Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

[Yesh2kdone]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

Archetypes in general, for me, have really made mycareer a lot less enjoyable. I was watching Smoove's 2k14 career the other day as I was bored, and in the same game I saw him posterize a couple of guys and hit a string of 3's, and also be a playmaker.

The fun he is having in career mode is evident in his voice, especially compared to the last 2 years.

In 2k14 and 15, I created a KD type build, a Steph Curry, a Lebron, A Kobe/MJ, and enjoyed them massively. The fun is being drained out. I don't want a career where I'm so limited; part of the fun for me was creating these allworld players that were great at everything. I understand why this has been changed over the last couple of years, but the changes have happened at the cost of fun and longevity.

I can still put up otherworldly career numbers, but it's more a process of repetition, than varied unadulterated fun like it was in years past.

I also lived in the park/pro-am/rec up until 17 dropped, and then I noticed the repetition of how archetypes worked, and it instantly became a snoozefest.

Now that we know the e-league players will be given set players to play with rather than archetypes, there is no reason not to go back to pre-2k16 players.

[franzis]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

I don't know man, in pro am it can be already difficult to set up a balanced team despite the archetypes.


If we go back to the demi-gods days and with the great-in-everyting players, it will be almost impossible to have someone interested in making a role-player/specialist

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

You sure can, but that was not my point. The break starter badge is just illogical. A 7'3 C glass cleaner is piss poor in passing in general (53 passing accuracy) but suddenly can throw accurate long full court bombs regularly after a rebound? That makes no sense to me...

Are you sure? Im sure a lot of players, especially the younger generation, likes to replicate their idols and favourite players in 2k. Problem is, with the current archetype system you cant. Take any current superstar and its impossible to model him. Kahwi Leonard? You certainly want the defensive archetype somewhere, at least secondary, id say primary would fit even better. Do this and you take away a huge portion away from his offensive capabilities, especially if you make it primary...

My notion here was that out the gate 2K is not using these archetypes as clones of the archetypal superstars. We are building off their strengths but there was no intention to model them with identical ratings and badges.

This seems obvious after my clarification; you just happen to misunderstand me. I understand now that you do want it to be more in that direction towards matching the Superstars strengths and badges at their same size.

Some archetypes also make no sense. Why are slashing and layups tied together? Is Kyrie Irving known for his slashing?

Give us the freedom to choose the badges we want and the things we want to excel at. To avoid exploitation or anything simply tie badge tiers to attribute tiers. If you want a badge on hof level you have to have 90+ on certain attributes, if you want gold you need 80+ and so on. Free attribute allocation would perfectly complement that, but I understand the problems that come with this, because the min/max guys would find ways to break the system and its the hardest system for a game developer to maintain game balance.

In response to everything: I understand you clearly now! I didn't mean to stifle the creative flow of ideas coming from you. The original post just seemed short with a grumpy attitude and that alone doesn't do much for supporting the flow of ideas. It's appreciated to understand you better now and see what more you envision / wish for out of the mode!





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[Foldzy]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

I wish they'd give you at least a little bit of flexibility and choice when it comes to badges, I like to pass the ball a lot with my slashing post scorer but I can't get dimer or break starter. Meanwhile I have acrobat and one man fast break at 7'3" 300lbs

[ph33]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

Some archetypes also make no sense. Why are slashing and layups tied together? Is Kyrie Irving known for his slashing?

I agreed with most of what you said but I had to address this. Hell yes Kyrie is known for his "slashing" (In 2k terms) --- just without the posterizer badge, lol

If we go back to the demi-gods days and with the great-in-everyting players, it will be almost impossible to have someone interested in making a role-player/specialist

I agree with you on that but I think people will have to have these roles on a team anyways, even if everyone's got a demigod build. Some people are just naturally more comfortable off-ball anyways. And I liked it when everybody could move their feet quickly on defense

[franzis]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

I wish they'd give you at least a little bit of flexibility and choice when it comes to badges, I like to pass the ball a lot with my slashing post scorer but I can't get dimer or break starter. Meanwhile I have acrobat and one man fast break at 7'3" 300lbs

Here I'm with you at 100%.


We should be allowed to have some extra upgrades and badges (maybe once hit 90 ovr) to spend wherever we want.


If I want to have bronze corner specialist or a couple of extra updgrades in lateral quickness for my pure slasher, I should be able to do it.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

What If we could choose our 5 HOF badges and have those 5 dictate our top 5 corresponding ratings?

