LXXVII Spawn III: Game Over (See Post 4507)

[Alan T]

To reiterate what I said earlier about the exhaustion stuff..

Status – Exhausted

Exhaustion places a person at a disadvantage for all attacks. Further some actions may have a slight chance of failure if you are exhausted. You may only have one status Exhausted at a time. If you continue to push yourself, you simply remain exhausted.

Anytime you take an action at night, you become exhausted.

A player may choose to "Stay Awake" by PM’ing the GM. That night he will also gain a trait of "Resistant" since he'll see any Spawn coming. Someone who is already exhausted may not take advantage of "Stay Awake".

Exhaustion can be healed after one night of undisturbed rest. Undisturbed rest is defined as not taking an action. Spawn who attack have a small chance of becoming exhausted (which is increased any time there is a Spawnling attack, especially for those who performed the attack).

The way I read that is the default state for a spawn after an attack is rested... but no member of our crew should be rested after tonight with the possible exception of our Slayer role... Whomever is the slayer might want to consider not using it tonight so you don't get mistaken for a spawn.

[Tyrith]

Keep in mind what I said earlier.. People who were spawnlings at latest become spawn tommorrow.. so still chance on people switching sides..

Second not all spawn know who each other are.. so they in some cases vote just as blindly as we do.

As I mentioned during our earlier debates, I think early voting records are fairly meaningless in this game.. I don't think anyone should put too much emphasis on them.

Well, the eldest three spawn would all know who the others are. Do you think there were more than three spawn left after today? Further, especially in the case of Telle, we have to remember the probability game -- how much would the wolves want to vote for someone with such a good chance of being a spawn or spawnling? Not going to lie, I think the sequence of votes on Day 3 is useful -- of course, it puts me in a good light but I was RIGHT, so I'll toot my own horn a little :P

[Tyrith]

Alan, I'm pretty sure someone who doesn't sleep will still wind up exhausted, spawn, slayer, or otherwise. The exhaustion for spawn thing just works the opposite -- them showing up exhausted would they shouldn't is a sign that they could be troublemakers. I highly doubt it works in reverse.

[KWhit]

Yeah, if the slave pen is repaired tonight and I'm still alive tommorrow then I'll kill off the slaves.. if I die over night I assume kwhit will kill off the slaves tommorrow..

At this point I feel that I did everything as captain to help us win that I could in my role.. so if I die once the slaves are dead, I'll consider it a personal victory.

Of course I will.

[Alan T]

Well, the eldest three spawn would all know who the others are. Do you think there were more than three spawn left after today? Further, especially in the case of Telle, we have to remember the probability game -- how much would the wolves want to vote for someone with such a good chance of being a spawn or spawnling? Not going to lie, I think the sequence of votes on Day 3 is useful -- of course, it puts me in a good light but I was RIGHT, so I'll toot my own horn a little :P


I think it is possible that either or both Telle and LSG got infected while outside the planet, so because of that they wouldn't necessarily be known by the spawn council. Barkeep listed both Telle and LSG as simple spawn in the death list, but I'm not sure if he would fully list spawn with other roles (such as spawn queen) or if he would also list them just as a spawn.

[Alan T]

Alan, I'm pretty sure someone who doesn't sleep will still wind up exhausted, spawn, slayer, or otherwise. The exhaustion for spawn thing just works the opposite -- them showing up exhausted would they shouldn't is a sign that they could be troublemakers. I highly doubt it works in reverse.

Possibly.. I'm just speculating alot tonight, so I may be off base.

[Tyrith]

Bleh, you have a point, but I still think the voting record has some value -- even if we're working with probabilities and not certainties.

[Barkeep49]

I think it is possible that either or both Telle and LSG got infected while outside the planet, so because of that they wouldn't necessarily be known by the spawn council. Barkeep listed both Telle and LSG as simple spawn in the death list, but I'm not sure if he would fully list spawn with other roles (such as spawn queen) or if he would also list them just as a spawn.
It's been asked privately so I'll answer publicly: you will learn what spawn role they had, if any, on death.

[Alan T]

Tyrith,

I will say though if I were to take your side of the arguement, this vote really doesn't look good for Passacaglia who didn't really have the most confident vote on Telle yesterday and then today was pushing the vote completely elsewhere and when no one went with him he voted Bullet instead of LSG.

So of course my suspicion of him that I already had was just increased again if you are right and I am wrong about them knowing LSG and/or Telle were a spawn.

Render you might want to consider making someone new a Warden just in case Pass is bad, we'd lose the brig for even longer if people vote him tommorrow...

[Tyrith]

It's been asked privately so I'll answer publicly: you will learn what spawn role they had, if any, on death.

Which adds a lot of merit to your case, Alan.

[Alan T]

It's been asked privately so I'll answer publicly: you will learn what spawn role they had, if any, on death.


Ok, with this, I'm still thinking neither LSG or Telle were part of the spawn council, so the chance that other spawn knew who they were definitely isn't 100%... And I realize I can't argue both sides of this arguement in regards to Passacaglia. I'm just trying to think all possibilities through.

[Tyrith]

Tyrith,

I will say though if I were to take your side of the arguement, this vote really doesn't look good for Passacaglia who didn't really have the most confident vote on Telle yesterday and then today was pushing the vote completely elsewhere and when no one went with him he voted Bullet instead of LSG.

So of course my suspicion of him that I already had was just increased again if you are right and I am wrong about them knowing LSG and/or Telle were a spawn.

Render you might want to consider making someone new a Warden just in case Pass is bad, we'd lose the brig for even longer if people vote him tommorrow...

I think we've had enough problems with Pass at this point that it's time to do something with him, whether it involves a noose or an invasive rectal probe.

[oliegirl]

Awesome lynch guys...I got home about 10 minutes ago and just about ran to the computer to see what had happened. I tried to log in on my blackberry but it was giving me fits (I think it's time to swap my pearl for hubby's curve!). I'm in and out over the weekend...

:)

[Alan T]

Also someone do the math for me please what the chance of Telle, LSG and Saldana all becoming infected off the ship?

I can't imagine that either Telle or LSG were spawn convert targets on the ship as people knew they might eventually take heat or get votes for leaving the ship.. so I really think if they didn't start spawn, they got infected off of the ship... So someone better in math than me, tell me what the chance of all three getting infected is?

[Chubby]

alright I'm heading to bed since I believe we have til monday morning and I need to decide which area I want to hang out in and scope for spawn activity.

[Barkeep49]

Also someone do the math for me please what the chance of Telle, LSG and Saldana all becoming infected off the ship?

I can't imagine that either Telle or LSG were spawn convert targets on the ship as people knew they might eventually take heat or get votes for leaving the ship.. so I really think if they didn't start spawn, they got infected off of the ship... So someone better in math than me, tell me what the chance of all three getting infected is?
Call on me! Call on me!
I know! I know!

[Alan T]

Call on me! Call on me!
I know! I know!

I have a different question for you! You'll get it via PM soon! :)


(I know you can't wait)

[Tyrith]

Also someone do the math for me please what the chance of Telle, LSG and Saldana all becoming infected off the ship?

I can't imagine that either Telle or LSG were spawn convert targets on the ship as people knew they might eventually take heat or get votes for leaving the ship.. so I really think if they didn't start spawn, they got infected off of the ship... So someone better in math than me, tell me what the chance of all three getting infected is?

Well, it seems like in this game that the chance of each person getting effected is entirely independent. So whether or not LSG and Telle were spawn does not matter; saldana is either a spawn or not based on his own time spent outside. The probability of all three of them being spawn would serve merely as an interested fact.

[PurdueBrad]

I've got a crap load of catching up to do I'm sure. Just got back from the game, sorry.

[Barkeep49]

I've got a crap load of catching up to do I'm sure. Just got back from the game, sorry.
No need to apologize. The Cubs won.

[Passacaglia]

I can see where you guys are coming from against me. But, what if bulletsponge is also bad?

[Tyrith]

I can see where you guys are coming from against me. But, what if bulletsponge is also bad?

Oh, don't worry, he's probably got something coming. But at this point, you're due for a dose, too.

[PurdueBrad]

WOW, great job with the lynch guys. I'll admit, I probably would've voted Bulletsponge so I would've blown that possibly.

I got a PM that is interesting, I have to read the rules to figure out exactly what it means.

I am not putting in an order for working on the slave pens.

[PurdueBrad]

That should read: I am now putting in an order for working on the slave pens.

[PurdueBrad]

Also, song is coming tomorrow. I'm beat, have a headache (too much beer) and I think it is sleepy time.

[mccollins]

Once again the cold hand of death approaches one of the crew. This time it is Lonestargirl whose time has expired. The mob, after last night’s victory, descends upon her ruthlessly. And when the crowd is done they step back to examine the carnage and they find

a SPAWN!.


Now no one is going to miss you.

[The Jackal]

Nice result!

[Danny]

Purduebrad, was the breakdown of where we go again tonight?

[Danny]

Oh and I might have voted for Bulletsponge as well. Still might soon

[PackerFanatic]

Well, the Brewers lost, but we got another spawn. Huzzah!

[bulletsponge]

hmmm just a theory, but both spawns have been women. did barkeep pull a "girlpower" thing and make oliegirl or saldana the other spawn(s)

then again one could have been converted, so nevermind

[Alan T]

hmmm just a theory, but both spawns have been women. did barkeep pull a "girlpower" thing and make oliegirl or saldana the other spawn(s)

then again one could have been converted, so nevermind

This is like the third or fourth game in a row that someone has mentioned this theory.. I know you haven't been playing the others so probably didn't even know... but this theory is quickly becoming a pet peeve of mine!

The only good reoccuring theory that I know of is if Hoops is alive on day 5 he must be a wolf... ;)

[PackerFanatic]

This is like the third or fourth game in a row that someone has mentioned this theory.. I know you haven't been playing the others so probably didn't even know... but this theory is quickly becoming a pet peeve of mine!

The only good reoccuring theory that I know of is if Hoops is alive on day 5 he must be a wolf... ;)

And another in which someone things that sal is a woman...

[Passacaglia]

Oh, don't worry, he's probably got something coming. But at this point, you're due for a dose, too.

What I mean is, if bullet is bad, then my vote doesn't look bad at all.

[Mrs. Schmidty]

2 down and .... to go! :)

Great job guys - I look forward to a productive weekend of info sharing/finding. I'll be in and out tomorrow and out all day Sunday (driving down to Oregon).

[Danny]

I'll be around off and on over the weekend as well. The next day we have an empath and two scans assuming none of those three are killed. Who does everyone feel is the best scan target?

Chubby is a good one because clearing him could clear two people depending on who he empaths. I know some have suggested me and I would like that since I do have an ability and it would be helpful for you guys to trust me if I ever do find a spawn through it. Who do others think we be a good target?

[RendeR]

Wait......Saldana's a CHICK???









;)

[saldana]

hmmm just a theory, but both spawns have been women. did barkeep pull a "girlpower" thing and make oliegirl or saldana the other spawn(s)

then again one could have been converted, so nevermind

ha ha ha.......dick;)

[Alan T]

I'll be around off and on over the weekend as well. The next day we have an empath and two scans assuming none of those three are killed. Who does everyone feel is the best scan target?

Chubby is a good one because clearing him could clear two people depending on who he empaths. I know some have suggested me and I would like that since I do have an ability and it would be helpful for you guys to trust me if I ever do find a spawn through it. Who do others think we be a good target?


Actually Chubby's first scan (Marc) has already been cleared anyways.. And Chubby's second scan (future scan) would be cleared at his death if he was killed.. So I don't see Chubby as a high scan priority myself.

Now that we're in space, I think the better scan priorities probably are going to be some of the security staff. Last game I remember alot of the security staff was targeted as they are the ones that bodyguard as well as there is nothing fishy about them being up and about at nights.

[PurdueBrad]

Purduebrad, was the breakdown of where we go again tonight?

Danny, I did a fairly cursory read through but I believe we're needed on the slave pens so that they can be rounded back up and then killed. If I'm mistaken, somebody please correct me.

[Danny]

Danny, I did a fairly cursory read through but I believe we're needed on the slave pens so that they can be rounded back up and then killed. If I'm mistaken, somebody please correct me.

Yeah I remember the priority post, but I know some engineers already put their orders in.

[PurdueBrad]

Tyrith, you're in thread, maybe you can give me a quick answer w/o having to dig. I put in orders for the slave pen, does that give us enough man-hours for the three plus extra just in case? If so, what should Danny do? Also, did I make it too many people doing it and should I switch as well?

[claphamsa]

800 messages..... 10 pages. :(

[claphamsa]

I'd agree. I think that's exactly why they took out Collins.

I think you may be correct in asserting that one of the 5 of us is a Spawn. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. You've just picked the wrong one. In order of trust of the 4, I list (most trusted at the top)

1. Tyrith
2. Danny
3. PB
4.
5.
6.
7....
....
....
8675309. clap

u r spawn not me!

[claphamsa]

No offense really meant to people, but I'm tired of the "I have eleventy hundred pages to read and I was gone 12 minutes!" or people telling me (and others) to stop posting or post less.

It ain't gonna happen. I'll post when I want to post and at the frequency I deem necessary. Sorry. Thems the breaks.

This is Werewolf, not Tiddlywinks, and Spawn at that, you knew and were warned about what you signed up for.

I don't want to get in a pissing match with anyone on the matter, but I want to put that out there.

I do genuinely like and respect each of you, but reading that is tiring.

You can keep posting it if it makes you happy, but I, just so you know, am whole-heartedly ignoring it (granted I'm gone till Tuesday anyways, so who cares, but still).

stop postign!!!!!

[hoopsguy]

This is like the third or fourth game in a row that someone has mentioned this theory.. I know you haven't been playing the others so probably didn't even know... but this theory is quickly becoming a pet peeve of mine!

The only good reoccuring theory that I know of is if Hoops is alive on day 5 he must be a wolf... ;)

This theory sucks :)

[hoopsguy]

I'll be around for the duration of the day - well, on and off - if people want to talk about night actions or anything else.

Scan options - worth talking about now or save until day action in order to avoid tipping off the Spawn? Ditto trust lists?

I'm thankful there wasn't much play this weekend with me being out of action, but long night phases kind of suck in terms of having to be cautious with conversation.

