and right now in this moment that contract ****ed them.

2.) You’re right.. 100%, not really saying those examples were bad decisions (Beal is more debatable) just the reality of what happened after the fact. A bunch of failed opportunities for them over the years, some on management/coaching, some on luck, but it’s been ugly. Looks like they are about to have a clean slate, so maybe that improves finally.

The contract ****ed them because the team wasn’t good for various reasons. That’s it.

But yeah, as an Owner, you have to take the business side into it(after all, that’s what this is). I know it’s not something we think about or care about but when you’re in that position, you absolutely have to. And at the time, paying him made perfect sense. Nothing really changed from then, unless we want to argue who/what they could’ve used that money on, which good luck doing that haha

Funny because I just surpassed the part in the Lakers Documentary talking about Kobe getting that NTC and his wife was the reason why he got that, lol.

It was around the time when he made his trade request and Detroit had a deal in place but of course he wasn’t going to go there and his wife said that she would never leave LA because she’s a “Cali Girl” and told his agent at the time(Pelinka)to include some sort of no trade clause in his next deal and that’s what he did.

(Not disagreeing just adding on)

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

It’s not really about just giving him the money for me. I think my thoughts on this is more so, was Beal really not going to sign the 250 million dollar extension without the trade kicker and the no trade clause? Again this is a situation that only applies to him, nobody else has that tied to their super max.

It pretty much gave Beal the ability to pick where he wanted to go and drastically lower the return. Because say Portland was on his list and management was like “ok Portland wants to swap you with Dame”, Beal would simply back out because why go to Portland if not to play with Dame? He would have backed out of any deal that sent him somewhere that the team got worse by trading for him.

And if Beal wouldn’t sign his max deal without all that then you already know the idea of leaving is on his mind. No matter how much he says he wants to stay publicly. And if he rejects the max deal without those tied to it then he also looks like the “bad guy” for turning down 250 million. Which takes management off the hook for the blame.

He just signed this deal last year. So whatever business side benefits this had it lasted one year? Ehhh.. we’re not far removed from the Kuz, KCP, two first round picks, and whatever else being “nowhere near enough” for the Lakers to get Beal, only for him to get Shamet and some 2nd round picks?

I’ll never fault any team for giving their in-house guy a max deal when he’s earned it. But the other stuff? Idk Pack, I just can’t agree that was a smart move for basketball reasons, business reasons, or any other reasons. If it was just giving him his money that’s one thing, every team gives their max guy his max offer. But tying the other stuff to it was bad for basketball, for business, for the fans. Pretty much the only thing it was good for was the memes/Twitter making fun of them trading their franchise player for Landry Shamet.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

(This may be semantics, sorry if it is)

I don't think Beal's contract was a non-basketball business decision. Beal doesn't sell tickets or bring attention to the franchise.

The reason this may be semantics is I think his contract was a case of a sports team thinking they have to do something. Its almost like a sunk cost fallacy. Wizards felt like they absolutely had to sign him even at that cost over letting him walk for nothing. I think Phoenix is making a similar mistake here. They are so concerned that they have to make a move, the question of is it a good move is not really being asked.

Seems every offseason we can expect teams to overpay someone due to the misguided mindset that "we cannot lose them and get nothing in return." Why can't you? I'd take letting a guy walk in FA vs hamstringing my team with a horrible contract.

[BleacherBum2310]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

I know this has been a discussion we've had before. But it's off-season and we're basketball heads. So why not have it again...

IIIIIII believe that depth is overrated lol

Feels like it gets brought up every time a team puts studs together and sacrifices this theoretical "depth". And most times, it gets proven wrong

Just think about this year as a great example. Nuggets played two guys off their bench in Bruce Brown (he's cool) and Christian Baysinger? Basinjer? Bassinger? Oh, and they sprinkled in some 40 year old Jeff Green too. Champions nonetheless

Miami beat all the top teams in the East with the (overstated) undrafted all stars and Jimmy. Pretty sure before their run, no one was saying they had so much "depth" and how that's going to give teams trouble.

Celtics and Bucks probably had the best depth of anyone. Didn't do them much good this year.

Yet, almost every instance of these super teams leads to success. Sure we've had some lose to some teams that would have been considered inferior talent wise.

But I personally wouldn't chalk that up to a lack of depth. I would put more of that on coaching than anything. Oh, and it also helps to have a superstar of your own that goes on an absolute tear (shout out to Dirk).

Where depth shines is if injuries occur. Or, I don't know, the NFL. Outside of that, the impact is minimal on a team that's top heavy. At least historically speaking (Boston, Miami, GS, Cleveland). Depth is also important if you DON'T have those super mega stars on your team. Sure, that will make you better than a lot of lesser teams. But odds are that team gets beat by the superteams of the world.

We all play 2K. When's the last time you've lost and you attributed that loss to your opponent having better depth and not because of them having Lebron or KD clobbering you into oblivion? [emoji23]

Now, having said all that, not all "superteams" are built the same. Prime Bron/Wade/Bosh or Prime Steph/KD/Klay is not the same as having chronic underachieving Beal/Kobe minus the defense, tenacity, athleticism and leadership/35 year old, post Achilles tear Durant. So my confidence in this working out for them is not too high at the moment either lol

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if you have a solid top 7 you are usually fine. sometimes you can get away with 6.5. Regular season you need more than that but i don't think we are too worried about that with these teams. even the Cs who had a ton of depth on paper only had about 7 they could trust because of Gallo injury, Grant's regression. so yeah basically. i only meant depth i don't really like any of the suns options as currently on the roster. as avenues to upgrade. health will probably be a bigger factor for them when you factor in KD and Beal's history isn't too great either.