Imagine:

Build 1

HOF on Limitless, Catch & Shoot, Posterizer, One man Fast Break , & Ankle Breaker

Build 2

HOF on Break Starter, Hustle Rebounder, Limitless Range, Posterizer, Defensive Stopper

Build 3

HOF on Defensive Stopper, Pick Pocket, Posterizer, 1MFB, Corner Specialist

The secondary supporting ratings would also tail off from these ratings that head the build. Secondary ratings such as Strength that relates to dunking but not directly or solely for Posterizer, and Speed with Ball that relates to ball control but not directly or solely to Ankle Breaker.

This flexibility will bring you closer to the true Superstars. My Career in essence started with this flexibility and this is part of its lifeblood imo and should be kept this way imo. It should be the mode to explore this almost unlimited range of Peak Performance.

Where it becomes a challenge is in thr Online community. Would you tolerate Ankle Breaker and Limitless on Centers and Power Forwards? These are the same builds you'd be facing against users unless something was done to separate the limitations.

If we leave the archetype building to anything our imagination can conjure up it can still be balanced within the limits on badge counts. You do need to consider what this mode has grown into in respect to online skill levels. Imagine the nature of the beast when you're plotted against 6ft10 Small Forwards who are dribbling, shooting and dunking at elite levels. They are probably also playing elite defense by virtue of height. This offensive juggernaut could very well be countered by a defensive stud so the verdict from the jury is still out on whether this is a beast we can control our whether this is a beast that will ruin us in peer vs peer.



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[Yesh2kdone]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

I don't know man, in pro am it can be already difficult to set up a balanced team despite the archetypes.


If we go back to the demi-gods days and with the great-in-everyting players, it will be almost impossible to have someone interested in making a role-player/specialist

If everyone is great at everything, then a role playing/specialist is defunct. It's a computer game where fun and enjoyment should be the priority. Rec was awesome back in 15, as was park. I've watched a few comp games and it's depressingly bad (imo) watching shooting archetypes stand on the sides whilst a playmaker/shotmaker/sharpmaker iso's and runs PnR. Obviously they're good players, but what kind of existence is that to have in a computer game?

The problem were the 7ft SF's and then the 7'2 PG glitch. That would be easier to combat. Just give SF's a max height of 6'8 (PF's can max at 6'10/6'11), and bring max speed down to 85ish, then just max centers height at 7'1 and bring the max speed down to 60ish.

2k15 with this, instantly becomes a better online/offline game. In order to make archetypes viable, they've had to introduce HoF badges, which end up pigeon-holing players even more to retreat into their archetypes.

[3ShowTime2]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

In response to everything: I understand you clearly now! I didn't mean to stifle the creative flow of ideas coming from you. The original post just seemed short with a grumpy attitude and that alone doesn't do much for supporting the flow of ideas. It's appreciated to understand you better now and see what more you envision / wish for out of the mode!

Got you, no problem. Never wanted to come up with a grumpy attitude...

Where it becomes a challenge is in thr Online community. Would you tolerate Ankle Breaker and Limitless on Centers and Power Forwards? These are the same builds you'd be facing against users unless something was done to separate the limitations.

Exactly, the more freedom you allow the harder it becomes to maintain balance. Online players would find ways to create demigods. 2k would have to find ways to create balanced limitations tied to player size and athleticism & speed. Yes Porzingis has awesome ball handles for a 7'3, but will he ever break ankles? Probably not. Imo speed with ball should be seperated from general ballhandling and should then be limited by player size?

[franzis]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

If everyone is great at everything, then a role playing/specialist is defunct. It's a computer game where fun and enjoyment should be the priority. Rec was awesome back in 15, as was park. I've watched a few comp games and it's depressingly bad (imo) watching shooting archetypes stand on the sides whilst a playmaker/shotmaker/sharpmaker iso's and runs PnR. Obviously they're good players, but what kind of existence is that to have in a computer game?

The problem were the 7ft SF's and then the 7'2 PG glitch. That would be easier to combat. Just give SF's a max height of 6'8 (PF's can max at 6'10/6'11), and bring max speed down to 85ish, then just max centers height at 7'1 and bring the max speed down to 60ish.

2k15 with this, instantly becomes a better online/offline game. In order to make archetypes viable, they've had to introduce HoF badges, which end up pigeon-holing players even more to retreat into their archetypes.

So how would you run an offense of 5 people great at everything and how would you defend against 5 people great at everything ?


That's my doubt

[Yesh2kdone]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

So how would you run an offense of 5 people great at everything and how would you defend against 5 people great at everything ?


That's my doubt

That's a fair concern. Have you seen any of the pro-am? No one is running an offence; it's all 5 out, with 4 dudes on the sides and the pg iso-ing/PnR. 2k15 rec center was a better, more enjoyable experience. If everyone is good at everything, then the defensive stats and badges for the guys defending will also be boosted to combat it.