[claphamsa]

Yep. First time, and we're nervous as hell about it. It's weird, because people do it all the time, so it must not be THAT big of a deal, but it still is.
congrats! jusy bought myself! lots of work! but wait till we file for our taxes and all of a sudden see tons of writeoffs :D

[claphamsa]

I'm not going to lie -- the level of non-voting we've had the last two days, really, really disappoints me.

i disagree..... not just that i said i woudl be away... we only need 1.3 instead of 50% +1 so there is less honus on us to vote unless you are sure :)

[hoopsguy]

Clap, I try no to speak for people on in-game WW topics (like feeding them an answer to a question about their actions) but this one seems like a big-picture WW thought.

The bummer on non-voting is that people who don't vote, as either a villager or a wolf, aren't taking their opportunity to help their team win. When this is something that happens for one player out of twenty, you figure something weird happened. When it happens for something like 15-20% of the field over two days, then you get a little more concerned.

I know when I'm battling hard for my team in the game - which, you can certainly argue that I take a little too seriously - that it is frustrating to see others not at least mark their participation with a vote.

That is all. Not meant to be combative, not meant to make assumptions about the schedules of other people. Just pointing out where I've felt some disappointment in previous games from non-voting and had a similar sentiment to the one Tyrith expressed his post.

[claphamsa]

wew ! done!!!

[Passacaglia]

This theory sucks :)

Don't worry, Night 4 isn't over yet -- you might end up okay! And by 'okay' I mean getting night-killed instead of lynched.

[claphamsa]

Clap, I try no to speak for people on in-game WW topics (like feeding them an answer to a question about their actions) but this one seems like a big-picture WW thought.

The bummer on non-voting is that people who don't vote, as either a villager or a wolf, aren't taking their opportunity to help their team win. When this is something that happens for one player out of twenty, you figure something weird happened. When it happens for something like 15-20% of the field over two days, then you get a little more concerned.

I know when I'm battling hard for my team in the game - which, you can certainly argue that I take a little too seriously - that it is frustrating to see others not at least mark their participation with a vote.

That is all. Not meant to be combative, not meant to make assumptions about the schedules of other people. Just pointing out where I've felt some disappointment in previous games from non-voting and had a similar sentiment to the one Tyrith expressed his post.

i didnt say i didnt undewrstant, I just diagree :)

if my vote isnt gonna counf for anythign I see no reason to vote, but i do know what your saying....

i guess we shoudl vote jsut to show were alive..... and so vote recods can be analyzed later. but bla!

[hoopsguy]

Don't worry, Night 4 isn't over yet -- you might end up okay! And by 'okay' I mean getting night-killed instead of lynched.

Hmm, I've got a gun and the option to protect myself - I don't think I'm the easiest target on the boat. But they are welcome to try.

[Passacaglia]

i disagree..... not just that i said i woudl be away... we only need 1.3 instead of 50% +1 so there is less honus on us to vote unless you are sure :)

It's very rare for 50% +1 to be needed. Usually it's just whoever has the most. So if there's 50 players, and the vote is 3-2, the guy with 3 votes goes down. In a game like this, it's MORE important to get your say in.

[hoopsguy]

Pass, earlier in the game I thought you were answering questions for RendeR because you were in an absolute trust with him. I've spent a fair amount of time trying to figure out what was going on in this area - mainly because I didn't want to burn these guys in public, but also because they are all clear at the outset of the game.

I obviously drifted away from this idea by the time I cast a vote on RendeR during Day 2, but still gave you a little more clearance than others in the thread have done. Really not sure why, once I discarded that theory.

So, since we've got some time to kill and we are both in the thread, I'll pose a couple of questions:
1.) Why did you continue to answer questions for RendeR when he wasn't in the thread on Day 2? I feel pretty safe asking that question publicly now that we are past the point where Spawn can convert.
2.) If you are playing as a villager, then who do you think is putting in effort to paint you as a spawn and why? What does your trust list look like?

[hoopsguy]

To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen the results posted yet for Marc's scan on Path. That seems kinda important, in the overall scheme of things.

[hoopsguy]

"Doctor Vaughan, my good lad, would you be so kind as to scan path. Much appreciated," says Alan. The two men disappear briefly and then both reappear waiting to see if the crew will kill anyone today.

Marc, would you please confirm the results on this?

K, thx.

[hoopsguy]

Chance of Saldana being Spawn:
Starting Spawn (assuming 3): 13.04%
Infected spawn (4 away missions, 10% chance each): 34.39%

Now, do we assume that the spawn have been successful with a conversion attack along the way? Because the math gets much harder if we do.

Similarly, do we assume that LSG and Telle started as Spawn? That seems unlikely, given that they were both simple Spawn. I think at least one of them was converted along the way. But the math is obviously different if you assume both were converted.

Someone had asked what the possibilities were that LSG, Telle, and Saldana were all infected on away missions. I think this is irrelevant, since we don't know for sure if either of them were infected on away missions. It also doesn't change the percentage chance that Saldana was impacted by his away missions.

[Alan T]

To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen the results posted yet for Marc's scan on Path. That seems kinda important, in the overall scheme of things.


Since they both returned out of the room, I would assume Path is clean. I don't see any time he could have gotten a spawnling inside of him unless Kwhit, myself or render had put it there, which I am betting didn't happen.

If Path was not clean, they would have both died.. so even without Marc's confirmation, I think we can assume Path is good now. The only thing to look for when he comes back is if there was a spawnling, which I doubt.

[Alan T]

Chance of Saldana being Spawn:
Starting Spawn (assuming 3): 13.04%
Infected spawn (4 away missions, 10% chance each): 34.39%

Now, do we assume that the spawn have been successful with a conversion attack along the way? Because the math gets much harder if we do.

Similarly, do we assume that LSG and Telle started as Spawn? That seems unlikely, given that they were both simple Spawn. I think at least one of them was converted along the way. But the math is obviously different if you assume both were converted.

Someone had asked what the possibilities were that LSG, Telle, and Saldana were all infected on away missions. I think this is irrelevant, since we don't know for sure if either of them were infected on away missions. It also doesn't change the percentage chance that Saldana was impacted by his away missions.


I think here you are asking questions i've already given my thoughts on. Either way I won't be pushing for a lynch on Saldana until he gets scanned.

[hoopsguy]

But I'm curious, so I'll play along.

Night 1: no kill
Night 2: no kill
Night 3: mccollins kill
Night 4: TBD

I haven't seen anyone speculate that the Spawn attacked rooms on either of the first two nights. We don't have kills on those nights. So I think it makes some sense to suggest that at least one of these was a Spawn attack.

This works under the assumption that Path is a good guy - we've seen both Marc and Path clear each other, so I hope this isn't too much of a stretch.

N1: 23 players in the game, 3 spawn known to each other by virtue of spawn council, and a group of players who have been cleared after this time by confirmed goods (Alan, Me, Marc, Path). Toss in RendeR cleared by Schmidty, who would have minimal reasons to do his duplicant thing as a Spawn clearing Spawn (right?) and we are down to a smaller set of people. I count 15, and that is without being all that aggressive with adding people to the pool.

So, chances of someone not later cleared of being spawn = another 6.67% due to a conversion.

If you assume they had two conversions, we can tack another 7.14% on anyone due to a conversion (1/14, no one died the first two days, but they had a D1 conversion taking away a person).

I can't prove any of this stuff, but I feel pretty good about tacking an extra 10% on the chance of anyone being converted that was on the outside during Nights 1 and 2 when running percentages on them. That is equally applicable for anyone, not just Saldana.

[hoopsguy]

I think here you are asking questions i've already given my thoughts on. Either way I won't be pushing for a lynch on Saldana until he gets scanned.

Is this because of a sense of guilt over past games where you've gunned for him? Or because of some kind of in-game reasons? Because Saldana does have a greater likelihood than any other person in the game of being a spawn.

I'm glad people didn't follow my lead on this yesterday, because we got a Spawn, but I'm surprised there was more traction for Bullet than there was Saldana. LSG was the only other candidate who remotely made sense to put ahead of Saldana, if you are paying attention to probabilities in this game.

[hoopsguy]

Saldana, I'm probably going to continue asking these questions until you get a scan. If we have two doctors around tomorrow morning I would expect that this happens, as Alan is suggesting.

I'm sure you understand it isn't personal, even if it is probably pretty frustrating if you started and have remained a good guy.

[Alan T]

Is this because of a sense of guilt over past games where you've gunned for him? Or because of some kind of in-game reasons? Because Saldana does have a greater likelihood than any other person in the game of being a spawn.

I'm glad people didn't follow my lead on this yesterday, because we got a Spawn, but I'm surprised there was more traction for Bullet than there was Saldana. LSG was the only other candidate who remotely made sense to put ahead of Saldana, if you are paying attention to probabilities in this game.


The only reason is because Saldana has performed "above average" in the majority of missions that he has gone on.. I pushed for LSG's lynch based primarily on that, so think to be consistant the same should be done here. It is very possible that a scenerio exists where Saldana was good until his last mission and he got infected then as well, I understand that... Saldana however did take on a gross duty of going out daily pretty well in stride.. I think by all means we don't overlook him, but we should at least give him the benefit of a scan before we condemn him to death I think in this case.

[saldana]

Saldana, I'm probably going to continue asking these questions until you get a scan. If we have two doctors around tomorrow morning I would expect that this happens, as Alan is suggesting.

I'm sure you understand it isn't personal, even if it is probably pretty frustrating if you started and have remained a good guy.


I fully expected this, and honestly would have been stunned if you werent pushing it exactly the way that you are...it would be alot more frustrating if i werent getting any credit for the positive things i have done.

[hoopsguy]

Just as a note, for those of you trying to put yourself into the head of the bad guys.

They do have the ability to execute multiple actions per night. I've verified this with BK. This means that they could have had multiple actions on N3, something that I had put as a lower possibility earlier in the game.

But now that we have turned over two Spawn, and neither of them are roled, what kind of numbers do you think the Spawn had at their disposal?

Looking back on my review of Telle's actions, I think that she was involved with some kind of attack on a night where there were no kills. This tells me that there absolutely was a conversion on N2.

If the Spawn started with 3 and had Telle participating in kills on N2, then she either started as a Spawn or else was infected on her D1 mission. They tacked on another member that night, Telle was basically a trade for the Spawn - a trade for a better buried role, albeit one that probably wasn't as high on the officer list.

[Alan T]

Just as a note, for those of you trying to put yourself into the head of the bad guys.

They do have the ability to execute multiple actions per night. I've verified this with BK. This means that they could have had multiple actions on N3, something that I had put as a lower possibility earlier in the game.

But now that we have turned over two Spawn, and neither of them are roled, what kind of numbers do you think the Spawn had at their disposal?

Looking back on my review of Telle's actions, I think that she was involved with some kind of attack on a night where there were no kills. This tells me that there absolutely was a conversion on N2.

If the Spawn started with 3 and had Telle participating in kills on N2, then she either started as a Spawn or else was infected on her D1 mission. They tacked on another member that night, Telle was basically a trade for the Spawn - a trade for a better buried role, albeit one that probably wasn't as high on the officer list.


I discussed this earlier as well, but you aren't including the other part of my discussion from before which is that not all spawn know who each other are and some spawn actions are not as much against villagers as trying to identify other spawns, bring back the overlord, etc. So the other thing you have to consider is if Telle or LSG were infested, if the other spawn even knew it.

[hoopsguy]

So, I'm looking to run the numbers on where we are at in the game to this point. I would love to hear people's thoughts on my set of assumptions:

D1: 50% add Telle, 50% she is infected as spawnling
N1: conversion
D2:
N2: conversion (100% sure on this, after further reflection)
D3: lost Telle
N3: attack (kill mccollins) + 50% (think this may be conservative)conversion
D4: lost LSG

With this set of assumptions, I'm working with the idea that we are still facing four (maybe five) spawn. I think that a worst-case scenario is much more gloomy than this:
- Telle not a starting Spawn, but infected while out
- LSG was not a starting Spawn, but infected while out
- At least one more person (Saldana x4, PackerFanatic x2?) infected while out on mission
- 3 night conversions
- that would be 3 starting Spawn + 6 more - 2 killed
- worst case = 7 spawn, but c'mon

Do others think we are still just facing three? Is there an assumption that an early action was involved in creating the Overlord? Going by last game, I think that came into play when still on the planet, not after liftoff, but I could be mistaken on this point.

[Alan T]

So, I'm looking to run the numbers on where we are at in the game to this point. I would love to hear people's thoughts on my set of assumptions:

D1: 50% add Telle, 50% she is infected as spawnling
N1: conversion
D2:
N2: conversion (100% sure on this, after further reflection)
D3: lost Telle
N3: attack (kill mccollins) + 50% (think this may be conservative)conversion
D4: lost LSG

With this set of assumptions, I'm working with the idea that we are still facing four (maybe five) spawn. I think that a worst-case scenario is much more gloomy than this:
- Telle not a starting Spawn, but infected while out
- LSG was not a starting Spawn, but infected while out
- At least one more person (Saldana x4, PackerFanatic x2?) infected while out on mission
- 3 night conversions
- that would be 3 starting Spawn + 6 more - 2 killed
- worst case = 7 spawn, but c'mon

Do others think we are still just facing three? Is there an assumption that an early action was involved in creating the Overlord? Going by last game, I think that came into play when still on the planet, not after liftoff, but I could be mistaken on this point.

Since there was no night kills while on the planet until mccollins' I have to assume that there were conversions night 1 & 2, but the lack of any other kills those nights I think are probably a definite sign that they wanted to rebuild the overlord or other possible actions in addition to the conversions..

The night mccollins died, I don't think we can rule out there also was a conversion, but that might have been a sign that the overlord was rebuilt, or that they gave up with our leaving the planet looking to be soon to happen...

So I think we probably started with the 2 or 3 spawn as had been commonly suggested most of the thread.. then I think there is a good chance for 2-3 spawn conversions on the ship + at least 1 if not 2 offship conversions..

I do NOT see Telle or LSG as a likely on ship conversion and since they are simple spawns, I think it more likely they were infected off of the ship.. because of such I think it is less likely the other spawn knew they were spawn also.

So even with Telle & LSG's death, I wouldn't be suprised at another 5 or 6 spawn left, and I highly doubt that we have yet come across any of their core spawn or people they chose to convert on the ship.

