Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on release

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  • Smirkin Dirk
    All Star
    • Oct 2008
    • 5178

    #376
    Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

    The most remarkable thing is that this was the main selling point in the gameplay blog.

    This is from the blog.

    "But the one major focus for the team that we wanted to be priority one, was DEFENSE. So let’s get started."
    2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

    Comment

    • The 24th Letter
      ERA
      • Oct 2007
      • 39373

      #377
      Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

      Folks said it was too tough.

      and that's not limited to any section of the 2k community [emoji2377]

      Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

      Comment

      • vannwolfhawk
        MVP
        • Jun 2009
        • 3412

        #378
        Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

        I don’t think it was ever tough it was just a new game and players were not used to it but it was more just unrealistic. I said this before right after launch they were band aid fixing the help with tight sticky on ball defense. Now that is gone it sticks out like a sore thumb. But I believe it was there at 1 point though and I’ve seen some good things at times so it’s baffling.

        The 1st paragraph of this OP post is talking about bigs and sticky d. The problem now is they fixed that for small ball (which is good) but this is the reverse side and the bad side of doing that as it’s not balanced to do both. But at this point I’m fine with beating the pnr and big. It’s the help defense and rotations and that is what I have been saying since day 1 needs to be the 1st priority. Then everything can fall into place when that’s right with help, scrambles, and closeouts.

        I have recorded like 20 clips. The help doesn’t come or trigger til I’m hit the top of the paint. That’s way to late. The low corner defender needs to be on a string with the ball handler. Where he goes, I go… Basketball 101
        Basketball Playbooks
        http://www.nextplayhoops.com

        Comment

        • coolcras7
          MVP
          • Sep 2009
          • 2337

          #379
          Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

          Originally posted by vannwolfhawk
          I feel like OG is somewhere in Orlando sipping on some coffee, reading this thread, and laughing. So you thought this was easy huh? Lol
          Why his time with the defense was horrible.
          PSN=Coolcas7

          Comment

          • alabamarob
            MVP
            • Nov 2010
            • 3340

            #380
            Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

            Originally posted by The 24th Letter
            Folks said it was too tough.

            and that's not limited to any section of the 2k community [emoji2377]

            Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
            I can't agree with you hear 24th. Taking out help defense is not a response to people who play 5 v 5 nba teams. No one has said "why can't I get a straight line drive". I will give you the pnr defense, but there is no excuse for removing help on straight line drives. No one complained about that.
            Psn: Alabamarob
            Xbox: Alabama Rob

            Youtube: 2k Hawks

            Settings I play on.
            Minutes: 12
            Difficulty: HOF
            Online or Offline player: Both
            In a MLO: Yes

            Comment

            • Smirkin Dirk
              All Star
              • Oct 2008
              • 5178

              #381
              Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

              Originally posted by coolcras7
              Why his time with the defense was horrible.
              I posted some footage from 2K17 of the D doing something that it doesn't do now. I think too much was tried but much of it was strong and worked.

              The devs are capable of sorting out the incredibly complex task of producing a tough and realistiic defense.

              But...the main impediment seems to be commercial pressures. And let's face it; those of us who want a basketball simulation and love getting challenged have the least economic clout of all the 2K communities.

              We can post on here all day with our videos showing basketball concepts; but if 2K reddit starts blowing up about not being able to crossover and dunk every 2nd play, the game play decisions makers (not necessarily the devs) are more sensitive to that than anything we say.
              2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

              Comment

              • vannwolfhawk
                MVP
                • Jun 2009
                • 3412

                #382
                Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                Originally posted by coolcras7
                Why his time with the defense was horrible.
                That was my point.

                But clearly it’s not an easy fix. Or they just don’t have the logic in the game yet? Plus it’s a balancing act with other areas and ratings, etc. All need to work hand in hand for balance. But this is a basic logic and reaction timing thing IMO. This is why I hate band aid fixes. But I do think (hope) they will fix it.
                Basketball Playbooks
                http://www.nextplayhoops.com

                Comment

                • rjohns23
                  Pro
                  • Sep 2010
                  • 656

                  #383
                  Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                  Originally posted by vannwolfhawk
                  I agree with you but in this case I also just tested if we can help mitigate the issues.



                  I just captured video on each example from my previous post. It was easy to replicate each thing. I will try and figure out how to get on here. The post earlier is exactly the issues. No tag ever and the help triggering only when in the paint, big can’t stick with PNR ball handler, and help only on a pop or a drive not on the roll. Also changes in coverages after timeouts.



                  I also just tested upping every player globally to 99 help d iq. No change. Reactions were not any quicker, didn’t change any help logic. Then I put cpu d awareness at 99. Still no difference. This is 1 of those things they need to fix internally.



                  Will get videos here at some point.
                  So in essence ratings don't mean anything. Basically "majority" of the ratings are just like that intangible rating in where you increase it or decrease just to get the overall right.

                  If this is true, 2k has a lot of explaining to do lol

                  But I think its d*** near impossible to get the CPU to play "life like" defense. And when I say impossible, Im talking about the coding aspect. There's something that we, as the general public, would not understand and 2k will not release that information because of competitors and the such.

