LXXVII Spawn III: Game Over (See Post 4507)

[jeheinz72]

hmm, somehow i read that there wa still some measure of damage to the pens.... i guess thats what happens when im 5 pages back!

It's ok, that's only the eleventieth error you've made in an attempt to pin blame upon me. You're forgiven...again.

You're still not worth lynching, even if you don't become an engineer until tomorrow.

[Passacaglia]

Crap, is this another of those times were Pass has his vote elsewhere, pelts me with questions all day, then switches to me at the last minute and is wrong again?

I hated that.

And anyway, I'm sure you knew that switch was coming!! Didn't I switch my vote at deadline like every day that game?

[Danny]

I read my PM again. I really don't think it is implying Jeheinz is bad.. When it mentions I can feel spawn, it says "THE" and not "A". Personally, I will not be voting for Jeheinz today as tomorrow we should be able to clear this up.

[jeheinz72]

hahahaahahahahahahahaahahah

No. I don't suspect you at all, really. I just don't think you should be trying to get the replicant to scan Danny here -- you seem to think he's not likely to be spawn, anyway.

Well, if I'm understanding correctly, the replicant is a 1-time deal to mimic another power.

I don't think Danny is spawn, just because a lie there would've been a poor play, but on the flip side, I'm not a Spawn and I don't know what the concrete explaination is for why he got the note.

I think if I had to pick, at this point I still prefer the idea that the replicant scan path, clear him, effectively clearing the people he scans since we can brig path to protect him.

[hoopsguy]

Render - initial tweak of suspicion from me with his "throw out a vote and we'll follow" post yesterday, although I didn't comment on it (publicly) at the time. I'll dig up post # if people need to see it. I'm certainly not the only guy who gets bad vibes from those kinds of posts.

Today - we now have two members of the officers cleared by the seer. Regardless of Path's faction, he probably isn't giving fake clears yet (would he?). I know my allegiance, so that leaves RendeR + Telle.

I'm going with my gut on RendeR over the odds on Telle (2 away missions). Her "very successful" initial mission could have been just a good random.org result, but it sounds like today was a good one as well. That is enough to temper my worries about her to a level below RendeR, although I'll likely return to her tomorrow if we lynch RendeR and find him good.

[jeheinz72]

And anyway, I'm sure you knew that switch was coming!! Didn't I switch my vote at deadline like every day that game?


Yeah I did

Yeah you did

And yeah, you were still bleepin' wrong! :D

[Passacaglia]

Well, if I'm understanding correctly, the replicant is a 1-time deal to mimic another power.

I don't think Danny is spawn, just because a lie there would've been a poor play, but on the flip side, I'm not a Spawn and I don't know what the concrete explaination is for why he got the note.

I think if I had to pick, at this point I still prefer the idea that the replicant scan path, clear him, effectively clearing the people he scans since we can brig path to protect him.

I agree with your last paragraph -- that's why all this noise about Danny worries me.

[jeheinz72]

I read my PM again. I really don't think it is implying Jeheinz is bad.. When it mentions I can feel spawn, it says "THE" and not "A". Personally, I will not be voting for Jeheinz today as tomorrow we should be able to clear this up.

This couldn't have been mentioned like before the dissertations I typed up? :D

[hoopsguy]

Hoops (anyone really)

Not to imply you're wrong, just gauging if I should move, what are the repercussions of us lynching RendeR?

You become 2nd officer and Telle becomes Security Chief? Does someone else become Ensign (Tyrith?)

I'm not sure on Ensign - I think we may need to promote/train a new one. Hopefully BK can clarify.

[jeheinz72]

I agree with your last paragraph -- that's why all this noise about Danny worries me.

Yes, and this is admiteddly self-serving, the me/Danny/Aware issue is best served by waiting until tomorrow.

We've got our repair orders in, even if Danny is spawn, if he fakes I'll finish the deal (*hello any security person want to start at least acknowledging the necessity that is guarding the hold?*). If you all believe him and I fake, he'd finish it.