[hoopsguy]

I discussed this earlier as well, but you aren't including the other part of my discussion from before which is that not all spawn know who each other are and some spawn actions are not as much against villagers as trying to identify other spawns, bring back the overlord, etc. So the other thing you have to consider is if Telle or LSG were infested, if the other spawn even knew it.

I'm near certain that Telle was acting in concert with someone - the description of her actions does not suggest a spawn acting alone on an attack. I just got the Padawan instead of the Jedi when picking who to follow.

So unless you have another interpretation of my PM, Telle was communicating N2 which means that at least two spawn (and likely three) knew exactly what they were doing with their votes on D3.

LSG - not as clear-cut, but it would be unfortunate indeed for her to have been human before we went out and for both of us to have produced such a lousy result. LSG could also have slid into the Council with the death of Telle if she was not there previously. Also, the Spawn Queen has the ability to make herself known to other Spawn. I'm not sure how this acts in terms of communication, but it does provide the ability for a spawn outside the council to follow someone's lead.

In short, I think we have lessons to learn from these votes. I'm 100% convinced of this with Telle and pretty certain of LSG as well based on how that vote went down.

[Alan T]

I'm near certain that Telle was acting in concert with someone - the description of her actions does not suggest a spawn acting alone on an attack. I just got the Padawan instead of the Jedi when picking who to follow.

So unless you have another interpretation of my PM, Telle was communicating N2 which means that at least two spawn (and likely three) knew exactly what they were doing with their votes on D3.

LSG - not as clear-cut, but it would be unfortunate indeed for her to have been human before we went out and for both of us to have produced such a lousy result. LSG could also have slid into the Council with the death of Telle if she was not there previously. Also, the Spawn Queen has the ability to make herself known to other Spawn. I'm not sure how this acts in terms of communication, but it does provide the ability for a spawn outside the council to follow someone's lead.

In short, I think we have lessons to learn from these votes. I'm 100% convinced of this with Telle and pretty certain of LSG as well based on how that vote went down.


I disagree almost entirely. I believe the starting (2 or 3) spawn all had roles. The Spawn Queen, the Unaware spawn and 1 of the other ( Mind Leech, Psionic connection, skindancer, swarm lord ).. As Telle was not anything other than a normal basic spawn, that tells me it likely means she was converted.. When looking at their convert choices, I highly doubt they would pick someone who already is going to get suspicion once we lift off for simply being off of the ship multiple times... I just don't buy that really, and because of that I feel it very unlikely the other spawn even knew for sure Telle was a spawn for that vote.

I just see ZERO evidence pointing to anything that would suggest Telle is on the spawn council... at all.

[hoopsguy]

I'm convinced I would have seen her acting entirely differently if she was attacking alone on N2. So whether she was on the Council or not, she was communicating with someone.

Again, if you are going to suggest that I'm interpreting my PM wrong then that is your best option to convince me that we have something else other than her being 2nd man in on an attack. But I'm pretty convinced I would have seen more direct action if she was attacking alone ... you know, like someone would do if they could not communicate with other spawn.

If she was able to coordinate an attack on N2 to convert someone, then the Spawn Council knew who she was on D3. Thus the vote had meaning and still has meaning.

[PurdueBrad]

I've been trying to figure out what the first two nights meant as well. I would guess, although it is just that, that the spawn were trying to rebuild the overlord. I believe that both people we've caught were conversions as opposed to starting spawn or anything else. That being said, Hoops asked how many Spawn we think we're still facing. I would guess four or five. More than that at this point would but us at a severe voting disadvantage as we need 1/3 to accomplish a lynch (and this rule may actually mean that we could be facing fewer spawn rather than more because the more spawn, the lower the chance we can pull off a lynch).

[PurdueBrad]

Forgot this in my previous post.

My guess would be, after those two lynches, that the wolves would be trying to get a conversion tonight rather than a night kill but we'll see.

[Marc Vaughan]

I'm back and after an hours reading ... just about up to date.

(oh and I'm not sure it it was posted in the thread yet (as I skimmed the pages, heck there were about 20 of em) but ... I've finished examining path - he's clean)

[Alan T]

I'm convinced I would have seen her acting entirely differently if she was attacking alone on N2. So whether she was on the Council or not, she was communicating with someone.

Again, if you are going to suggest that I'm interpreting my PM wrong then that is your best option to convince me that we have something else other than her being 2nd man in on an attack. But I'm pretty convinced I would have seen more direct action if she was attacking alone ... you know, like someone would do if they could not communicate with other spawn.

If she was able to coordinate an attack on N2 to convert someone, then the Spawn Council knew who she was on D3. Thus the vote had meaning and still has meaning.


You have to forgive me as even with your scan I still don't feel comfortable with the majority of ideas that you have pushed this game so I also am having a problem with the validity of your "PM" that night.

[Alan T]

Forgot this in my previous post.

My guess would be, after those two lynches, that the wolves would be trying to get a conversion tonight rather than a night kill but we'll see.


They can't do any more conversions now that we are in space. They can only do other actions (including night kills)

[hoopsguy]

You have to forgive me as even with your scan I still don't feel comfortable with the majority of ideas that you have pushed this game so I also am having a problem with the validity of your "PM" that night.

The validity of my PM got us a Spawn back when you were still interested in pretty much anything but finding Spawn.

You have to forgive me for being a little skeptical of your ideas that have pretty much run counter to catching Spawn all game long. I guess I should be grateful that you didn't Duke me in an effort to demonstrate your fervor to catch Spawn, but I agree with you that we have been at loggerheads almost all game long.

If you don't think I was being honest with my ideas, on a day that I was scanned as good, then I don't know that you ever will. Or are you now suggesting that I was converted since that point and I'm trying to lead you to bad conclusions?

This isn't hard. The chances of me being a bad guy are probably statistically smaller than the chances of you being a bad guy at this particular point in the game. I'm actually trying to respect your viewpoints on account of your being cleared and your position in the game. No matter how bogus I have found them the vast majority of the time.

[Alan T]

The validity of my PM got us a Spawn back when you were still interested in pretty much anything but finding Spawn.

You have to forgive me for being a little skeptical of your ideas that have pretty much run counter to catching Spawn all game long. I guess I should be grateful that you didn't Duke me in an effort to demonstrate your fervor to catch Spawn, but I agree with you that we have been at loggerheads almost all game long.

If you don't think I was being honest with my ideas, on a day that I was scanned as good, then I don't know that you ever will. Or are you now suggesting that I was converted since that point and I'm trying to lead you to bad conclusions?

This isn't hard. The chances of me being a bad guy are probably statistically smaller than the chances of you being a bad guy at this particular point in the game. I'm actually trying to respect your viewpoints on account of your being cleared and your position in the game. No matter how bogus I have found them the vast majority of the time.

My resistance to having crewpeople senselessly killed off like you wanted to do with Render helped us get to space. I still guess you haven't done a great job explaining your PM to where I see the same viewpoint you see...

Best I have seen your explanation of Telle's actions that night was that she was wandering around aimless looking for something, or studying places.. or something along those lines.. I for the life of me do not understand how that = joining an attack. You didn't see her join an attack or you would have said so at the time.

Maybe it is just an inherent distrust for you, but the percentages are the only thing that have kept me from going after you.. as percentage wise there are only a few people on the ship less likely to be a spawn than you.. my gut still tells me you are the unaware spawn however.

Perhaps we could come to some like minded thinking if you could try once again to explain what about your PM result from Telle made you think she was joining in on an attack, because what you have shared so far was actually the opposite.

[hoopsguy]

Telle was moving between rooms, but she seemed to be focused elsewhere, looking for something, concentrating at times. I don't know what stock to put in her wandering, but the seeking and concentrating were concerns that were not alleviated by her response.

If she was alone on an attack, I would expect to see her targeting an opponent, launching an attack, whatever. Not seeking and concentrating. If you accept that she was part of a coordinated action N2 then the vote on D3 has meaning.

If we are going to swap "Unaware Spawn" suggestions, I would be happy putting my track record this game against yours. I was cleared later in the game, I drove for outing a Spawn when you wanted to ignore them as they continued converting, and you are trying to tell us not to attach meaning to the votes up to this point. In fact, the only reason I don't think you Duked me on Day 2 is that it would have opened you up for mutiny. See how two can play at the (semi) baseless accusation game?

[PurdueBrad]

Hoops, Alan, we are going to need you guys on the same page as this game goes. I love to distrust Hoops and Alan, simply because of how powerful your role is, I wanted to distrust you but you've both put together good track records. Alan, I've agreed with you on offing the slaves ASAP and on no lynches. Hoops, you've led us down the right path lynch-wise and hold an important position as well. You've both been cleared at various times, if you guys completely ignore each other, where would you look next?

[Alan T]

Telle was moving between rooms, but she seemed to be focused elsewhere, looking for something, concentrating at times. I don't know what stock to put in her wandering, but the seeking and concentrating were concerns that were not alleviated by her response.

If she was alone on an attack, I would expect to see her targeting an opponent, launching an attack, whatever. Not seeking and concentrating. If you accept that she was part of a coordinated action N2 then the vote on D3 has meaning.

If we are going to swap "Unaware Spawn" suggestions, I would be happy putting my track record this game against yours. I was cleared later in the game, I drove for outing a Spawn when you wanted to ignore them as they continued converting, and you are trying to tell us not to attach meaning to the votes up to this point. In fact, the only reason I don't think you Duked me on Day 2 is that it would have opened you up for mutiny. See how two can play at the (semi) baseless accusation game?


I still don't see your explanation for Telle's wandering around as joining an attack.. Based on previous spawn game experience.. to join in on an attack, there is no wandering around looking for something involved...

From where I sit, you seem instead of being happy that we got two spawn, seem to be trying to legitimize your "goodness" by promoting ideas that would then clear you even if those examples you give don't seem to support the facts you give. I could use the same example of me "pushing" for a lynch of LSG where you were more than happy pushing people elsewhere as a similar example.. however I fully believe LSG was pretty much the same unknown spawn entity to the spawn council that Telle was.

Instead like I previously mentioned, I feel pretty good what I accomplished as captain this game thus far, helping keep us focused on the main mission of getting off of the planet. Now we are in space, I'm fully eager to help try to catch spawn.. but almost every arguement you have made (whether trying to encourage the replicant to not clear Path earlier on, to trying to convince people to vote Render -instead- of Telle previously even though Telle had better odds) just doesn't sit well with me.

At this point, once the slaves are dead, I don't know that I am as important as many other roles such as the doctors, so I very well may risk a mutiny to see if my gut is right about you.. but the main reason I haven't duked you so far was because I was trying to give you a benefit of the doubt based on percentages.. The further you appear to be pushing some other agenda of self-promotion goes however, the less tolerant I get.

[Alan T]

Hoops, Alan, we are going to need you guys on the same page as this game goes. I love to distrust Hoops and Alan, simply because of how powerful your role is, I wanted to distrust you but you've both put together good track records. Alan, I've agreed with you on offing the slaves ASAP and on no lynches. Hoops, you've led us down the right path lynch-wise and hold an important position as well. You've both been cleared at various times, if you guys completely ignore each other, where would you look next?


I mentioned yesterday that if I was a spawn, I would have gone after security personal to try to convert while on the planet. They have an excuse to be out an about at night, they have weapons, and for the most part several of them have been guarding locations (and their protecting things is far less successful against spawn attacks)..

Now we are in space, if the spawn were able to convert our protection, it would leave them in better position to kill people without fear.

I would be eager to see Path and/or Marc scan security personal today (in hopes that Path and Marc were protected last night).. of course if security personal have been converted, then it very well may mean no one was able to protect either and they will be killed before being able to scan any further.

[PurdueBrad]

I mentioned yesterday that if I was a spawn, I would have gone after security personal to try to convert while on the planet. They have an excuse to be out an about at night, they have weapons, and for the most part several of them have been guarding locations (and their protecting things is far less successful against spawn attacks)..

Now we are in space, if the spawn were able to convert our protection, it would leave them in better position to kill people without fear.

I would be eager to see Path and/or Marc scan security personal today (in hopes that Path and Marc were protected last night).. of course if security personal have been converted, then it very well may mean no one was able to protect either and they will be killed before being able to scan any further.

I agree with you about the security personnel but if I were the spawn, I wouldn't target Hoops. Seriously, how hard is it really to swing 1/3 of the people to distrust Hoops? I would've gone after the other security people, relied on them or others to push Hoops and go from there. This will look awful if I'm wrong and Hoops has been converted at this point but I don't think he has nor do I think you have.

[RendeR]

You have to forgive me as even with your scan I still don't feel comfortable with the majority of ideas that you have pushed this game so I also am having a problem with the validity of your "PM" that night.


I agree with you that he seems to be placing a lot of "this must be tihs way" on what sounded rather vague when he described it.

Hoops, is it not possible that Telle may actually have not been lying about what hapened that night? She may have actually been exhausted and trying to stay awake while wandering the ship?

That was her reasoning and based on what you said your PM told you it sounded to me as if she were just half asleep while walking around looking for a place to rest.

Knowing that she was indeed a spawn makes me want to assume she had some intent, but other than your PM and an utter lack of activity from the spawn that we know of, I think you're theories may well BE valid, but you could just be reading waaaay too much into things.

Not saying you're wrong, but taking the view that the only thing you really have fact wise is a PM that said she wandered and paused and wandered more. And from that you're extrapolating a whole lot.

Just be sure to try thinking through all the other possibilities just as thoroughly as you've thought of the first one.

[Alan T]

I agree with you about the security personnel but if I were the spawn, I wouldn't target Hoops. Seriously, how hard is it really to swing 1/3 of the people to distrust Hoops? I would've gone after the other security people, relied on them or others to push Hoops and go from there. This will look awful if I'm wrong and Hoops has been converted at this point but I don't think he has nor do I think you have.

I don't think Hoops has been converted. I think he either is the unaware spawn from the start, or he is a villager with a completely 180 degree different view of pretty much everything in this game than me.

[hoopsguy]

Alan, my suggestion would be that if you are a villager that you expand your world view a little bit to accept the input of other players who may have different views than your own rather than trying to force your version of events down everyone's throats. You are the Captain, so you may issue orders in the game. That doesn't mean that you are properly interpreting events. Even the best players aren't right 50% of the time.