                  EVERY FREAKING YEAR they introduce some new defensive logic that will make defense a "priority" but all they do is make blocking easier and make it tougher to drive to the paint.

                  But this year I think they are headed into the right direction. It may be 2k24 before we see some real change.

                  Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

                  Comment

                  • coolcras7
                    MVP
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 2337

                    #384
                    Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                    Originally posted by vannwolfhawk
                    That was my point.

                    But clearly it’s not an easy fix. Or they just don’t have the logic in the game yet? Plus it’s a balancing act with other areas and ratings, etc. All need to work hand in hand for balance. But this is a basic logic and reaction timing thing IMO. This is why I hate band aid fixes. But I do think (hope) they will fix it.
                    there may not be a perfect solution, but 2k can do better. The reason the defense gets watered down is because 2k bows down to the online mypark community. The game at launch was alot different than it is now.
                    PSN=Coolcas7

                    Comment

                    • Smirkin Dirk
                      All Star
                      • Oct 2008
                      • 5178

                      #385
                      Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                      Originally posted by coolcras7
                      The game at launch was alot different than it is now.
                      I may uninstall the game, reinstall and switch the internet off and try this.

                      Ive uploaded my roster to 2k so I assume that will come back.
                      2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

                      Comment

                      • vannwolfhawk
                        MVP
                        • Jun 2009
                        • 3412

                        #386
                        Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                        Originally posted by Smirkin Dirk
                        I may uninstall the game, reinstall and switch the internet off and try this.

                        Ive uploaded my roster to 2k so I assume that will come back.
                        You can only do that with a disc though right? I’d be interested to see how the help d was at launch. Iirc though double teams and some d settings were locked. Does that mean they stay locked with no updates?
                        Basketball Playbooks
                        http://www.nextplayhoops.com

                        Comment

                        • Smirkin Dirk
                          All Star
                          • Oct 2008
                          • 5178

                          #387
                          Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                          Originally posted by vannwolfhawk
                          You can only do that with a disc though right? I’d be interested to see how the help d was at launch. Iirc though double teams and some d settings were locked. Does that mean they stay locked with no updates?
                          Ah of course, I forgot that was turned on. Im just super keen to remind myself what the help off the drive and pick and roll looked like.
                          2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

                          Comment

                          • vannwolfhawk
                            MVP
                            • Jun 2009
                            • 3412

                            #388
                            Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                            Originally posted by rjohns23
                            So in essence ratings don't mean anything. Basically "majority" of the ratings are just like that intangible rating in where you increase it or decrease just to get the overall right.

                            If this is true, 2k has a lot of explaining to do lol

                            But I think its d*** near impossible to get the CPU to play "life like" defense. And when I say impossible, Im talking about the coding aspect. There's something that we, as the general public, would not understand and 2k will not release that information because of competitors and the such.

                            EVERY FREAKING YEAR they introduce some new defensive logic that will make defense a "priority" but all they do is make blocking easier and make it tougher to drive to the paint.

                            But this year I think they are headed into the right direction. It may be 2k24 before we see some real change.

                            Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
                            No most work as intended. The help IQ seems to work in rotating to open man (scrambling) but not to go help on a drive quicker or in this situation with the pnr rotations and help. That seems built in and separate. At least that’s what I saw with everyone at 99 help iq. I’m sure that’s tied to ACE and the defensive settings.
                            Last edited by vannwolfhawk; 10-07-2021, 06:48 PM.
                            Basketball Playbooks
                            http://www.nextplayhoops.com

                            Comment

                            • The 24th Letter
                              ERA
                              • Oct 2007
                              • 39373

                              #389
                              Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                              Originally posted by alabamarob
                              I can't agree with you hear 24th. Taking out help defense is not a response to people who play 5 v 5 nba teams. No one has said "why can't I get a straight line drive". I will give you the pnr defense, but there is no excuse for removing help on straight line drives. No one complained about that.
                              Absolutely wasn't the solution. Agreed.

                              We can call it basic/fundamental, but we're literally living in the moment of how delicate the balance is with this stuff. Highly doubt it was a nefarious plot to nerf help defense (Not saying that you're saying that) but it's more like a trickle down effect. This doesn't benefit players of any mode tbh..

                              As far as who complained- Impressions Thread is right up top. We can blame everyone else, but sometimes we have to trust the process too.. Said the same thing in that thread.

                              I have faith though. I mean, we were there. This reminds me of 2K16's cycle where gameplay had a good base and needed to be ironed out. Czar may be in the lab about to drop a monster adjustment at any moment.

                              Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

                              Comment

                              • sperlz_99
                                Rookie
                                • Feb 2016
                                • 149

                                #390
                                Re: Please turn the help defense, and cutter help defense back to were it was on rele

                                Ive been playing the new fifa since October 1st so had a break from nba but let me get this right... they have broken pick and roll defense again???

                                That's unbelievable. Last year I bought 2k21 but had to sell it and took a hit on the money I paid because the game offline was broken. It was too easy to perform a pick and get a guaranteed score at the basket which made the game pointless and no challenge.

                                This year the game has been fixed in that respect and on that basis I bought it again. But your telling me they've broken it and now I have a game not fit for purpose?

                                I buy the game for offline modes only because the European servers are poor so now I have a game with the same problem 2k21 had again????

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