Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

[rudyjuly2]

I just wish drop coverage was better. It’s so commonly used and prevents easy buckets and I rarely see the cpu execute it. I will see “Dropping” over my head at times so I wonder if it’s just not being executed properly. I think many of us would like to see Drop used far more often and dare the mid range.

[STLRams]

Quote: Originally Posted by goma76

Play passing line at 0 could reflect in less intercept ball from the defense? I’m asking but the sense of that slider is to set the tendency of stealing ball from wrong pass.

I was wondering the same thing. I would still like to see good defenders steal bad passes and get some fast break points and stop easy passes into the paint?

[EccentricMeat]

Quote: Originally Posted by STLRams

I was wondering the same thing. I would still like to see good defenders steal bad passes and get some fast break points and stop easy passes into the paint?

Yea if you pass it at a defender they will still steal the pass.

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

I just wish drop coverage was better. It’s so commonly used and prevents easy buckets and I rarely see the cpu execute it. I will see “Dropping” over my head at times so I wonder if it’s just not being executed properly. I think many of us would like to see Drop used far more often and dare the mid range.

Play Passing Lanes at 0 coupled with Contest Shots at 100 will have the screen defender either switch and play up close, double team if the on-ball defender avoids/fights through the screen quickly, or drop down into the paint to help cover both players.

Note that I also have On-Ball Defense and Lateral Quickness at 75 (helps the screen defender be more affective when he switches to defend on-ball) with Defensive Awareness, Help Defense Strength, and Drive Contact Shot Frequency at 100. But I was seeing the same decision making by the hedge defender at default Superstar and HOF settings with just the Play Passing Lanes and Contest Shot tweaks.

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

I’ve got help Defense and defensive awareness at 100 and with passing lanes at 0 the roll man is now money. He’s open all the time. I think we just need to get a patch for the AI.

We definitely still need a patch for the AI. But with my current settings I’m definitely not seeing the roll man as “money”. Yea some plays he’s open when the hedge over-commits and the on-ball defender doesn’t switch, but that’s basketball. Other plays the hedge drops while the on-ball defender is taken out by the screener and you have an open shot, but that’s basketball too.

The defense should never guard the PnR perfectly every single time. As long as defenders are in realistic positions and react to the play, I’m happy with it. But they still need to patch the fact that the hedge defender will normally completely ignore the dribbler during PnR when Play Passing Lanes is set to anything but 0.

I love the way the defense plays when Play Passing Lanes and Contest Shots are both at 100, except for the ridiculous logic of the hedge defender in the PnR.

[CujoMatty]

play passing lanes at 0 helped the issue a little for sure but the side effect is I could pass the ball way too recklessly and get away with it. The cpu would pick off the odd pass but more often than not I could do cross court passes with no consequence.

Switching defensive settings to switch, although not perfect, still gets me an all around better playing game I feel. I just have to have a house rule of not constantly abusing the defence.

[sperlz_99]

Quote: Originally Posted by EccentricMeat

Yea if you pass it at a defender they will still steal the pass. Play Passing Lanes at 0 coupled with Contest Shots at 100 will have the screen defender either switch and play up close, double team if the on-ball defender avoids/fights through the screen quickly, or drop down into the paint to help cover both players. Note that I also have On-Ball Defense and Lateral Quickness at 75 (helps the screen defender be more affective when he switches to defend on-ball) with Defensive Awareness, Help Defense Strength, and Drive Contact Shot Frequency at 100. But I was seeing the same decision making by the hedge defender at default Superstar and HOF settings with just the Play Passing Lanes and Contest Shot tweaks. We definitely still need a patch for the AI. But with my current settings I’m definitely not seeing the roll man as “money”. Yea some plays he’s open when the hedge over-commits and the on-ball defender doesn’t switch, but that’s basketball. Other plays the hedge drops while the on-ball defender is taken out by the screener and you have an open shot, but that’s basketball too. The defense should never guard the PnR perfectly every single time. As long as defenders are in realistic positions and react to the play, I’m happy with it. But they still need to patch the fact that the hedge defender will normally completely ignore the dribbler during PnR when Play Passing Lanes is set to anything but 0. I love the way the defense plays when Play Passing Lanes and Contest Shots are both at 100, except for the ridiculous logic of the hedge defender in the PnR.

I've just tried these settings and they've made zero difference. I'm not saying that may not be the case for you, but using the same lineups in my original video I'm still getting the exact same results. The defense cant deal with quick players and arent cutting off the lanes. I can just run round them for the easy layup, even with these settings

[EccentricMeat]

Quote: Originally Posted by sperlz_99

I've just tried these settings and they've made zero difference. I'm not saying that may not be the case for you, but using the same lineups in my original video I'm still getting the exact same results. The defense cant deal with quick players and arent cutting off the lanes. I can just run round them for the easy layup, even with these settings

If the issue is speed then you need to fix the speed. Simple as that. Increase the Speed/Accel Without Ball (Min) values to 50 or 55 so that slower players aren't literally stuck in slow motion. Decrease the Speed/Accel With Ball (Max) values to 55 or 60. Players will move realistically at those settings and get rid of the ease of just sprinting past someone.


EDIT: Can someone tell me if there was a tuner update today? Did one of those "Return to the main menu for an update" messages appear? I got on a half hour ago and I swear the PnR defense on default sliders is miles better than it was before today.

[EccentricMeat]

Someone else try these and let me know if I'm just crazy, or if the AI defense is pretty damn good against the PnR. Start on Hall of Fame and then make these adjustments for both USER and CPU:

Body-Up Sensitivity - 100

Drive Contact Shot Frequency - 100
Inside Contact Shot Frequency - 100
Layup Defense Strength (Takeoff) - 100
Layup Defense Strength (Release) - 75
Jump Shot Defense Strength (Gather) - 60
Jump Shot Defense Strength (Release) - 75
Help Defense Strength - 100

Acceleration - 40
On-Ball Defense - 75
Defensive Awareness - 75
Lateral Quickness - 75

Play Passing Lanes - 75
Contest Shots - 100

Speed with Ball (Max rating) - 55
Speed with Ball (Min rating) - 40
Acceleration with Ball (Max rating) - 60
Acceleration with Ball (Min rating) - 40
Speed without Ball (Max rating) - 75
Speed without Ball (Min rating) - 55
Acceleration without Ball (Max rating) - 75
Acceleration without Ball (Min rating) - 55

[ChaseB]

I do feel like a lot of this would be helped if the big just played a cleaner "drop" on the pick and roll as the default. Instead they get into weird hedging contests or trapping scenarios that don't work out well for them.

I understand it's hard to play a pick and roll 2 on 2, but since the help is spotty by default, a drop style would at least allow you to play it 2 on 2 and live with the mid range or running out to contest a pick and pop to the big.

(Also something I think has helped as a simple, base-level thing is just have the AI on "gap" for off-ball on everything and "moderate" on-ball.)