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Old 01-03-2017, 03:33 PM   #2617
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Re: JoshC1977's M17 Sliders

This is going to be a bit drawn-out and a little "all over the place" so bear with me....

Fatigue sliders

They work, but they also open-up the offense a fair bit. In true M17 fashion, it is a 'pick your poison' sort of battle. I ultimately feel that it opens a large can of worms, constantly trying to compensate and compensate for it. Without making major changes, you can't totally compensate for it....and those changes have a strong likelihood of 'breaking' something else. Schnaidt's method of compensating with thresh/DPI is one way to go...but it introduces its own set of issues. Again, pick your poison.

For completeness, one other method of tightening things up is to raise the MM facemask slider to 55. From my own testing, I found that raising the FM slider was more effective in tightening things up than DPI was....it's another option for those wanting to go down the 'rabbit hole'.

After a significant amount of testing; I have ultimately decided that the trade-offs are not worth it.


Ease of Passing
Every year, there are always comments/complaints from some people about how the user passing game is "too easy". I have invariably found that the issues result from 1 and/or 2 factors. Factor 1 is a lack of pressure (that is a slider/setting thing). Factor 2 is the user's playstyle; let's touch on that a second.

People complain about the CPU going "Robo QB" on them. What is "Robo QB"? Put simply, it is when they dink/dunk all over the place; taking the easiest throw possible and never challenging the defense (i.e. playing like Sam Bradford did this year...and what did he do, he set the all time record for completion percentage). It's annoying as crap to play against on Madden, we all know that, especially if there are pass rush issues.

Here's the kicker, I see many users doing this to the CPU all the time; If I were the CPU, I would gripe about the User going all 'Robo QB' on me. This is often coupled with people over-using the most OP passing plays in the game (i.e. meshes and crossing patterns)...something that sliders really can't fix. You can argue it is "smart football" and that's fine...if you want to play like Bradford, go for it....just know that your numbers may be more inflated as a result. Doing the dink/dunk is a valid 'football' strategy; but if real life NFL defenses gave up more than 70% comp to Bradford on the year, what do you think this will do to a programmed CPU opponent on Madden?

Gameplay has three components; the gameplay engine; the sliders/settings; and the user input. I have tried to keep the first two as stable as possible, but I can't do anything about the third...everyone has to assess this for themselves.

The state of the OP Set
I've spent a lot of time re-evaluating the OP set and where to go from here. The biggest issue is a general inability to run the ball (mainly for the CPU but it is also stifling for the user). A secondary issue is improving the general pass defense. I made adjustment after adjustment to try to correct these without rocking the boat...I even went to extremes...every change begatting more and more issues. (As a note: I was also seeing a trend where second halves of games where way more high-scoring.)

So, taking a step back, I asked myself. Why is this happening? What is occurring on the field leading to this issue.

For the run game, the issue was two-fold; tackling was overpowering to the RBs and the LBs were to them consistently early. In short, defenses were just overly-aggressive and the offense was unable to compensate for the imbalance.

The passing game is a bit more complex. While I play an aggressive style of QB, I also feel that there have been way too many INTs and pass deflections with the OP (for both sides). Additionally, I've been seeing issues where the DBs would slow down in coverage, trying to play the QB more than the receiver. Watch their heads, you will often see the DBs following the QB, trying to read the ball and jogging more (which leads to more separation). I also see issues with safeties and LBs over-reacting (more often than ratings would suggest)...leaving the zones more wide open. Again, all issues pointing to the defense being too aggressive,

So, what in the OP would cause this? We know that the injury slider is a factor...but, I truly believe that this should be set to 50 in the main menu to match the CFM as it has been in past years. What else do we have; that MM set to All Madden, which is more aggressive by nature. BUT, we're asking for "AP level" players (from CFM settings) to compensate for AM level aggression (from MM). And there, we have our imbalance.

I am thus evaluating three changes to the OP:
  • Main Menu to All Pro
  • Ballhawk "on"
  • Heat Seeker "on
All three changes push the pile closer to default. I got a game in last night as BUF versus NE. It was a terrific game and the ratings really shone through better. The CPU had close to 150 yards rushing (my outclassed line struggled to move the ball on the ground...especially to the right...a little better luck running to the left where I had Glenn). Lineplay was surprisingly good as well...I was harried many times by the NE pass rush and there were few of those annoying plays where Brady could stand in the pocket for 10 seconds (I also saw him move in the pocket and even shake off a sack attempt....first time I have seen that all year). Brady completed just under 71% of his passes while Taylor was under 50% (with numerous mis-fires on intermediate throws). The Zone coverage came back (Collins was a beast covering the TE corner patterns in zone) and M2M was appropriately solid.