We should both take a quick step away from the thread and try to consider the merits of the other person's approach, rather than leaping to assumptions that someone who has been cleared is the likely candidate for the Unaware Spawn. I'm going to follow that advice. If we are both villagers then maybe our bickering will actually help us stay alive tonight by making us less attractive attack options for the Spawn.


OK, moving on to other ground - I'm just about 100% sure on the Telle actions that she was in acting in concert with another spawn on a conversion. Ergo, the Day 3 vote was coordinated. There is value in the voting records. I'm absolutely going to be acting with this in mind and I would encourage other players to do so as well. This isn't a grab for credit - this is a call to action for people who want to catch Spawn. That should be about 15-16 of us remaining on the ship.

[Alan T]

Alan, my suggestion would be that if you are a villager that you expand your world view a little bit to accept the input of other players who may have different views than your own rather than trying to force your version of events down everyone's throats. You are the Captain, so you may issue orders in the game. That doesn't mean that you are properly interpreting events. Even the best players aren't right 50% of the time.

We should both take a quick step away from the thread and try to consider the merits of the other person's approach, rather than leaping to assumptions that someone who has been cleared is the likely candidate for the Unaware Spawn. I'm going to follow that advice. If we are both villagers then maybe our bickering will actually help us stay alive tonight by making us less attractive attack options for the Spawn.


OK, moving on to other ground - I'm just about 100% sure on the Telle actions that she was in acting in concert with another spawn on a conversion. Ergo, the Day 3 vote was coordinated. There is value in the voting records. I'm absolutely going to be acting with this in mind and I would encourage other players to do so as well. This isn't a grab for credit - this is a call to action for people who want to catch Spawn. That should be about 15-16 of us remaining on the ship.


That is actually a pretty crappy thing to say to me as you know very well I've made it a point several times this game to not force people to act a certain way, to encourage people to vote how they fell, and to not rely on my gut to duke people (including you). If you disagree, I'll go back and show you EVERY occurance of where that has been the case.

The reason I am not considering your approach is you refuse to do what I asked, and explain better how you are getting from point A to B. In regards to Telle, what you have given us does not get us to point B.. so either you are holding some information back that you haven't shared, or you are forcing the issue. And if you are forcing the issue, it is legitimate to ask why you are forcing the issue.

[hoopsguy]

RendeR, I don't think we somehow lucked into a Spawn who didn't get a bed. There would be no need for seeking or concentrating if that was what happened that night.

If she was attacking alone, I would expect an entirely different PM. But if you want to go down this path, then you have to make an entirely different set of assumptions about what the Spawn activity would be night-by-night.

I've thought about this in depth, both before questioning Telle and over the couple of days away from the board. I've posed questions to the moderator about this, some of which he has actually answered (as opposed to deflecting, minimizing, or failing to provide clarity, which I've gotten with other PMs - this is not a criticism of the mod). I'm quite confident of my stance on this, and I'm alarmed by strong suggestions that we assume uncoordinated activity by the Spawn when I'm near certain it is not the case.

[Alan T]

RendeR, I don't think we somehow lucked into a Spawn who didn't get a bed. There would be no need for seeking or concentrating if that was what happened that night.

If she was attacking alone, I would expect an entirely different PM. But if you want to go down this path, then you have to make an entirely different set of assumptions about what the Spawn activity would be night-by-night.

I've thought about this in depth, both before questioning Telle and over the couple of days away from the board. I've posed questions to the moderator about this, some of which he has actually answered (as opposed to deflecting, minimizing, or failing to provide clarity, which I've gotten with other PMs - this is not a criticism of the mod). I'm quite confident of my stance on this, and I'm alarmed by strong suggestions that we assume uncoordinated activity by the Spawn when I'm near certain it is not the case.

Who has suggested uncoordinated activity by the spawn? I know I have said that I think they have been coordinated.. just Telle wasn't part of those plans as it seems fairly likely that she was infected off of the ship and thus probably not spawn council nor privy to their discussion.

[hoopsguy]

That is actually a pretty crappy thing to say to me as you know very well I've made it a point several times this game to not force people to act a certain way, to encourage people to vote how they fell, and to not rely on my gut to duke people (including you). If you disagree, I'll go back and show you EVERY occurance of where that has been the case.

The reason I am not considering your approach is you refuse to do what I asked, and explain better how you are getting from point A to B. In regards to Telle, what you have given us does not get us to point B.. so either you are holding some information back that you haven't shared, or you are forcing the issue. And if you are forcing the issue, it is legitimate to ask why you are forcing the issue.

If you are a Spawn then please Duke me. Because otherwise it is going to be tough to get you out of your seat. I'll take that trade in a second.

If you aren't a Spawn, then I'm very glad you haven't duked me because it would be bad for the ship all around.

I was trying to offer an olive branch with that post. If you didn't take it in that manner, then so be it. I'm going to try and follow my own advice, even if you are not inclined to do so.

[Alan T]

Well hoops, the good news for you is that I can't duke you tommorrow anyways as to kill the spawn off, it uses up all of my daytime AP.. so you have two nights to kill me before I get the chance :)

[hoopsguy]

Is it an absolute that Telle has to be part of the Council in order to participate in a coordinated attack? Clearly, that is the easiest explanation, but I don't know all the mechanics of how they are able to act. The Queen is able to make herself known to other spawn. Also, there is a Psionic Connection ability in the game that allows all spawn to know each other. So I'm not sure where you go from "know each other" to acting together on a night action - the Spawn could answer that better, but they aren't talking.

If the only way for them to communicate with each other is that Telle was on the Spawn Council then I guess that is what I'm saying. I'm not making a similar claim with LSG because I have no way of knowing one way or another.

[hoopsguy]

Well hoops, the good news for you is that I can't duke you tommorrow anyways as to kill the spawn off, it uses up all of my daytime AP.. so you have two nights to kill me before I get the chance :)

That would be hard to do, since we can't vote you off the island until you duke someone :)

I think you will be exceedingly careful about doing this if you are a Spawn - you know, like Spawn 2.

Again, this conversation is kind of worthless for me as it doesn't help me in making my night actions. You aren't going to change my viewpoint on Night 2/Day 3 - I don't see anything you could say that would, short of "I'm Spawn, I know how it went down, and you are wrong". So I would rather talk about stuff that might actually help me with making decisions for Night 4 and Day 5. Voting you just is not on that list.

[hoopsguy]

The reason I am not considering your approach is you refuse to do what I asked, and explain better how you are getting from point A to B. In regards to Telle, what you have given us does not get us to point B.. so either you are holding some information back that you haven't shared, or you are forcing the issue. And if you are forcing the issue, it is legitimate to ask why you are forcing the issue.

RendeR, I don't think we somehow lucked into a Spawn who didn't get a bed. There would be no need for seeking or concentrating if that was what happened that night.

If she was attacking alone, I would expect an entirely different PM. But if you want to go down this path, then you have to make an entirely different set of assumptions about what the Spawn activity would be night-by-night.

I've thought about this in depth, both before questioning Telle and over the couple of days away from the board. I've posed questions to the moderator about this, some of which he has actually answered (as opposed to deflecting, minimizing, or failing to provide clarity, which I've gotten with other PMs - this is not a criticism of the mod). I'm quite confident of my stance on this, and I'm alarmed by strong suggestions that we assume uncoordinated activity by the Spawn when I'm near certain it is not the case.

Consider this the longer response on the matter.

[Alan T]

Is it an absolute that Telle has to be part of the Council in order to participate in a coordinated attack? Clearly, that is the easiest explanation, but I don't know all the mechanics of how they are able to act. The Queen is able to make herself known to other spawn. Also, there is a Psionic Connection ability in the game that allows all spawn to know each other. So I'm not sure where you go from "know each other" to acting together on a night action - the Spawn could answer that better, but they aren't talking.

If the only way for them to communicate with each other is that Telle was on the Spawn Council then I guess that is what I'm saying. I'm not making a similar claim with LSG because I have no way of knowing one way or another.


Since the spawn queen is the only one who can do the spawn attacks (conversions) with help from others joining in, I highly doubt that they skipped chances to convert in order for the spawn queen to make herself known to others through whatever mechanism is listed in the rules. That doesn't seem to make much sense.

I also would have to assume they would wait on the psionic connection until either they left the planet, or at least several days in to get the most bang for the buck.. (if that role is even in this game)

The rules state the hive mind (council?) knows all of the spawnlings, but they don't know the other way around. So for Telle to join in on an attack, she would have to have had communication to do so I would assume.. and the ways for that to occur to someone who was converted seem unlikely at that point in the game.. So that takes us back to my original point that the only way Telle could have really joined in on an attack would have been if she was an original spawn, and then I would expect her to have had one of the roles instead of generic spawn like LSG did.

[Alan T]

Consider this the longer response on the matter.


That response doesn't really answer my question at all. Perhaps its because I was a spawn in a previous game and knew at least then how attacking together worked that your description of Telle just doesn't match that at all.

[RendeR]

Hoops, the thing you're saying Alan is doing is exactly what YOUR doing as well.

both of you should stepo back and reconsider your psitions and think of things from the other guys PoV.

I understand that YOU fel certain of your information hoops, but frankly, from your own description of tihngs I simply do not get the same result when I picture the situation.

For my own thinking: We know that the oldest 3 spawn form the council and ONLY those spawn have pm rights and those are very limited unles they create the overlord.

Now, IF they immediately tried to create the overloard:

This would explain at least one night's total inaction by the spawn.
It is what I would do if I were a spawn, communication is extremely important in this game, if we hadn't figured that out yet ;)

Attacks: Successful attacks are NOT guarenteed, on either night when no one died they could well have tried to kill someone and simply failed.

Now, if I tak those possibilities into account I can actually see a scenario where LSG and TELLE (being long time players but not very often wolfs/spawn) having limited communication ability simply played things very tight to th vest hoping to stay alive as long as posible while making small steps towards their goals.

While I agree that they were probably coodinating things in SOME way, I really don't see anything in Hoops PM info that shows telle was working with anyone at the time he saw her. in that situation I truly believe we got lucky while Telle was either:

1: looking for a place to sleep
2: Looking for a place or person in particular and not finding them
3: Simply wandering the halls because her night action points were already spent in some other persuit.



Now, what does that leave me with? I'm not sure yet, I definitely don't see the uber-involved tightly orchestrated plotlin that hoops sees. I just don't see the coordination. The rules for attacks actually make the coordination idea seem wrong anyway, because if they DID work together their chance os success rosses the 105% mark before any modifiers go on and that would seem to me to mean they'd have made more kills.

Conversions the first two nights? entirely possible, but I'm thinking 1, not 2. because I really believe at least one of those nights they tried to bring back the overlord.

So...I dunno. I'm betting 3 more spawn total. Maybe a 4th that is still a spawnling? and that for me is a worst case. In the back of my head I'm thinking there are only 2 left at all, but thats just my brain being optimistic.

Now, please you two, quick bickering and both of you stop assuming your right and everyone else is wrong ;) you both come off very "Mr. know-it-all" sometimes =)

Instead of getting uppity with one another, both of you flesh out the OTHER guys theory in a post for us, that could bring a lot to light that we're all missing.

[PurdueBrad]

Quite eloquent RendeR and a much better way of saying what I was thinking.

[RendeR]

One point on your answer hoops:

Why would someone looking for a place to sleep not seek and concentrate?


"Damn, no beds...well self, lets go wander around, maybe there is a spare chair somewhere I can nap in..." *pauses to think for a moment (face could make a look of concentration while doing so)* " Hrm, nope, no chairs there...*wanders more* "what about...no..no that wouldn't work either...god I'm tired"

yes, its comical, but its entirely possible that this is what you saw. I'm not saying it IS or isn't what happened because I honestly don;t know, but you're steadfast "this is what was going on" is a bit assinine and I really wish you'd cool it a little. you might be convinced, but obviously others are not. Stop getting uptight over it and work through other optins as well as that one.

[RendeR]

Quite eloquent RendeR and a much better way of saying what I was thinking.


Why thank you PB, its nice to do sometihng non-belligerant for a change! :D

[RendeR]

One other thing to try and remember guys:

Its only night 4. Now *I* assume they tried at least once to get the overlord so that only leaves them 2 other nights to do anything, they killed McC, so that means if I'm right they only have 1 night action where nothing occured that we don;t have any info about, failed attack? spawnling?

I think we can keep our estimates of how many spawn are left a litle lower based on that.

We got off that planet really fast (IMO) though I didnt play the previous spawn games so I dunno if day 4 is fast for that or not.

[hoopsguy]

RendeR, do you consider post #3241 a more likely possibility of a Spawn being caught?

Note that when I followed Olie, I was told that she was spying on someone. I didn't get to see who the person was that was the target of her action, but I did get to see her involved.

If you want to try and persuade me that Telle attacked someone, and implanted a spawnling on them, then there is at least a chance I'll listen to that argument. Post #3241 isn't going to get me to move off my viewpoint.

Again, I'm not directly quoting either night PMs or exchanges with the moderator. But I have the luxury of both to work with in coming to my assessment. So maybe my issue is that I'm not doing a sufficiently good job of "rewording" those exchanges.

[hoopsguy]

If you want to try and persuade me that Telle attacked someone, and implanted a spawnling on them, then there is at least a chance I'll listen to that argument. Post #3241 isn't going to get me to move off my viewpoint.

Should read "If you want to try and persuade me that Telle attacked someone, and implanted a spawnling on them by herself"

Again, I think that argument at least makes sense. I'm pretty darn sure it is wrong, but that at least seems like a sane argument to make.

[RendeR]

The point of that post was to get you to stop being closed minded about the situtation. I do not, from anything you've told us thus far believe what you believe is the case.

There is just too much assumption in your theory at this point. So I guess what I'm saying is that unless you can convince ME otherwise then my post and your theory are equally possible.

If you can paraphrase the PM better then please do so, but you gota get out of our faces with the "Based on this I know I'm right" stuff, you know that doesn't work well at all.

Try to be a bit more flexible.

[hoopsguy]

RendeR, short of me following someone who doesn't get a bed that is a proven villager, I'm not going to have a PM to compare against that is an apples-for-apples example.