Not dying of thirst should be of chief concern right now.

[path12]

It would make absolutely no sense for me to lie about that message. It is possible I am a spawnling, though it doesn't seem to indicate that if I am reading it correctly. I've already said that even if the message did mean Spawn aware that it doesn't mean you have to be bad.

Again, based on my reading of it, it's possible the message was simply indicating me of a power I am going to have and not necessarily have anything to do with who was near me. I would advise not voting for you today even if I come clean as we'll know more tomorrow.

I agree with this. If Danny is spawn or spawnling, why call attention to himself by mentioning the note on his PM? Makes no sense to me, and I'm a little surprised that hoops is pushing it.

We need to start a CoT. I'm key to that since I'm the one doing scans. The replicant should scan me -- that way we know my scans can be trusted and we can start building some solid trust circles here. Scanning Danny is taking a shot in the dark for vague reasons.

[jeheinz72]

I'm not sure on Ensign - I think we may need to promote/train a new one. Hopefully BK can clarify.

Gotcha. And if a Spawn was to be the 2nd in Command (or whatev) what would be the benefits to the Spawn? I mean of course, you can't really fake a mission. What else could they do in that spot?

[Passacaglia]

Render - initial tweak of suspicion from me with his "throw out a vote and we'll follow" post yesterday, although I didn't comment on it (publicly) at the time. I'll dig up post # if people need to see it. I'm certainly not the only guy who gets bad vibes from those kinds of posts.

Today - we now have two members of the officers cleared by the seer. Regardless of Path's faction, he probably isn't giving fake clears yet (would he?). I know my allegiance, so that leaves RendeR + Telle.

I'm going with my gut on RendeR over the odds on Telle (2 away missions). Her "very successful" initial mission could have been just a good random.org result, but it sounds like today was a good one as well. That is enough to temper my worries about her to a level below RendeR, although I'll likely return to her tomorrow if we lynch RendeR and find him good.

I totally remember the post you were talking about from yesterday -- I don't know the post number either, though.

Can path really give fake clears? He dies if he finds spawn, right? But he can probably fake his action?

By the way, I love that mechanic -- if the seer finds a spawn, just kill them both and move on. Much better than sitting around voting nightfall for a full day (or two).

[Danny]

Shh, I'm raising our post counts!

I was trying to leave some doubt about what the message stated exactly since I don't want the spawn to know for sure. I also don't want to see you get voted for though when I am cleared.

If I get different information tomorrow that could change of course, but for now there's no reason to lynch you.

[hoopsguy]

Pass, I'm cool with having dissenting discussion on the Replicant. I would just remind people that we can have the Trainer bring up a Medic (we have one now, another on the way) who will be able to scan the doc later in the game. So it isn't that we lose our ability to scan Path for the duration if the replicant chooses someone else.

[oliegirl]

I don't like the idea of piling on PF; however, I don't think a No Lynch is a smart move. I have no freaking idea what to do. Throw a random name in the hat? Pile on PF? Take the easy route and vote No Lynch? I'm not going to do what I did yesterday, and vote oliegirl, because I still feel bad about that (Sorry!!!).

All of this indecision, and the need for SOMETHING to happen leads me to this:

Vote PackerFanatic

You should feel bad!!! ;) Just kidding...

I was "this close" to opening up a can of olierage on you last night, but then realized you were tired and it was just a misunderstanding...but I did give you a phaser tonight so you should be happy now :D

[Passacaglia]

Pass, I'm cool with having dissenting discussion on the Replicant. I would just remind people that we can have the Trainer bring up a Medic (we have one now, another on the way) who will be able to scan the doc later in the game. So it isn't that we lose our ability to scan Path for the duration if the replicant chooses someone else.

I don't think Medics can scan.

[LoneStarGirl]

Olie, when can the scientists be expecting phasers?