I obviously need more games to know for sure....but this was most definitely a promising start. The question will be one of variety in outcomes and ensuring that the difficulty is still there. I will say one thing, this was easily the most enjoyable game I have played of Madden in quite a while.
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Last edited by JoshC1977; 01-03-2017 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 01-03-2017, 04:26 PM   #2618
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Thumbs up Re: JoshC1977's M17 Sliders

Nice work, Josh, I'm excited as all get go on this.
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Old 01-03-2017, 04:58 PM   #2619
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Re: JoshC1977's M17 Sliders

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadman
Nice work, Josh, I'm excited as all get go on this.
I'm glad someone else is too. Of course, it never fails.....I have a long weekend, do lots of testing, and then hit on a potential breakthrough the night before I head back to work. It has happened to me SO many times.....I just want to hunker down and get some games in now.

This may not be a perfect setup; but from what I have seen, it definitely looks and feels much more balanced....and that is a much better place to start. In my loss last night, I felt like I was defeated by a better team/players, not by the sliders.
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Old 01-03-2017, 05:38 PM   #2620
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Re: JoshC1977's M17 Sliders

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC1977
I'm glad someone else is too. Of course, it never fails.....I have a long weekend, do lots of testing, and then hit on a potential breakthrough the night before I head back to work. It has happened to me SO many times.....I just want to hunker down and get some games in now.

This may not be a perfect setup; but from what I have seen, it definitely looks and feels much more balanced....and that is a much better place to start. In my loss last night, I felt like I was defeated by a better team/players, not by the sliders.


for me...when i say passing is too easy...i simply meant there arent any inaccurate throws....there is do difference in passing accuracy between mark sanchez and brady/rodgers.

while i am losing to the cpu, many times it is because of turnovers...and closer than it really should be, simply because as long as i make the right decision, all my passes are perfectly on target.

bumping up the threshold, while something you dont agree with, at least for me has made the passing windows and coverage tighter and smaller, thus making it more difficult for me to find the right decision, thus lowering my pass completion percentage.

i would much rather just see the affects of a poor qb and have over throws and off target throws....

i know that has been like the most impossible thing to find since they messed up qb accuracy with the patch.

I will do a try some of your changes with what i been playing on, I will keep main menu at All madden for now, But I will turn on ball hawk and heat seeker.

i will also try raising facemask to 55.

Ill let you know how it goes.
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Old 01-03-2017, 06:07 PM   #2621
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Re: JoshC1977's M17 Sliders

Josh, I decided to update my slider set with the 3 changes I am rocking to your set...I give you full credit for everything in the OP, but you said you felt like the 100 threshold was like a completely different slider set, so i thought i would post it for others if they were curious in going that route.

I wanted to post gameplay of an amazing game i had this morning,

100 threshold, 75 dpi, 51 roughing the passer.






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Old 01-03-2017, 08:47 PM   #2622
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Re: JoshC1977's M17 Sliders

Awesome stuff Schnaidt, if you've found something you're pleased with, absolutely rock it! There are going to be people that are going to like it more than they like the direction I am going (and vice versa...). Glad you posted it in your own thread, I would hate for it to get buried here in my thread...it's a different concept and approach...as I drift closer and closer to default. I'll keep following....
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:59 PM   #2623
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Re: JoshC1977's M17 Sliders

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC1977
This is going to be a bit drawn-out and a little "all over the place" so bear with me....

Fatigue sliders

They work, but they also open-up the offense a fair bit. In true M17 fashion, it is a 'pick your poison' sort of battle. I ultimately feel that it opens a large can of worms, constantly trying to compensate and compensate for it. Without making major changes, you can't totally compensate for it....and those changes have a strong likelihood of 'breaking' something else. Schnaidt's method of compensating with thresh/DPI is one way to go...but it introduces its own set of issues. Again, pick your poison.

For completeness, one other method of tightening things up is to raise the MM facemask slider to 55. From my own testing, I found that raising the FM slider was more effective in tightening things up than DPI was....it's another option for those wanting to go down the 'rabbit hole'.

After a significant amount of testing; I have ultimately decided that the trade-offs are not worth it.


Ease of Passing
Every year, there are always comments/complaints from some people about how the user passing game is "too easy". I have invariably found that the issues result from 1 and/or 2 factors. Factor 1 is a lack of pressure (that is a slider/setting thing). Factor 2 is the user's playstyle; let's touch on that a second.

People complain about the CPU going "Robo QB" on them. What is "Robo QB"? Put simply, it is when they dink/dunk all over the place; taking the easiest throw possible and never challenging the defense (i.e. playing like Sam Bradford did this year...and what did he do, he set the all time record for completion percentage). It's annoying as crap to play against on Madden, we all know that, especially if there are pass rush issues.