However, when I followed Oliegirl I was informed that she was following another person - she has a spy action so this made perfect sense. She also seemed disturbed, which was appropriate given that she was attacked by a slave. I didn't post any of this until she had posted her results, but everything fit together well when I saw her accounting.

When I followed Telle, I was informed that most of the night involved moving about the ship, but part of it involved stopping, concentrating, and an activity that could either be perceived as looking for someone or looking out for someone (would depend on your interpretation). I reviewed the list of available private roles and did not find anything (for a villager) that seemed aligned with this description.

Now, if someone is involved with a multi-person attack they would need to meet with that person. They potentially might want to assume "look out" duty if there was a successful conversion - they would not be able to do this if they were converting alone. And I don't see a tired person looking for a bed concentrating at points along the way - what, are they squinting while looking at the mirage of a bed?

Look at how hard it was to get traction on the idea of voting for a spawn that day caught in a lie - it likely would not have happened if Path had not scanned me as good. Even after that point the votes were slow to come in. The main point of contention here is whether or not to assign value to Day 3.

If you 90% believe that I'm a villager but are only 50% convinced that I'm interpreting events correctly, doesn't it make more sense to look for value in the votes? Not as the only measure for your next vote, but as one factor? Use it in conjunction with seer scans, night action results, etc? I really do not understand the resistance to that idea.

[claphamsa]

Well hoops, the good news for you is that I can't duke you tommorrow anyways as to kill the spawn off, it uses up all of my daytime AP.. so you have two nights to kill me before I get the chance :)
ok, i just reread the bikcering 3 time.... how do you get from hoops did everythign to nail telle... to hes a sapwn?

[RendeR]

What do the votes have to do with you believing that Telle was part of a coordinated attack? You have ZERO evidence of that. none. She was alone. She met no one she attacked no one.

She was NOT part of a coordinated attack Hoops, it seems blatantly freaking obvious. I'm not the one being resistant to anything here, i'm tryin to show you that you're clinging to an idea that has NO realistic value here and its distracting everyone from focusing on what we DO know.

Wasn't it you that chided me for dreaming up perfect scenarios? You're completely inventing this "coordinated attack" please stop speculating and claiming it as fact.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of what DID happen, but I will continue to call you when you try and tell us what DID happen when nothing you have shown us agrees with that.

Now, stop being a defensive git and try thinking outside your perfect little world for a while. Thats all I'm really asking.

[Alan T]

ok, i just reread the bikcering 3 time.... how do you get from hoops did everythign to nail telle... to hes a sapwn?


I guess I'm completely wrong then. :)


(ie: you can go back and read my points if you want to, but if you're going to be lazy, I will too!)

[claphamsa]

Why thank you PB, its nice to do sometihng non-belligerant for a change! :D

but it would have been oh so fun to get the old render invotlved there ;)

[claphamsa]

I guess I'm completely wrong then. :)


(ie: you can go back and read my points if you want to, but if you're going to be lazy, I will too!)
see thats the thing, i actually looked... and i just dont see it. makes no sense :( oh well.

[claphamsa]

I don't think Hoops has been converted. I think he either is the unaware spawn from the start, or he is a villager with a completely 180 degree different view of pretty much everything in this game than me.

you went from logical here, to telling him he shuld night kill you....

[Alan T]

see thats the thing, i actually looked... and i just dont see it. makes no sense :( oh well.

I've wasted enough time trying to explain to Hoops why I think he is bad, that I'm not going to re-post the same things I've posted at least 3 or 4 days this game over for just you. I'll just wait till I can duke him, and see if I am right or wrong that way.

[RendeR]

Does anyone have a curent vote count at all? I'm really not sure what direction to send my vote in today.

IF hoops hadn't been cleared I might vote him out of spite *wink*

But seriously. We had packer on the block at one point, Pass is always on the block these days it seems. Who else were we looking at?

[claphamsa]

I've wasted enough time trying to explain to Hoops why I think he is bad, that I'm not going to re-post the same things I've posted at least 3 or 4 days this game over for just you. I'll just wait till I can duke him, and see if I am right or wrong that way.

fair enough.... but im more woried abotu you being spawn than him :)

[Marc Vaughan]

I have a theory that we may be defeating the spawn by simple basis of post count - they're too busy reading the pages of text here to be able to plan or co-ordinate any attacks ;)

[Alan T]

Does anyone have a curent vote count at all? I'm really not sure what direction to send my vote in today.

IF hoops hadn't been cleared I might vote him out of spite *wink*

But seriously. We had packer on the block at one point, Pass is always on the block these days it seems. Who else were we looking at?


It is night phase, no votes yet until tommorrow morning 9am

[Alan T]

fair enough.... but im more woried abotu you being spawn than him :)

Fair enough, which person converted me? Path, or kwhit or Render?

[RendeR]

I've wasted enough time trying to explain to Hoops why I think he is bad, that I'm not going to re-post the same things I've posted at least 3 or 4 days this game over for just you. I'll just wait till I can duke him, and see if I am right or wrong that way.


Wait, you actually THINK hoops is bad? Please explain cause this lil black duck missed that altogether. He was scanned wasn't he? where would he have been turned? I also don't think his arguments point at him being bad either honestly, he'd be arguing entirely different points if he were.

[RendeR]

It is night phase, no votes yet until tommorrow morning 9am


DOH, true , damn two phase days =)

I'm going to stay up tonoight and follow someone around and see what I can see. Any locations that we need a body in just to keep an eye on things?

[claphamsa]

i was gonna respond to alan,..... but render said it better as usual. it is very likely that you both are good, yet misguided non spawn... who need to deal with each other and get back to finding spawn....

[Alan T]

Wait, you actually THINK hoops is bad? Please explain cause this lil black duck missed that altogether. He was scanned wasn't he? where would he have been turned? I also don't think his arguments point at him being bad either honestly, he'd be arguing entirely different points if he were.

I've had a nagging feeling since day 2 based on how he acted that he was the unaware spawn. Since then he's been trying to undermine alot of the activities we've been doing to get off of the planet.. Yes he did help lead to Telle's lynching, which is the big point of contention here, that he is arguing very strongly that Telle MUST have been spawn at the time and part of the attack thus his helping get her lynched = removal of anyone's thoughts that he was bad.. The only reason I'm not pushing for a lynch vote on Hoops is that he was scanned by Path and that means he could only be 1 possible spawn role in the game (if that one). That doesn't mean I still don't have this nagging feeling based on his lack of cooperation and sometimes destructive play (ie: trying to get Danny scanned instead of Path, arguing that he didn't want another away mission on the day we were trying to get enough crystal to get off of the planet, etc) that he is the unaware spawn..

And I am the player who very well may take a gamble on it at some point soon.

[RendeR]

Damn two kudos in one page of posts from me? WTF? is this actually that alternate universe from Star Trek or something? Did I slip into an episode of Sliders?

[Alan T]

i was gonna respond to alan,..... but render said it better as usual. it is very likely that you both are good, yet misguided non spawn... who need to deal with each other and get back to finding spawn....

But you didn't response.. which one of the three do you think converted me? Since you felt I am more likely to be a spawn.

[claphamsa]

But you didn't response.. which one of the three do you think converted me? Since you felt I am more likely to be a spawn.

I cant double quote, but you missed the part where i said you are both likely to be misguieded villegars?

[claphamsa]

i was gonna respond to alan,..... but render said it better as usual. it is very likely that you both are good, yet misguided non spawn... who need to deal with each other and get back to finding spawn....

there

[hoopsguy]

OK, if I can't convince people to look at votes (Day 3 especially, but any other day as well) as a tool in making decisions then so be it. I think that is pretty much Werewolf 101, but go ahead and ignore them. Sorry for being a git.

If someone wants to guard Alan tonight, be my guest. There is about zero chance that I will.

So, since my notions on voting records seem to be meeting with universal disdain, what would people like to talk about this evening? Should we return to the Werewolf: Tiddlywinks conversation?

[Alan T]

I cant double quote, but you missed the part where i said you are both likely to be misguieded villegars?

You said this first:

fair enough.... but im more woried abotu you being spawn than him :)


I assume that means you no longer feel that way?

[Alan T]

OK, if I can't convince people to look at votes (Day 3 especially, but any other day as well) as a tool in making decisions then so be it. I think that is pretty much Werewolf 101, but go ahead and ignore them. Sorry for being a git.

If someone wants to guard Alan tonight, be my guest. There is about zero chance that I will.

So, since my notions on voting records seem to be meeting with universal disdain, what would people like to talk about this evening? Should we return to the Werewolf: Tiddlywinks conversation?


I tend to usually not discuss that much during night phases anyways. I only wanted to keep you from doing what I felt equaled trying to misguide the village. I'm not pushing my viewpoint at all on anyone, I'm not asking anyone to vote for Hoops.. If I feel strong enough about it I'll take care of him myself. I'm just simply denying that I believe it even 50/50 chance that Telle was spawn council when she was "outed"

[claphamsa]

You said this first:




I assume that means you no longer feel that way?

wow, i guve up :(

[hoopsguy]

I've had a nagging feeling since day 2 based on how he acted that he was the unaware spawn. Since then he's been trying to undermine alot of the activities we've been doing to get off of the planet.. Yes he did help lead to Telle's lynching, which is the big point of contention here, that he is arguing very strongly that Telle MUST have been spawn at the time and part of the attack thus his helping get her lynched = removal of anyone's thoughts that he was bad.. The only reason I'm not pushing for a lynch vote on Hoops is that he was scanned by Path and that means he could only be 1 possible spawn role in the game (if that one). That doesn't mean I still don't have this nagging feeling based on his lack of cooperation and sometimes destructive play (ie: trying to get Danny scanned instead of Path, arguing that he didn't want another away mission on the day we were trying to get enough crystal to get off of the planet, etc) that he is the unaware spawn..

And I am the player who very well may take a gamble on it at some point soon.


Again, if you are actually a villager, then don't duke me and open up the chance of losing your seat. Just order Schmidty to deny me water later in the game to accomplish the same thing. Both will result in a dead villager, but you have the option of keeping your chair while showing everyone how wrong you gut is for the second game in a row.

[Alan T]

Again, if you are actually a villager, then don't duke me and open up the chance of losing your seat. Just order Schmidty to deny me water later in the game to accomplish the same thing. Both will result in a dead villager, but you have the option of keeping your chair while showing everyone how wrong you gut is for the second game in a row.

But the other way is so much more fun :)

[RendeR]

I've had a nagging feeling since day 2 based on how he acted that he was the unaware spawn. Since then he's been trying to undermine alot of the activities we've been doing to get off of the planet.. Yes he did help lead to Telle's lynching, which is the big point of contention here, that he is arguing very strongly that Telle MUST have been spawn at the time and part of the attack thus his helping get her lynched = removal of anyone's thoughts that he was bad.. The only reason I'm not pushing for a lynch vote on Hoops is that he was scanned by Path and that means he could only be 1 possible spawn role in the game (if that one). That doesn't mean I still don't have this nagging feeling based on his lack of cooperation and sometimes destructive play (ie: trying to get Danny scanned instead of Path, arguing that he didn't want another away mission on the day we were trying to get enough crystal to get off of the planet, etc) that he is the unaware spawn..

And I am the player who very well may take a gamble on it at some point soon.

perhaps, can we verify the timing of his "negative" activities? since they could or SHOULD only have been happening in the night phase when he would then know himself a spawn. right? how would that work?

[Alan T]

perhaps, can we verify the timing of his "negative" activities? since they could or SHOULD only have been happening in the night phase when he would then know himself a spawn. right? how would that work?


I think you're reading more into that role description than really is there. The Unaware spawn obviously knows they are a spawn all of the time, but during the day phases they don't have PM rights with the other spawns and any scans of them would turn up as good. He'd still know he is on the spawn team and wins with the spawn then there..

Don't get me wrong then, my goal isn't really to push an unaware spawn vote for Hoops today.. that would be mathematically irresponsible (like Hoops's pushing for Render's lynch over Telle's).. I simply am arguing against his desire to push the agenda that Telle MUST have been spawn council and working with other spawn that night without providing us any reasoning to believe that ourselves.

[hoopsguy]

I tend to usually not discuss that much during night phases anyways. I only wanted to keep you from doing what I felt equaled trying to misguide the village. I'm not pushing my viewpoint at all on anyone, I'm not asking anyone to vote for Hoops.. If I feel strong enough about it I'll take care of him myself. I'm just simply denying that I believe it even 50/50 chance that Telle was spawn council when she was "outed"

Interesting, I feel like I'm doing the same.

I think the crux of my arguments with you over the course of this game are the following:
1.) Getting off the planet and catching spawn are not mutually exclusive
2.) Getting off the planet while allowing the Spawn to convert us unimpaired is not optimal strategy
3.) The stuff that normally works in Werewolf - catching wolves, looking at voting records - should also work in this game. There are more layers in this game, but it is still good old werewolf at the heart of it
4.) I've probably got a better feel for my own information than you do for my information. Shame on me if I can't convince other people to listen to me, but shame on you for feeling the need to continue misrepresenting my viewpoints if we are on the same side

[RendeR]

OK, if I can't convince people to look at votes (Day 3 especially, but any other day as well) as a tool in making decisions then so be it. I think that is pretty much Werewolf 101, but go ahead and ignore them. Sorry for being a git.

If someone wants to guard Alan tonight, be my guest. There is about zero chance that I will.

So, since my notions on voting records seem to be meeting with universal disdain, what would people like to talk about this evening? Should we return to the Werewolf: Tiddlywinks conversation?


Damn you hoops, stop being a whiny bitch.

NOW, explain your theory about the votes on day 3, I don;t have an issue with looking at votesa to find another spawn, never said I did.

I don't see how you can make a connection between the voting on day 3 and use that as evidence or your "coordinated attack theory" that alls.

Please continue with the voting informatoin.

[RendeR]

I think you're reading more into that role description than really is there. The Unaware spawn obviously knows they are a spawn all of the time, but during the day phases they don't have PM rights with the other spawns and any scans of them would turn up as good. He'd still know he is on the spawn team and wins with the spawn then there..

Don't get me wrong then, my goal isn't really to push an unaware spawn vote for Hoops today.. that would be mathematically irresponsible (like Hoops's pushing for Render's lynch over Telle's).. I simply am arguing against his desire to push the agenda that Telle MUST have been spawn council and working with other spawn that night without providing us any reasoning to believe that ourselves.