[LoneStarGirl]

But can converted medics scan?

[oliegirl]

VOTE PACKERFANATIC

Unfortunately, there isn't an overwhelming case against him, but I dont' agree with a no lynch vote and of the candidates we have, he is the most expendable.

[Barkeep49]

I'm not sure on Ensign - I think we may need to promote/train a new one. Hopefully BK can clarify.
No one is automatically made an Ensign. The Second Officer needs to train someone for two days.

[oliegirl]

Olie, when can the scientists be expecting phasers?

When it becomes necessary for them to have them...I guess that would be something you would need to take up with Hoops. I'm taking directive from him on who to give them to. I changed it up a little last night from his suggestions, but followed them today.

[path12]

Can path really give fake clears? He dies if he finds spawn, right? But he can probably fake his action?

By the way, I love that mechanic -- if the seer finds a spawn, just kill them both and move on. Much better than sitting around voting nightfall for a full day (or two).

It's hard to give fake clears when it is announced that the subject of my scan and I go into the office together.....since as you correctly point out, I'm dead if I find a spawn.

This is the third thing that hoops has said today that is giving me the heebie-jeebies. First it was the thing about minimum 3 spawn, then it was pushing the replicant to scan Danny, now it's suggesting I can fake clear. Hoops knows rules better than that, and no way he hasn't read the rules to this game.

I'm thinking hard about switching my vote.

[path12]

I don't think Medics can scan.

Four things.

UNVOTE PACKERFANATIC
VOTE HOOPSGUY

[hoopsguy]

I agree with this. If Danny is spawn or spawnling, why call attention to himself by mentioning the note on his PM? Makes no sense to me, and I'm a little surprised that hoops is pushing it.

We need to start a CoT. I'm key to that since I'm the one doing scans. The replicant should scan me -- that way we know my scans can be trusted and we can start building some solid trust circles here. Scanning Danny is taking a shot in the dark for vague reasons.

Personally, I'm already granting you implicit trust - you are going to get scanned if you stay alive in this game. Whether that is tomorrow or the day after, it doesn't make a ton of difference for me as I'm trying to figure out the right move on D2. Consider "Path's Scans = Trusted" to be a moderate assumption on my part up to this point.

I want to make the right move TODAY. That is my priority at the moment, and that is why I've proposed the idea of scanning Danny today. There are a few outcomes:
1.) Danny is spawnling = cured, duplicant lives as well. Not necessarily the case if/when you scan him later in game (very good)
2.) Danny is good, we have strong reason to believe him being Spawn Aware, path leads to Heinz and we lynch a Spawn (mostly good, bad result for repairs right now)
3.) Danny is good, we have strong reason to believe him being Spawn Aware, but are wrong on Heinz (very bad)
4.) Danny is a Spawn, making a move I don't understand (playing off of Alan?) - we get a Spawn, maybe in a 1:1 trade, that doesn't involve our everyday medic (very good)

[LoneStarGirl]

Four things.

UNVOTE PACKERFANATIC
VOTE HOOPSGUY

explain yourself please

[Passacaglia]

It's hard to give fake clears when it is announced that the subject of my scan and I go into the office together.....since as you correctly point out, I'm dead if I find a spawn.

This is the third thing that hoops has said today that is giving me the heebie-jeebies. First it was the thing about minimum 3 spawn, then it was pushing the replicant to scan Danny, now it's suggesting I can fake clear. Hoops knows rules better than that, and no way he hasn't read the rules to this game.

I'm thinking hard about switching my vote.

IIRC, Spawn I had a fake clear -- the two people involved (dubb and RA, maybe?) went into a room together, then came out an hour later. Faking duties is in the game. It's much better than suggesting that the warden can go in and out of the brig at will! :p

[hoopsguy]

I don't think Medics can scan.

Trainer brings up medic to doctor.