Here's the kicker, I see many users doing this to the CPU all the time; If I were the CPU, I would gripe about the User going all 'Robo QB' on me. This is often coupled with people over-using the most OP passing plays in the game (i.e. meshes and crossing patterns)...something that sliders really can't fix. You can argue it is "smart football" and that's fine...if you want to play like Bradford, go for it....just know that your numbers may be more inflated as a result. Doing the dink/dunk is a valid 'football' strategy; but if real life NFL defenses gave up more than 70% comp to Bradford on the year, what do you think this will do to a programmed CPU opponent on Madden?

Gameplay has three components; the gameplay engine; the sliders/settings; and the user input. I have tried to keep the first two as stable as possible, but I can't do anything about the third...everyone has to assess this for themselves.

The state of the OP Set
I've spent a lot of time re-evaluating the OP set and where to go from here. The biggest issue is a general inability to run the ball (mainly for the CPU but it is also stifling for the user). A secondary issue is improving the general pass defense. I made adjustment after adjustment to try to correct these without rocking the boat...I even went to extremes...every change begatting more and more issues. (As a note: I was also seeing a trend where second halves of games where way more high-scoring.)

So, taking a step back, I asked myself. Why is this happening? What is occurring on the field leading to this issue.

For the run game, the issue was two-fold; tackling was overpowering to the RBs and the LBs were to them consistently early. In short, defenses were just overly-aggressive and the offense was unable to compensate for the imbalance.

The passing game is a bit more complex. While I play an aggressive style of QB, I also feel that there have been way too many INTs and pass deflections with the OP (for both sides). Additionally, I've been seeing issues where the DBs would slow down in coverage, trying to play the QB more than the receiver. Watch their heads, you will often see the DBs following the QB, trying to read the ball and jogging more (which leads to more separation). I also see issues with safeties and LBs over-reacting (more often than ratings would suggest)...leaving the zones more wide open. Again, all issues pointing to the defense being too aggressive,

So, what in the OP would cause this? We know that the injury slider is a factor...but, I truly believe that this should be set to 50 in the main menu to match the CFM as it has been in past years. What else do we have; that MM set to All Madden, which is more aggressive by nature. BUT, we're asking for "AP level" players (from CFM settings) to compensate for AM level aggression (from MM). And there, we have our imbalance.

I am thus evaluating three changes to the OP:
  • Main Menu to All Pro
  • Ballhawk "on"
  • Heat Seeker "on
All three changes push the pile closer to default. I got a game in last night as BUF versus NE. It was a terrific game and the ratings really shone through better. The CPU had close to 150 yards rushing (my outclassed line struggled to move the ball on the ground...especially to the right...a little better luck running to the left where I had Glenn). Lineplay was surprisingly good as well...I was harried many times by the NE pass rush and there were few of those annoying plays where Brady could stand in the pocket for 10 seconds (I also saw him move in the pocket and even shake off a sack attempt....first time I have seen that all year). Brady completed just under 71% of his passes while Taylor was under 50% (with numerous mis-fires on intermediate throws). The Zone coverage came back (Collins was a beast covering the TE corner patterns in zone) and M2M was appropriately solid.

I obviously need more games to know for sure....but this was most definitely a promising start. The question will be one of variety in outcomes and ensuring that the difficulty is still there. I will say one thing, this was easily the most enjoyable game I have played of Madden in quite a while.
Sorry if I missed it but are the three changes you suggested, all in MM?
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Old 01-04-2017, 08:08 AM   #2624
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Re: JoshC1977's M17 Sliders

Josh, I tried your new changes last night and the game felt more organic to me.

Now, here is a few disclaimers before I proceed:

I've been using online instead of offline, I didn't know if there was a difference, and over the past few months, I've been using current rosters vs preseason rosters because I wanted Ty Montgomery as a RB.

Other than that, here is what I noticed after a one game sample size.

Ratings matter, period.

The Packers sacked Bradford 8 times and people may think, 8 times? The Vikings OL is terrible and I was seeing the DL disengage is some of the battles on the line. I didn't see that much of that before.

Bradford stood motionless a few times in the pocket for awhile. Using the AM settings, Bradford would have sat in the pocket for awhile 50% of the game. I did see him try to get away from the rush a few times. He didn't stand like a robot each time he was sacked.

Bradford threw for close to 350 yds, but had 3 picks and a 66% completion percentage. I did see about 4 or 5 inaccurate passes from Bradford. I saw him throw one into the stands in the redzone with a perfectly timed blitz. I noticed LB's batting down balls, a few of those batted balls became int's.

Rodgers (me) hit 68% of his passes with no int's. The no int's is significant because I would average 24 int's per season with Rodgers with the prior settings and that is very unusual for Rodgers.

The running game was a mess, but the Vikings were in behind mode for the second half. I'm ok with the running game w/avg's of 3ypc for the Packers and the Vikings avg 2.6 yds per carry because the Vikes are not a strong running team and the Vikes are good against the run on defense.

I'm like you, I need to find the time to delete the cloud franchise and start all over again in offline franchise, but I am strongly encouraged by last nights results, albeit a small sample size.

Nice work.
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