Why must those two tihngs go together? I agree wholeheartedly that there was no coordinated attack as Hoops suggest, but there is equally no evidence that she was NOT part of the spawn council. To write her out of that possibility would be irresponsible.

You and Hoops have finally surpasedd Lathum in my ledger of hard headed gotta have the last word my I'm right you're wrong people =)

and i thought *I* was stubborn.... *winks*

[RendeR]

I'll apologize now for the whiney bitch comment. The self pitying "lets talk tiddlywinks" comment pissed me off for a second.

[Alan T]

Why must those two tihngs go together? I agree wholeheartedly that there was no coordinated attack as Hoops suggest, but there is equally no evidence that she was NOT part of the spawn council. To write her out of that possibility would be irresponsible.

You and Hoops have finally surpasedd Lathum in my ledger of hard headed gotta have the last word my I'm right you're wrong people =)

and i thought *I* was stubborn.... *winks*

My thought all along was the spawn council (as in the rules states the oldest three spawn), would be the ones with the important roles (Spawn queen, unaware spawn, etc)... Barkeep stated any time a spawn is killed with a spawn role, it would be listed, and Telle was a basic normal spawn.

That seems to me like Telle was one of the converted and not original spawn council. The only way that can not be true is if you believe that the spawn council started without roles (or one of the original 3 did at least)

[hoopsguy]

Damn you hoops, stop being a whiny bitch.

NOW, explain your theory about the votes on day 3, I don;t have an issue with looking at votesa to find another spawn, never said I did.

I don't see how you can make a connection between the voting on day 3 and use that as evidence or your "coordinated attack theory" that alls.

Please continue with the voting informatoin.

The crux of my debate with Alan is over the value of Day 3 voting - or at least that is where I perceive to be the important point.

If Telle was acting in conjunction with another party on N2, then the other Spawn knew who she was - she was not some spawnling that came into being and was cut off from communicating with others. So they would try, if possible, to keep her alive on D3.

If, as Alan suggests, the Spawn did not have the ability to communicate with either LSG or Telle because they were not part of the Spawn Countil, then there is minimal value in the voting records because they would have no reason to protect someone who is not a spawn.

You really do need to put aside your willing suspension of disbelief and think that I mightactually know what I'm talking about in regards to my PM and Telle from N2. If you aren't willing to do that, then that does minimize the reasons to look at D3 voting records.

So I'm not just trying to argue with Alan because he is fun to bicker with (sometimes that is the case, but not all that much in mid-game) but because I think it is important in catching future spawn. I don't think this represents some kind of "perfect world" scenario. It just means that my reading comprehension is better than a 5th grader when it comes to Barkeep language.

[hoopsguy]

I'll apologize now for the whiney bitch comment. The self pitying "lets talk tiddlywinks" comment pissed me off for a second.

And I'll apologize for a couple of the posts I *almost* made :)

[hoopsguy]

So, next question - one that I have zero insight into ... do people think that Day 4 voting, in a close showdown between LSG and Bullet, was random? Were the wolves flying blind on this one?

I'm guessing that the villagers don't have any insight into the answer, but thinking about this should shape your thoughts on the relative value of vote analysis from Day 4 in guiding a Day 5 decision.

[RendeR]

Ok, well spawn council aside, I think the D3 voting could tell us at least a place to look anyway. I'm not convinced of the coordinated attack, no matter what you feel your PM tells you. The entire scene that night just doesn't feel that way to me based on what you described.

I guess my gut says "The attack scenario is the obvious thing, therefore its probably wrong."

I'm not ruling out that either or both were on the council.

If that were true then only 1 of the starting spawn (if we assume 3 from the landing message) had a special role. 2 normals and a queen.

Which fits fine with the rules as posted, they would then try to make the overlord, and the 'special' spawn have to develop later anyway based on how I read the rules, so I'm thinking if this WERE the case, any spawnling come spawn are candidates to become those other special roles like hidden or psionic etc etc.


just rambling here but its a good thing to think on.

[oliegirl]

OK, I seriously think my head is going to explode after reading the Hoops/AlanT back and forth, then RendeR got involved and I got even more mentally exhausted! However, after going over it a few times, I am leaning toward the fact that Hoops is a wolf and all his suspicion/interpretation of the Telle spying PM he received is his way of throwing us off his trail. I also think there is a chance that AlanT is also bad and they are in cahoots together and purposely confusing things. I'm going to enjoy the last few hours of my weekend and will check back in tomorrow morning...

[claphamsa]

OK, I seriously think my head is going to explode after reading the Hoops/AlanT back and forth, then RendeR got involved and I got even more mentally exhausted! However, after going over it a few times, I am leaning toward the fact that Hoops is a wolf and all his suspicion/interpretation of the Telle spying PM he received is his way of throwing us off his trail. I also think there is a chance that AlanT is also bad and they are in cahoots together and purposely confusing things. I'm going to enjoy the last few hours of my weekend and will check back in tomorrow morning...

um... I dont see any way to conisder alan bad... anyoyying yes... but bad? no. neither on hoops. hoops has done too much and alan... well hes been cleared. so. are you a wolf? I thoguht i made bad arguemtns :)

[Tyrith]

I had to try very hard to stop from getting ticked at all three of you for that little exchange. I think you all know better than doing what you spent your time doing there.

[RendeR]

OK, I seriously think my head is going to explode after reading the Hoops/AlanT back and forth, then RendeR got involved and I got even more mentally exhausted! However, after going over it a few times, I am leaning toward the fact that Hoops is a wolf and all his suspicion/interpretation of the Telle spying PM he received is his way of throwing us off his trail. I also think there is a chance that AlanT is also bad and they are in cahoots together and purposely confusing things. I'm going to enjoy the last few hours of my weekend and will check back in tomorrow morning...

This makes no sense based on what we know from scans, care to think it over again and try sometihng else?

um... I dont see any way to conisder alan bad... anyoyying yes... but bad? no. neither on hoops. hoops has done too much and alan... well hes been cleared. so. are you a wolf? I thoguht i made bad arguemtns :)


I'm with ya on that one.

[claphamsa]

all 3 of alan hoops and render? yeah they shoudl have better thigns to do on sunday night :)

[KWhit]

Wow. A lot of stuff to think about. On the question of Telle's actions the night Hoops followed her:

It kind of sounds from what hoops says that it may have been Telle helping with a conversion. I remember back in one of the other Spawn games (I re-read them both last week) that someone was converted while in the brig with 2 spawn. What struck me as odd was that another spawn assisted this who wasn't in the brig with them. If I imagine what that might have looked like, I picture something like what Hoops describes. The explanation of the event afterwards said something to the effect that the 2 spawn in the brig did most of the work and the 3rd outside did just a tiny bit (basically like a modifier to the roll). So I'm not suggesting that any of us in the brig was converted this game since I feel really strongly that Alan is good and I think Path is too.

But maybe Telle was just assisting the queen in a conversion attempt and for that she only had to concentrate from wherever she happened to be. It's all mind power on conversions I believe (from previous spawn games).

So the other question is, "Is Telle likely to have been able to communicate with the other Spawn?" It's certainly possible. In which case, other Spawn may have tried to save her and the voting records should be looked at.

[hoopsguy]

OK, I seriously think my head is going to explode after reading the Hoops/AlanT back and forth, then RendeR got involved and I got even more mentally exhausted! However, after going over it a few times, I am leaning toward the fact that Hoops is a wolf and all his suspicion/interpretation of the Telle spying PM he received is his way of throwing us off his trail. I also think there is a chance that AlanT is also bad and they are in cahoots together and purposely confusing things. I'm going to enjoy the last few hours of my weekend and will check back in tomorrow morning...

Then I guess I should not bother asking you to undertake a specific night-time activity?

[RendeR]

I'm not trying to say hoops is wrong, he may well be dead on, I'm only saying that its not the only possibility and its not any more or less possible than anything else based on what we actually know.

[hoopsguy]

OK, I'm going to do it anyway:

Guard actions that I would like to see, given that no one gets to sleep:
1.) Schmidty guards water
2.) Saldana guards slaves
3.) Olie + Mrs Schmidty guard the two doctors. Feel free to switch off one of them and guard a building or a member of the "cleared list" if you don't trust my intentions
4.) I'll look at guarding a room - again, join me in this task if you think I'm being suspect in my motives tonight

[Tyrith]

Alright, a general theory post -

I don't we can play this game in perpetual fear and searching for the unaware spawn. Yes, it's going to cause a problem for us at some, probably. However, us trying to clear people that have been cleared -- especially cleared recently -- is going to be really low probability compared to lynching uncleared people.

For hoops, there are only two results he can be -- unaware spawn or good. You have to be ultra confident he's the unaware spawn to take the risk of killing him before we go down our list of uncleared people further. That just seems like an extreme and silly risk to take when we have so many other things to do. If you don't trust him, just marginalize his advice. There are plenty of other spawn to kill for now.

[hoopsguy]

Note - in making those suggestions I'm going very much against my desires to go after a wolf tonight. I think I know who would be the optimum scan, but I'm looking right now at sitting tight on a room.

[RendeR]

Just to restate this so we all remember it. They've only had THREE (3) nights to do anything at all. if we really think about that it cuts down a lot on just how much they could have accomplished.

[KWhit]

Just to restate this so we all remember it. They've only had THREE (3) nights to do anything at all. if we really think about that it cuts down a lot on just how much they could have accomplished.

Not really, considering that each spawn can have its own action every night.

[oliegirl]

Then I guess I should not bother asking you to undertake a specific night-time activity?

Sure you can - and I probably will b/c I have no proof that you are bad, just a possible theory.

Yeah, it's far fetched, but crazier things have happened in WW. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Hoops turned out to be bad...all I was saying was that from that exchange between Hoops and Alan, I could see where it either or both of them being a wolf could be possible - not likely, but possible.

[KWhit]

And the Hoops/Alan stuff strikes me as villager/villager.

[Alan T]

For those wanting to look at the Telle vote to see what you can find, here it is:

Telle – hoops (2013), Tyrith (2290), jh (2343), Purdue (2406), Danny (2406), Chubby (2478), KWhit (2523), path (2539), LSG (2547), saldana (2567), Pass (2607), oliegirl (2604),
No execution – Alan (2006), Packer (2459), Marc (2482), render (2556)
Chubby - Bullet (2498)
Bullet – Mrs. Schmidty (2529), 2581 (Telle)

From the ones who didn't vote for Telle, myself, Marc and Render are all clean.. Telle obviously was a spawn.. that leaves Bullet and Mrs.Schmidty...

I felt yesterday when I pushed the LSG vote that Bullet seemed to be offered up as a pansy to vote for, the way it happened and the reasons for it just didn't seem likely spawn to me.

Mrs.Schmidty is obviously one of the people I said if I was spawn, I would go after to convert, but at the time of the Telle vote, she likely wouldn't have been a spawn anyways unless she started as one...

Everyone else vote for Telle.

[oliegirl]

Dola - just saw you already put your request in...I was planning on guarding one of the doctors anyway :)

I don't really know who might be a spawn at this point, there are so many different possibilities to take into account - conversions vs. original spawn, overlord evolved or not, etc...I am not a math person so when everyone starts talking percentages and numbers, I get very confused and it's hard to follow along and keep track of everything. I am fairly confident that Alan is good, but he was cleared fairly early, right? Is it not possible that he was converted after his original scan? Because of the conversion factor, I don't see how we can put a lot of faith into scans that were done before we took off from the planet...maybe I'm missing something, it's possible, it's my first spawn game and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't overwhelmed and didn't feel that I am in a little over my head...but I'm still trying to play the game and help the villagers win.

[Alan T]

dola, oh packer also didnt vote for Telle.. I guess packer is someone who has been under suspicion so far, but out of the missions that ran, the fact he was paired up with telle and still halfway did decent means to me he either isn't a spawn, or wasnt then (but became spawnling after the fact), or just got lucky die rolls.

[Alan T]

Dola - just saw you already put your request in...I was planning on guarding one of the doctors anyway :)

I don't really know who might be a spawn at this point, there are so many different possibilities to take into account - conversions vs. original spawn, overlord evolved or not, etc...I am not a math person so when everyone starts talking percentages and numbers, I get very confused and it's hard to follow along and keep track of everything. I am fairly confident that Alan is good, but he was cleared fairly early, right? Is it not possible that he was converted after his original scan? Because of the conversion factor, I don't see how we can put a lot of faith into scans that were done before we took off from the planet...maybe I'm missing something, it's possible, it's my first spawn game and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't overwhelmed and didn't feel that I am in a little over my head...but I'm still trying to play the game and help the villagers win.

I will give you the same opportunity that I gave claphamsa when he chickened out of his attack on me..

If I was converted, which player converted me. Your choices are kwhit, path or render.

[RendeR]

Actually alan, look at the timing of Telle's vote. VERY late, like last if I'm not mising anything.

If I knew I was about to be lynched, I'd vote for one of my fellow spawn to give them a smidgeon of trust in the eyes of the others.

Am I way off base to think that way?

[Alan T]

Actually alan, look at the timing of Telle's vote. VERY late, like last if I'm not mising anything.

If I knew I was about to be lynched, I'd vote for one of my fellow spawn to give them a smidgeon of trust in the eyes of the others.

Am I way off base to think that way?

If we are going on the assumption that she knew who the other spawn were (which I don't believe myself), then I guess it is possible.. but I bet if you look at past games, a wolf about to go down is probably less than 50% in history voting for one of their own. It is one of those plays that is neat to think about but not really done that often in that situation.

[hoopsguy]

For those wanting to look at the Telle vote to see what you can find, here it is:

Telle – hoops (2013), Tyrith (2290), jh (2343), Purdue (2406), Danny (2406), Chubby (2478), KWhit (2523), path (2539), LSG (2547), saldana (2567), Pass (2607), oliegirl (2604),
No execution – Alan (2006), Packer (2459), Marc (2482), render (2556)
Chubby - Bullet (2498)
Bullet – Mrs. Schmidty (2529), 2581 (Telle)

From the ones who didn't vote for Telle, myself, Marc and Render are all clean.. Telle obviously was a spawn.. that leaves Bullet and Mrs.Schmidty...