I just know that since archetypes have been introduced, the experience has regressed massively, and I'd like to get the fun of 14/15 back where there was also skill gap because players couldn't just rely on HoF limitless range hiding behind HoF brick wall.

To be considered a baller and a prospect in the current game, you can just stand in the corner and learn how long to consistently press a button for.

[DakkoN]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

To be considered a baller and a prospect in the current game, you can just stand in the corner and learn how long to consistently press a button for.

This is going to be one of the only games in history with an e-league where the players that are getting paid thousands to play aren't much better (if they are even better at all) than the people sitting at home.

I can honestly say that out of all the top teams that I've played against for as long as Pro-Am/Crew has been in the game, that I've never been impressed by the skill level displayed. The games that I've lost, I can never ever remember being wowed by my opponents after losing. It's usually because they can do an unguardable cheese move, or have a team full of the "press Square to win" archetypes that lets them shoot 75% from the coach's box, or grab rebounds over 4 guys and then do a standing contact dunk in a crowded paint, without even having a brain. In 2K16, I remember playing Homicide Gang when they were #1, and they only beat my team of 4 players by 7 points because I knew how to get shots against their lame zone but our CPU player shot 0 for 7. The same year, we played Shoot First whenever they were ranked as a top 10 team, and we beat them by 30+.. Have played many other top 25 teams over the course of 3 years and not once was I ever amazed by anyone on the other team's skill. It was just a cheese fest of limitless 3's behind brick walls.

The only difference in the top teams are who can cheese better, and who has 4 teammates who don't get bored by having to stand in the corner holding charge button for entire games. It's honestly ridiculous the amount of nonsense that goes on in the "top" play of this game that people can get by with. It's sad that the players for the e-league are just going to be players from these top teams that have racked up stats and wins only because they play in the cheesiest of cheese offense with their two 7'3" 3-2 zone defenses.

[Yesh2kdone]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

This is going to be one of the only games in history with an e-league where the players that are getting paid thousands to play aren't much better (if they are even better at all) than the people sitting at home.

I can honestly say that out of all the top teams that I've played against for as long as Pro-Am/Crew has been in the game, that I've never been impressed by the skill level displayed. The games that I've lost, I can never ever remember being wowed by my opponents after losing. It's usually because they can do an unguardable cheese move, or have a team full of the "press Square to win" archetypes that lets them shoot 75% from the coach's box, or grab rebounds over 4 guys and then do a standing contact dunk in a crowded paint, without even having a brain. In 2K16, I remember playing Homicide Gang when they were #1, and they only beat my team of 4 players by 7 points because I knew how to get shots against their lame zone but our CPU player shot 0 for 7. The same year, we played Shoot First whenever they were ranked as a top 10 team, and we beat them by 30+.. Have played many other top 25 teams over the course of 3 years and not once was I ever amazed by anyone on the other team's skill. It was just a cheese fest of limitless 3's behind brick walls.

The only difference in the top teams are who can cheese better, and who has 4 teammates who don't get bored by having to stand in the corner holding charge button for entire games. It's honestly ridiculous the amount of nonsense that goes on in the "top" play of this game that people can get by with. It's sad that the players for the e-league are just going to be players from these top teams that have racked up stats and wins only because they play in the cheesiest of cheese offense with their two 7'3" 3-2 zone defenses.

And the youtubers that the teams were sending gifts/presents to before qualification even began.

[ph33]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

I can't wait to see what kind of drama unfolds if/when someone gets taken from those teams and others are left out. I find it comical when I'm watching a stream (I was last night) and when things unravel you hear everybody start bitching and blaming each other.

I do wonder how they plan on picking bigs and smalls. Most of the big men I see from top teams are either stretch bigs or bigs that just find that one zone under the basket that's incredibly difficult to stop. Rarely see them work the post or set off ball screens. Don't even know if they're good passers.

So...do they pick people with high basketball IQ or just high 2k IQ?

[Housh123]

Re: Dual Archetypes Confirmed... Thoughts? Combinations?

I can't wait to see what kind of drama unfolds if/when someone gets taken from those teams and others are left out. I find it comical when I'm watching a stream (I was last night) and when things unravel you hear everybody start bitching and blaming each other.

I do wonder how they plan on picking bigs and smalls. Most of the big men I see from top teams are either stretch bigs or bigs that just find that one zone under the basket that's incredibly difficult to stop. Rarely see them work the post or set off ball screens. Don't even know if they're good passers.

So...do they pick people with high basketball IQ or just high 2k IQ?

High 2k cheese


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