2023 Offseason Thread

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

I meannnnn if we’re being honest…did he really show anything different than when he was in BK, especially in Year 1 with Kyrie and KD? He was pretty much the #3 guy behind those 2.

And also, the Basketball part was never in question from most logical people but it was the conditioning part, which is still somewhat of an issue.

[dubcity]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Harden = volume stats without the winning and motivation and attitude to make it worth a damn. And at this point he has zero motivation to change because he has his stans and HoF spot locked up.

[dubcity]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

... and Harden wants to win,

Does he? Idk. He's had chances to maximize opportunities to win, but he has either given up or not cared to change his ways.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

I meannnnn if we’re being honest…did he really show anything different than when he was in BK, especially in Year 1 with Kyrie and KD? He was pretty much the #3 guy behind those 2.

And also, the Basketball part was never in question from most logical people but it was the conditioning part, which is still somewhat of an issue.

Not drastically, but lower usage still even compared to that, less free throws, and shot better from 3. All small differences overall but still differences that seems to show SOME improvement to me in being a bit less and less ball dependent, foul dependent, as time goes on. But yeah, definitely similar to with the Nets.

It was also the highest % of his outside shots that were assisted since playing with Dwight. Which seems to point towards him being a bit more willing/able to play off bigs who draw help.. Which is why I thought the Philly pairing seemed ideal rather than sticking him in the backcourt with other guys who also need the ball.

But yeah there are obviously other issues at play too.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Does he? Idk. He's had chances to maximimize opportunities to win, but he has either given up or not cared to change his ways.

His game has changed though, that was the entire point of the rest of my post. It can only change so much, no player completely revamps their game at any point in their careers (Brook Lopez maybe) but he's made pretty large improvements against that criticism from a few years ago..

[illwill10]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

I meannnnn if we’re being honest…did he really show anything different than when he was in BK, especially in Year 1 with Kyrie and KD? He was pretty much the #3 guy behind those 2.

And also, the Basketball part was never in question from most logical people but it was the conditioning part, which is still somewhat of an issue.

I agree that it wasn't/wouldn't be any different than what it was in year 1 of BK. I think he's better in that role and why he should fit well with LAC. You give him a defined #3 role, he should have a positive impact. In Philly, it was just a weird clash of players. Two ball dominant players. Harden has a high ceiling, but very low floor and can be very not engaged off ball. Maxey and Harris disappeared in games when they weren't getting touches. Tucker was useless on offense. That and no off ball movement.

Conditioning was still an issue. He would still play heavy minutes. But for me, I wanted him to play 32-35 minutes, not 38-40 minutes in the regular season. But, I wouldn't say conditioning is the biggest issue. I think his two biggest issues are him coming to grips with reality and being engaged off ball. He can't do what he did on and off the court like he was in Houston. I don't see him being on one of those former stars who are willing to adjust their game to stay in the league. Once he has no choice but to be a backup, I think he hangs it up.

[illwill10]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Not drastically, but lower usage still even compared to that, less free throws, and shot better from 3. All small differences overall but still differences that seems to show SOME improvement to me in being a bit less and less ball dependent, foul dependent, as time goes on. But yeah, definitely similar to with the Nets.

It was also the highest % of his outside shots that were assisted since playing with Dwight. Which seems to point towards him being a bit more willing/able to play off bigs who draw help.. Which is why I thought the Philly pairing seemed ideal rather than sticking him in the backcourt with other guys who also need the ball.

But yeah there are obviously other issues at play too.

Well having less free throws and being foul dependent, wasn't by choice lol. It wasn't as bad as it was when he got there after the trade, but he was driving with the intent of drawing a foul. I would see him trying to hook players as he was driving. .

But yes. In a way, he does fit well next to Embiid. He shot well off the catch. His issue was that he isn't engaged when he doesn't have the ball. If he was willing to do more off ball movement, it would make his game more efficient. Imagine him coming off an off ball screen while Embiid has the ball in the low post, Harden would get wide open shots.

[illwill10]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

What would have happened if Clippers didn't back out of the Brogdon deal? I don't know if things would be the same. I don't know if there's another team that would make sense

[illwill10]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-rumors-james-harden-trade-talks-joel-embiid-pj-tucker-rudy-gay-lakers-warriors-bucks/

I wouldn't be opposed to trading PJ Tucker. I like the impact he can have in the playoffs. But too many negatives in his game at this point. Only thing he brings offensively is corner three shooting and the occasional hustle offensive board. But, if you're going to be a corner 3 only guy, you can't be a nonshooter as well. He passed up so many open threes and would not take non-corner threes at all. And he was tasked on being the primary defensive wing. Both him and Harris shouldn't be primary defenders. Plus, I rather have more size and athleticism.