I felt yesterday when I pushed the LSG vote that Bullet seemed to be offered up as a pansy to vote for, the way it happened and the reasons for it just didn't seem likely spawn to me.

Mrs.Schmidty is obviously one of the people I said if I was spawn, I would go after to convert, but at the time of the Telle vote, she likely wouldn't have been a spawn anyways unless she started as one...

Everyone else vote for Telle.

I think the more interesting point on this day isnt' the final votes, but where people were earlier in the day - how hard they fought my Telle vote before I was scanned as good, and if they still threw out arguments shortly afterwards.

[oliegirl]

I will give you the same opportunity that I gave claphamsa when he chickened out of his attack on me..

If I was converted, which player converted me. Your choices are kwhit, path or render.

With Path's ability to scan, it would be easy for him to be a wolf and give us fake scan results - however that doesn't seem to be the case. Between Kwhit and RendeR - I don't know. That is where the overwhelmed thing kicks in for me and I don't know what to think. :(

[Alan T]

With Path's ability to scan, it would be easy for him to be a wolf and give us fake scan results - however that doesn't seem to be the case. Between Kwhit and RendeR - I don't know. That is where the overwhelmed thing kicks in for me and I don't know what to think. :(

Considering Path was scanned by Marc, who was empath scanned by Chubby... that is alot of spawn coordination for path to actually be a spawn to clear me as a spawn.

[oliegirl]

I just submitted my night action, do you want me to say who I am guarding so that Mrs S and I don't double up on the same person and leave a doctor unguarded?

[oliegirl]

Considering Path was scanned by Marc, who was empath scanned by Chubby... that is alot of spawn coordination for path to actually be a spawn to clear me as a spawn.

I agree. Never said it was probably, but it is possible. I doubt it's the case, but we don't know how much communication they have -whether or not they evolved the overlord before we left the planet - there are so many unknowns that it's hard to feel positive about anything one way or another - at least for me. Maybe it's the numbers that are getting in my way...I don't know but I'm having a hard time getting a gut feel on anyone or trusting anyone in this game.

[RendeR]

Doesn't help when the circle of trust is at one another's throats most of the time either ;)

[hoopsguy]

I just submitted my night action, do you want me to say who I am guarding so that Mrs S and I don't double up on the same person and leave a doctor unguarded?

Probably not - unless you feel awfully good about Mrs Schmidty.

Let the wolves determine if a 50% shot is worth going after that role as opposed to taking out someone else who is exceedingly likely to be unguarded.

We should (hopefully) have the brig back in the mix tomorrow to free up some of the guarding duties, assuming we keep a full team.

[oliegirl]

Doesn't help when the circle of trust is at one another's throats most of the time either ;)

That is a good point and maybe that is where my confusion is coming from. I've been looking to Hoops for guidance throughout the game, and have had no reason not to trust him from that side of things. But considering he and Alan are supposedly both cleared good yet they had such a heated and differing exchange, it just makes me wonder. We are heading into day 5, there should be some level of trust between the 2 of them at this point and that exchange earlier made me feel that there wasn't...which is where my idea of either of them (or both) possibly being a wolf came from.

[Danny]

I put in to work on the water plant. I'm pretty sure from earlier posts that Tyrith, Clap and someone else was going to the Slave pens and Jeheinz somewhere else, so the plant should be fixed for tomorrow.

[Barkeep49]

It is not a night that any of you would like to repeat. There are loud noises that emanate from the slave pen where Saldana can be seen guarding and Tyrith, clap, and Purdue can be seen working. There is less noise in the water plant where Schmidty is guarding and Danny & jeheinz are attempting to work. hoops, meanwhile, is spotting keeping watch over the Cargo hold, just as Pass is on the Security HQ. Mrs. Schmidty & olie are seen lurking around the ship. The already sleepless and noisy night gets worse when in the morning, path, Marc Vaughn, and RendeR don’t show up for breakfast. A search is launched through-out the ship, and their three bodies, all brutalized, are found.

Room Reports
Engine Room – Operational (Undamaged)
Water Plant – Operational (Undamaged)
Cargo Hold - Damaged 3 cycles to repair (Maximum Capacity: 125 units)
Water Supply – 23 units (Enough reserves for for just barely over 1 day at current consumption)
Crystilium Supply – 95 units (at least 75 required)
Security Headquarters Damaged 3 cycles to repair
Brig -
Weapons Locker – 3 unspent phasers (2 spent)
Slave Pens – Damaged 4 cycles to repair
Sleeping Quarters – Damaged. 23 berths requiring repair (enough berths for 0 people to sleep)

The Crew

Command Staff
Captain - Alan T Exhausted
First Officer – Kwhit Exhausted
Second Officer - Hoopsguy Exhausted
Security Chief - Chubby Exhausted

Chief Engineer - Tyrith Exhausted

Engineers
PurdueBrad Exhuasted
Danny Exhuasted
JeHeinz72 Exhuasted
Claphamsa Exhuasted


Medical Staff
Doctor - Passacagalia Exhausted
Medic - The Jackal Exhausted
Medic - bulletsponge Exhausted

Security Staff
Sergeant at Arms - oliegirl Exhausted
Galley Master - Schmidty Exhausted
Slavemaster – Saldana Exhausted
Security Crewman - Mrs. Schmidty Exhausted

Scientists

PackerFanatic Exhausted

Deceased
Telle - Spawn
mccollins – Survivor
Lonestargirl – Spawn
Marc Vaughn – Survivor
path12 - Survivor
RendeR - Survivor

[Barkeep49]

Quick note: If this game is still going after Thursday there will be an early deadline for Day 8. I am seeing Batman Begins at midnight and will want to sleep in on Friday. As such, actions will be due at 3:30 Eastern so that I can process them before I go to sleep.

[PackerFanatic]

I assume you mean The Dark Knight? ;)

[PackerFanatic]

Holy crap, three dead?

[saldana]

holy shit...that is not good

[Passacaglia]

If we have a bodyguard in this game, they fucked up royal.

[Passacaglia]

Looks like we do:

SlayerMay protect any person, overnight, including himself, during the night cycle. He gains the status "Resistant" and "Brutal" when protecting and is considered the Attacker. He will not become exhausted using this ability.

[saldana]

hey pass, how did you move up to be a doctor?

[Passacaglia]

I guess that could have been mccollins, though.

[Chubby]

aww crap, shitty night for us.


My plan for the weekend was to stay the fuck quiet so I didn't attract any attention to me so I would stay alive. It worked but we lost three trusted guys in the process :(

I DO still have one empath scan left and would like to use it today. I'd like to scan someone who I don't have a great feel for but I'm open to suggestions.

I have a closing shift tonight at work (hence I'm online now) which means I have to leave for work at 12:30 PM EST and won't be home til 10:30-11PM EST so I will have to get a vote in before I leave.

Lynch bulletsponge

He's still my #1 suspect but I will move my vote if someone else jumps to the lead.

[hoopsguy]

OK, what the heck happened with Olie and Mrs Schmidty in terms of guarding?

[hoopsguy]

aww crap, shitty night for us.


My plan for the weekend was to stay the fuck quiet so I didn't attract any attention to me so I would stay alive. It worked but we lost three trusted guys in the process :(

I DO still have one empath scan left and would like to use it today. I'd like to scan someone who I don't have a great feel for but I'm open to suggestions.

I have a closing shift tonight at work (hence I'm online now) which means I have to leave for work at 12:30 PM EST and won't be home til 10:30-11PM EST so I will have to get a vote in before I leave.

Lynch bulletsponge

He's still my #1 suspect but I will move my vote if someone else jumps to the lead.

I would suggest using your scan on either Saldana (some kind of "i'm not a spawn" statement") or Danny ("I believe that each of the engineers are human") to test his Spawn Aware findings.

[Chubby]

Thinking out loud:

AlanT/hoops - Was mighty confused last night and wanted to chime in but didn't because I thought I was a night kill threat. I think they are villager/villager and were going thru similar stuff to myself/MV. Just my read having played before with them.

As others have said: Pass is doctor? (not that I would complain) and what happened with the guarding last night?

[saldana]

I would suggest using your scan on either Saldana (some kind of "i'm not a spawn" statement") or Danny ("I believe that each of the engineers are human") to test his Spawn Aware findings.

we apparently still have a doctor as well (no idea how)...since they are both here right now, perhaps they should coordinate

[Barkeep49]

"I'd like you to come with me," the newly anointed Security Chief Chubby says to oliegirl.

[Passacaglia]

hey pass, how did you move up to be a doctor?

I'm a Duplicant. When mccollins died, I took his training equipment, and trained myself to become a Doctor. I wanted to train myself to become a Trainer, but BK wouldn't let me. :p

[Schmidty]

BK - I was the person guarding the water plant, not Pass.

[Passacaglia]

we apparently still have a doctor as well (no idea how)...since they are both here right now, perhaps they should coordinate

The problem is we leave the Warden spot empty -- however, I figure that you're a good person to replace me there. You probably won't have much to do as slave master once we kill the slaves anyway.

[hoopsguy]

Also, the failure of anyone to guard the doctors suggests that we have a compromised security detail. I recognize that I'm part of that group and I'll take questions on my actions as people have them. Sadly, I don't have anything to report in terms of night details.

In terms of our Captain, he has asked a couple of times which person could have infected him. Well, two of the three have been eliminated at this point (Path and RendeR). So KWhit is the last of the group who could possibly have compromised our trust group.

KWhit was out in the open on N1 and Mrs Schmidty claimed to have guarded him. The risk is highest around her, in my opinion because we lose our trust for Alan and KWhit (by virtue of Brig protection) if she shows up Spawn.

So for me, with zero seer scans, today shakes out as a case of playing the percentages (Saldana) vs playing the worst-case scenario (Mrs Schmidty).

I'm very intersted in the thoughts others may have on these two candidates, as well as others. We are officially playing werewolf at this point - no seer, no more conversions, and a bunch of spawn on the loose.

[Barkeep49]

BK - I was the person guarding the water plant, not Pass.
This is correct. Pass was guarding the Security HQ.

[RendeR]

":":":":": You're alll SCREWED....SCREEEEEWeweweweweEEEEWWWWwwwwwwwed ":":":":"":":



/ghostly interaction

[Passacaglia]

BK - I was the person guarding the water plant, not Pass.

Yeah, I was guarding the Security HQ.

[Schmidty]

This is correct. Pass was guarding the Security HQ.

Ok, I just wanted to clarify it since I wasn't mentioned.

[Barkeep49]

Ok, I just wanted to clarify it since I wasn't mentioned.
Yeah I had messed up. The correct info is now in the post.

[Alan T]

I'm a Duplicant. When mccollins died, I took his training equipment, and trained myself to become a Doctor. I wanted to train myself to become a Trainer, but BK wouldn't let me. :p

Nice trick!


As for the night actions, they pretty much happened like I figured they would. Of course this continues along my gut feeling that not many people seem to like.. if I was a spawn, I would have converted security personal early on.. they have an excuse to be out at nights, and then when we get to this phase of the game, everyone is a sitting duck... So it wouldn't be anyone's suprise if I'm looking at oliegirl and Mrs.schmidty right now.


Engineers, please repair the slave pens today, I can't kill the slaves until they are fixed. They should have been fixed last night, so I'm not sure what happened to them unless someone sabotaged them further (which shouldn't have happened with saldana guarding them)

[hoopsguy]

Ah, had not thought about the ramifications on the position switches with RendeR out of the mix.

Pass as duplicant - speaks in his favor, but there was a 50% chance of a Spawn keeping that power if I recall correctly. Still, I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth today.

[claphamsa]

crap, so 3 of us working on the slave pens... and they beceame more damaged... according to my PM i think the slaves did the damage not one of us tho :(

[hoopsguy]

Nice trick!


As for the night actions, they pretty much happened like I figured they would. Of course this continues along my gut feeling that not many people seem to like.. if I was a spawn, I would have converted security personal early on.. they have an excuse to be out at nights, and then when we get to this phase of the game, everyone is a sitting duck... So it wouldn't be anyone's suprise if I'm looking at oliegirl and Mrs.schmidty right now.


Engineers, please repair the slave pens today, I can't kill the slaves until they are fixed. They should have been fixed last night, so I'm not sure what happened to them unless someone sabotaged them further (which shouldn't have happened with saldana guarding them)

So what was fixed last night?

[claphamsa]

Nice trick!


As for the night actions, they pretty much happened like I figured they would. Of course this continues along my gut feeling that not many people seem to like.. if I was a spawn, I would have converted security personal early on.. they have an excuse to be out at nights, and then when we get to this phase of the game, everyone is a sitting duck... So it wouldn't be anyone's suprise if I'm looking at oliegirl and Mrs.schmidty right now.


Engineers, please repair the slave pens today, I can't kill the slaves until they are fixed. They should have been fixed last night, so I'm not sure what happened to them unless someone sabotaged them further (which shouldn't have happened with saldana guarding them)

slaves were unrully and messing crap up while we were fixing it!

[Alan T]

Also, the failure of anyone to guard the doctors suggests that we have a compromised security detail. I recognize that I'm part of that group and I'll take questions on my actions as people have them. Sadly, I don't have anything to report in terms of night details.

In terms of our Captain, he has asked a couple of times which person could have infected him. Well, two of the three have been eliminated at this point (Path and RendeR). So KWhit is the last of the group who could possibly have compromised our trust group.

KWhit was out in the open on N1 and Mrs Schmidty claimed to have guarded him. The risk is highest around her, in my opinion because we lose our trust for Alan and KWhit (by virtue of Brig protection) if she shows up Spawn.

So for me, with zero seer scans, today shakes out as a case of playing the percentages (Saldana) vs playing the worst-case scenario (Mrs Schmidty).

I'm very intersted in the thoughts others may have on these two candidates, as well as others. We are officially playing werewolf at this point - no seer, no more conversions, and a bunch of spawn on the loose.


Damn hoops, quit saying stuff that makes me want to duke you. Kwhit I know is clean, I have hinted and pretty much came right out and said it for days now. If Kwhit was converted, I would have known. I'll let Kwhit explain how I would have known if he really wants to.. but Hoops, once again when I let things try to die for my eagerness to duke you, you bring up crazy impossible stuff to try to wreck a CoT again.

[hoopsguy]

Dola - just saw you already put your request in...I was planning on guarding one of the doctors anyway :)


Mrs. Schmidty & olie are seen lurking around the ship

path, Marc Vaughn, and RendeR don’t show up for breakfast. A search is launched through-out the ship, and their three bodies, all brutalized, are found.


Olie, I would really like to hear an explanation when you get here.

[Chubby]

I will try to get to the bottom of why the fuck our two docs were guarded last night.

[hoopsguy]

Damn hoops, quit saying stuff that makes me want to duke you. Kwhit I know is clean, I have hinted and pretty much came right out and said it for days now. If Kwhit was converted, I would have known. I'll let Kwhit explain how I would have known if he really wants to.. but Hoops, once again when I let things try to die for my eagerness to duke you, you bring up crazy impossible stuff to try to wreck a CoT again.

Damn, Alan, you are not the person who is the ideal candidate to be vouching for KWhit at this point in the game.

This is far from crazy/improbable - you also said you suspect security. If Mrs Schmidty was a starting Spawn she could absolutely have gone after KWhit on N1. You were in the Brig with him on N2.

I also watched Olie on N1 and saw her spy on Saldana. So she could not have been involved with any kind of illicit activity on N1. This is why I distrust Mrs Schmidty more. Greater risk, more days where she could have been involved with Spawn-like actions.

[hoopsguy]

Alan, did you have your "Absolute Trust" with KWhit going during D1? During D2? When did this kick into play? Let's just put the cards on the table if this is the defense you are using for KWhit. I really want to be able to trust the two of you today, regardless of what we may learn about Mrs Schmidty, because it makes the game a lot easier to play.

[Passacaglia]

Pass, earlier in the game I thought you were answering questions for RendeR because you were in an absolute trust with him. I've spent a fair amount of time trying to figure out what was going on in this area - mainly because I didn't want to burn these guys in public, but also because they are all clear at the outset of the game.

I obviously drifted away from this idea by the time I cast a vote on RendeR during Day 2, but still gave you a little more clearance than others in the thread have done. Really not sure why, once I discarded that theory.

So, since we've got some time to kill and we are both in the thread, I'll pose a couple of questions:
1.) Why did you continue to answer questions for RendeR when he wasn't in the thread on Day 2? I feel pretty safe asking that question publicly now that we are past the point where Spawn can convert.
2.) If you are playing as a villager, then who do you think is putting in effort to paint you as a spawn and why? What does your trust list look like?

hey hoops, sorry I left before getting a chance to read this. I really only skimmed what happened the rest of the day Sunday. I'll try to answer this post, and discuss my opinions on the rest of Sunday, but probably not until I finish this work stuff up, and finish shopping for a home loan. Although, at this point, you probably don't care about my answer to 1), but I guess 2) could still be interesting.

[Alan T]

Alan, did you have your "Absolute Trust" with KWhit going during D1? During D2? When did this kick into play? Let's just put the cards on the table if this is the defense you are using for KWhit. I really want to be able to trust the two of you today, regardless of what we may learn about Mrs Schmidty, because it makes the game a lot easier to play.


Night 1 was the first PM I got, I was the first to come out and say I had it, had path scan me, etc on day 2... I found out night 2 going into day 3 that it was absolute trust. If you look back, you'll find that Kwhit also hinted about it back on day 3 as well. Since day 3, I have not been told once that kwhit left the absolute trust group.. I once again have zero reason to buy anything you are trying to sell here.

[claphamsa]

Night 1 was the first PM I got, I was the first to come out and say I had it, had path scan me, etc on day 2... I found out night 2 going into day 3 that it was absolute trust. If you look back, you'll find that Kwhit also hinted about it back on day 3 as well. Since day 3, I have not been told once that kwhit left the absolute trust group.. I once again have zero reason to buy anything you are trying to sell here.

is the absolute trust just you and kwhitt?

[Schmidty]

Ah, had not thought about the ramifications on the position switches with RendeR out of the mix.

Pass as duplicant - speaks in his favor, but there was a 50% chance of a Spawn keeping that power if I recall correctly. Still, I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth today.

I was the Duplicant. I used my power on day 2 to gain the doctor ability, and used it to scan Render. He was not a Spawn.

Maybe everyone missed my post about that.

[Alan T]

I was the Duplicant. I used my power on day 2 to gain the doctor ability, and used it to scan Render. He was not a Spawn.

Maybe everyone missed my post about that.

If there were two empaths, I don't think it is out of the realm there were two duplicants.. since obviously somehow Pass had to have ended up as a doctor.

[Chubby]

I was the Duplicant. I used my power on day 2 to gain the doctor ability, and used it to scan Render. He was not a Spawn.

Maybe everyone missed my post about that.


Post #?

Do we think in addition to two empaths that we have two duplicants?

[Passacaglia]

I was the Duplicant. I used my power on day 2 to gain the doctor ability, and used it to scan Render. He was not a Spawn.

Maybe everyone missed my post about that.

You probably also missed how we realized there can be two of each role. When MV and Chubby were both arguing that they were the Empath, who was it that kept saying there were probably two Empaths? Me, because I knew there were two Duplicants.

[Chubby]

Alan is too quick for me :)

I am pleasantly surprised how overpowered we seem to be if we indeed started with almost two of everything.

[Schmidty]

You probably also missed how we realized there can be two of each role. When MV and Chubby were both arguing that they were the Empath, who was it that kept saying there were probably two Empaths? Me, because I knew there were two Duplicants.

Yeah, I did miss that apparently. I missed a lot after my psychotic blow-up, and subsequent comatose days since. :)

[hoopsguy]

Alan, you do understand that D3 is a little late in terms of you/KWhit if he was compromised N1 while out in the open and you were in the Brig together on N2?

I'm really not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I'm worried about the chance that our top two officers are bad guys. Just like I can see you being worried that Officer #3 is questioning you if you are good.

[saldana]

since chubby said he has to go soon, i will put an empath-able statement out there for him

i have never done anything that would harm this mission...all my protects and away teams were performed truly, and i am trying to win this game for the villagers.

[hoopsguy]

Yeah, I did miss that apparently. I missed a lot after my psychotic blow-up, and subsequent comatose days since. :)

The days where we really need you in the thread are coming quickly. We need you around to issue orders related to water, probably mid/late week. So hopefully you are able to get some rest and be active in the thread leading up to that time.

[Alan T]

Alan, you do understand that D3 is a little late in terms of you/KWhit if he was compromised N1 while out in the open and you were in the Brig together on N2?

I'm really not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I'm worried about the chance that our top two officers are bad guys. Just like I can see you being worried that Officer #3 is questioning you if you are good.


Actually if I didn't have to kill the slaves today, I would duke you today as I pretty much figure your power play has been to get to captain where you would be a spawn safe from all votes. Your targeting Render early in the game just made me think that, and nothing I have seen since has changed my mind.

[Schmidty]

The days where we really need you in the thread are coming quickly. We need you around to issue orders related to water, probably mid/late week. So hopefully you are able to get some rest and be active in the thread leading up to that time.

Well, my first night back at work was last night, and I'm feeling wide-awake. Unfortunately, I need to go to sleep soon. We dropped our daughter off with her grandparents for a few weeks, so I'll definitely be much more active. Of course, a lot of my activity will be at different times from others.

So don't worry, the water's fine!!! :)

[Tyrith]

There are only so many wars we can fight at once. We're going to have to make some choices based on probabilities, not certainties. I'm willing to concede that if KWhit was converted N1 and then converted Alan then we lose. There are only so many eventualities we can cover with one plan. I'm also mostly willing to concede that if hoops is unaware spawn we lose, too.

I think the security plan is what we're gonna have to go with right now. Mrs. Schmidty stands out to me as well as a strong candidate. Saldana would also work -- right now I don't trust my vibes too much anymore.

Yeah...we're going to have to go back to working on the slave pens today, looks like. Which sucks.

[hoopsguy]

I'm done responding to your duke threats - do it or don't, but stop telling me how you are going to do it.

It will be bad for the ship, the villagers, and whatever other way you want me to frame it for the good guys. But do what you feel that you have to do.

[Tyrith]

BTW, I screwed up last night in ways that will only become clear after the game is over.

[Chubby]

Right now I see myself with 5 options for empath scan:

saldana - the math play but I truly think he's good based on his missions.
danny - spawn aware? (I think this was the guy we were thinking was)
alant/kwhit - absolute trust? already pretty trusted
security crew - clear a security crew member?
other - some other option I[m not thinking of

[claphamsa]

BTW, I screwed up last night in ways that will only become clear after the game is over.

why dont u just tell us now? you were at the slave pens with me and one other engineer.....

[hoopsguy]

Pass, I would like to see you scan either Mrs Schmidty or Danny.

Chubby, I would like to see you use the last part of Saldana's statement ("I am trying to win the game for the villagers") as your scan. That should give intent pretty clearly without muddying the waters too much.

Obviously people get to make up their own mind about what to do, but this is how I would like to see it play out.

If both scans come up good then we figure out where to go from there.

[Tyrith]

I wouldn't use it on Alan/KWhit for the reason I listed above - we just lose if we run down that road and we're wrong, and that seems low probability.

My choice would be Mrs. Schmidty, olie, or Passacagalia.

[Passacaglia]

I wouldn't use it on Alan/KWhit for the reason I listed above - we just lose if we run down that road and we're wrong, and that seems low probability.

My choice would be Mrs. Schmidty, olie, or Passacagalia.

I agree with this -- remember that the unaware spawn believes he is not spawn during the day. So wouldn't that mean an empath scan on him wouldn't work?

[Chubby]

Pass, I would like to see you scan either Mrs Schmidty or Danny.

Chubby, I would like to see you use the last part of Saldana's statement ("I am trying to win the game for the villagers") as your scan. That should give intent pretty clearly without muddying the waters too much.

Obviously people get to make up their own mind about what to do, but this is how I would like to see it play out.

If both scans come up good then we figure out where to go from there.

I don't mind clearing up the Saldana questions once and for all. I just worry that that particular statement could be open to interpretation.

"I am trying to win the game for the villagers"
vs
"i am not a spawn" (tho I'd have to find a quote to use this)

thoughts?

[Passacaglia]

Unaware Spawn During the day, is unaware of being a Spawn (and may not communicate with other Spawn), but will not seem to be a Spawn when tested by other players. At night, assumes normal Spawn powers.

I wonder if this means that if we empath hoops, and his statement was made at night, then it would be testing him as if he were aware of being spawn.

[Chubby]

I wouldn't use it on Alan/KWhit for the reason I listed above - we just lose if we run down that road and we're wrong, and that seems low probability.

My choice would be Mrs. Schmidty, olie, or Passacagalia.

I agree with that logic. As you said, we're basically fucked if they are both spawn. Besides even if they WERE spawn (not saying they are), if we take one out then the other is still captain.

[Tyrith]

Alright, I'll be back around 1-130.

[hoopsguy]

I think you have to be pretty loose with the interpretation to see how a Spawn is trying to win for the villagers.

If there are other statements out there that are better, that is great. But I would keep the statements short (no multiple statement entries) and to the point.

Maybe something like "I have never been involved with any night-time attacks this game" - I would be stunned if Spawn Saldana wasn't out last night, with the idea that he was going to be compromised.

[Chubby]

I agree with this -- remember that the unaware spawn believes he is not spawn during the day. So wouldn't that mean an empath scan on him wouldn't work?

I THINK it only protects him from doctor scans as even as unaware spawn he would still know he was spawn and be making a false statement.

BK can we get ruling on this?

[Chubby]

I think you have to be pretty loose with the interpretation to see how a Spawn is trying to win for the villagers.

If there are other statements out there that are better, that is great. But I would keep the statements short (no multiple statement entries) and to the point.

Maybe something like "I have never been involved with any night-time attacks this game" - I would be stunned if Spawn Saldana wasn't out last night, with the idea that he was going to be compromised.

I just worry that BK says "Hey he voted for a spawn once so technically he was trying to help the villagers win there".

Just pointing out where that statement worries me and as I only have 1 empath scan left, I want to make it count.

[hoopsguy]

Also, just how ballsy is it for the spawn to attack both doctors at night? It makes me think that both Olie + Mrs Schmidty are Spawn, likely without terribly important Spawn roles.

[hoopsguy]

Saldana, would you be willing to make the statement about "no night attacks of any sort this game"? Chubby, would that one be satisfactory to you?

[Chubby]

Saldana, would you be willing to make the statement about "no night attacks of any sort this game"? Chubby, would that one be satisfactory to you?

I think that one is safer. I do think the likelyhood of a spawn saldana not doing any attacks is very low, agree?

[Chubby]

Also, just how ballsy is it for the spawn to attack both doctors at night? It makes me think that both Olie + Mrs Schmidty are Spawn, likely without terribly important Spawn roles.

Very ballsy.

I'm interrogating oliegirl (or attempting to, I think she just got online)

[Danny]

I sent in my request to repair slave pens, will be back at the normal time later, but this doesn't look good for the security staff.

[claphamsa]

I sent in my request to repair slave pens, will be back at the normal time later, but this doesn't look good for the security staff.
as have I!

[Barkeep49]

I THINK it only protects him from doctor scans as even as unaware spawn he would still know he was spawn and be making a false statement.

BK can we get ruling on this?
The unaware spawn could make "I am not a spawn" statements during the day that would show up true. While the player knows, the character does not.

[Barkeep49]

clap and Danny gather their tools, including a wrench that was seen near the Captain, and go to the slave pens to repair stuff.

[claphamsa]

clap and Danny gather their tools, including a wrench that was seen near the Captain, and go to the slave pens to repair stuff.


HA!

[saldana]

Saldana, would you be willing to make the statement about "no night attacks of any sort this game"? Chubby, would that one be satisfactory to you?

i have never performed a night attack of any kind during this game

[Chubby]

The unaware spawn could make "I am not a spawn" statements during the day that would show up true. While the player knows, the character does not.

but during the night would come up false is what you are implying :)

[hoopsguy]

Chubby, I think you have your statement now. Hopefully that is a good one for your scan.

[Chubby]

i have never performed a night attack of any kind during this game

This is what I will go with shortly if I don't hear any objections. I really want to get this scan in today and clear someone. Clearing Saldana would eliminate the spawn being able to use "I'm voting for him because of the %s"