In order to make that work, it would have to be Harden and Tucker for Powell, Morris, and Batum. Which, I wouldn't mind. It would fill the drastic wing depth need and bring more guys who can defend. But, the issue with that package would be the Powell contract. Or if Harden was willing to waive his trade kicker, they can sub out Powell for Roco. Morey doesn't want to bring in long term money. He wants as much cap space as possible for next offseason.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Harden = volume stats without the winning and motivation and attitude to make it worth a damn. And at this point he has zero motivation to change because he has his stans and HoF spot locked up.

I do want to expand some on this.. Harden is far from perfect and is never going to be perfect. There will always be some chunk of his ugly tendencies present because players don't really change their entire identity... I believe he's made changes around the fringes but we can agree to disagree on that front.

But, and this applies to other players not just Harden, I don't understand how we get to this weird point of perceived thought processes. Like we know who's motivated, who wants to win, who has killer instinct, all of that stuff. We aren't even in the locker room, much less inside their head. How do we come to the conclusion that someone who's reached the level and success Harden has just isn't motivated?

I'll give you attitude because he's came into camp with issues, came in out of shape, all that. But how is he not motivated?. How does an un-motivated player become one of the best players in the league? If Harden didn't care about winning why did he want to leave Houston in the first place? This is just another one of those *insert random player gets a reputation* and people just run with bad narratives based on that..

And Harden's teams HAVE won.. He hasn't gotten all the way over the hump (most teams don't) but Harden is a current top 10 player in win%. He's basically even with Curry. He's also top 10 in playoff games won... So it's one of those like the way he plays or not he's winning more games than about 98% of all players. How does an un-motivated player who doesn't want to win do that?

Might be a completely different argument if his teams weren't winning, if he didn't leave what is basically "home" to chase winning, if he was still out there hogging half his teams usage chasing 35 points night while he's playing with guys like KD and Embiid.... But none of those scenarios exist...

And if winning doesn't matter, and if all he wants to do is get all the usage and play the way he wants, why is the one destination given the Clippers? He could potentially have the lowest usage of his career there, if healthy the least amount of touches he's ever gotten. To play on one of the most talented teams in the league, and with maybe the most no-nonsense just hoop player in the league in Kawhi (other than Jokic)..

IDK.. Like I said turning into some amazing off-ball threat who just never leans on his iso-strengths isn't going to happen. He can't just magically turn into that guy overnight. But everything he's done over the past 2-3 years now pretty much point to the opposite of every other point you've made here.

[illwill10]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

'Restricted free agent G Ayo Dosunmu has agreed on a three-year, $21 million deal to stay with the Chicago Bulls, agent Mike Lindeman of @excelbasketball tells ESPN."

Wonder what was taking this so long

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

'Restricted free agent G Ayo Dosunmu has agreed on a three-year, $21 million deal to stay with the Chicago Bulls, agent Mike Lindeman of @excelbasketball tells ESPN."

Wonder what was taking this so long

I imagine waiting to see if the league would approve the DPE at the start of things. Since then, think they were allowing him time to test the market and see if an offer sheet would come. Hearing that Toronto allegedly had real interest and may have been willing to put something more than they were willing to stomach out there, guess they just went ahead and got this done.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-rumo...arriors-bucks/

I wouldn't be opposed to trading PJ Tucker. I like the impact he can have in the playoffs. But too many negatives in his game at this point. Only thing he brings offensively is corner three shooting and the occasional hustle offensive board. But, if you're going to be a corner 3 only guy, you can't be a nonshooter as well. He passed up so many open threes and would not take non-corner threes at all. And he was tasked on being the primary defensive wing. Both him and Harris shouldn't be primary defenders. Plus, I rather have more size and athleticism.

In order to make that work, it would have to be Harden and Tucker for Powell, Morris, and Batum. Which, I wouldn't mind. It would fill the drastic wing depth need and bring more guys who can defend. But, the issue with that package would be the Powell contract. Or if Harden was willing to waive his trade kicker, they can sub out Powell for Roco. Morey doesn't want to bring in long term money. He wants as much cap space as possible for next offseason.

Tucker living off the Bucks’ run it’s amazing lol


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[illwill10]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Tucker living off the Bucks’ run it’s amazing lol


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That and Embiid’s comments last year about wanting him got him paid paid lol. He probably should've been a MLE, not a NTMLE lol.

Doc was benching him in 4th quarters pretty much the whole season. I'm all for including Tucker in a Harden trade. Tucker is out here just getting cardio in lol

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2023 Offseason Thread

Watch he turn into a damn star for the Raptors. WTF AK man?

Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
8m
·
Free agent G Javon Freeman-Liberty has agreed on a two-way contract with the Toronto Raptors, his agents Luke and Keith Glass tell ESPN. Liberty-Freeman averaged 21 points for the Bulls in the Vegas Summer League.

Daniel Greenberg
@ChiSportUpdates
·
7m
3 NBA teams offered Chicago's own Javon Freeman-Liberty two-way deals but he turned those down and ended up signing with the Toronto Raptors, his agents Luke and Keith Glass tell me. The Bulls didn't make an offer.