[hoopsguy]

Path, please scan me tomorrow. I would like to be "fake cleared"

I think I've been very consistent in saying I trust your scans, if not entirely you. For that reason, I don't consider it a absolute necessity that you are the target of the replicant early in the game.

[Passacaglia]

Trainer brings up medic to doctor.

Ah, I see. So what happens if we lose the Trainer?

[jeheinz72]

Ah, I see. So what happens if we lose the Trainer?

I believe the cool kids call that Welcome to Shit Creek (wrt making a new doctor)

[path12]

explain yourself please

LSG, sometimes I get the feeling you don't even read the posts. ;) :p

[hoopsguy]

Ah, I see. So what happens if we lose the Trainer?

I believe the cool kids call that Welcome to Shit Creek (wrt making a new doctor)

Another possible use of the replicant? Other than that, I don't see a way to replace this role.

[Danny]

Personally, I'm already granting you implicit trust - you are going to get scanned if you stay alive in this game. Whether that is tomorrow or the day after, it doesn't make a ton of difference for me as I'm trying to figure out the right move on D2. Consider "Path's Scans = Trusted" to be a moderate assumption on my part up to this point.

I want to make the right move TODAY. That is my priority at the moment, and that is why I've proposed the idea of scanning Danny today. There are a few outcomes:
1.) Danny is spawnling = cured, duplicant lives as well. Not necessarily the case if/when you scan him later in game (very good)
2.) Danny is good, we have strong reason to believe him being Spawn Aware, path leads to Heinz and we lynch a Spawn (mostly good, bad result for repairs right now)
3.) Danny is good, we have strong reason to believe him being Spawn Aware, but are wrong on Heinz (very bad)
4.) Danny is a Spawn, making a move I don't understand (playing off of Alan?) - we get a Spawn, maybe in a 1:1 trade, that doesn't involve our everyday medic (very good)

You seem to be ignoring the fact that multiple times I have said that me being cleared doesn't mean lynching Jeheinz is a good action. From the way my message is worded, it does not sound like it is referring to jeheinz. And if it is, we will know tomorrow.

[hoopsguy]

Replicant = Duplicant.

[hoopsguy]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that multiple times I have said that me being cleared doesn't mean lynching Jeheinz is a good action. From the way my message is worded, it does not sound like it is referring to jeheinz. And if it is, we will know tomorrow.

Danny, I've put my vote elsewhere, in part because of what you have said. However, it was suggested that I wasn't being rational in my approach. So I did my best to spell out the argument I had made earlier in the day.

I agree we'll find out more info tomorrow on you + Heinz.

[LoneStarGirl]

LSG, sometimes I get the feeling you don't even read the posts. ;) :p

haha sometimes I dont... but i wanted you to explain the 'four things' not the vote for hoops.

[path12]

Path, please scan me tomorrow. I would like to be "fake cleared"

I think I've been very consistent in saying I trust your scans, if not entirely you. For that reason, I don't consider it a absolute necessity that you are the target of the replicant early in the game.

hoops, I'm not saying that you do or don't trust me or my scans -- I think my actions in this game have been pretty upfront and clear, and once I hit a spawn we'll know 100% about me. My vote for Packer was based more on who is or isn't more expendable. My switch to you is more based on a bad feeling I'm getting based on the points I've noted above (though I guess Pass is correct that I could fake scan if I wanted to play that, I hadn't considered that -- but man, if the seer is bad off the bat the survivors were screwed anyway!), and that a medic could be eventually trained up to doctor and then scan......and I'd always prefer to vote on an actual feeling than just who can we spare, if that makes sense.

[Poli]

About time to bow out of watching this game. I'm down some 16 pages.

[path12]

haha sometimes I dont... but i wanted you to explain the 'four things' not the vote for hoops.

It's hard to give fake clears when it is announced that the subject of my scan and I go into the office together.....since as you correctly point out, I'm dead if I find a spawn.

This is the third thing that hoops has said today that is giving me the heebie-jeebies. First it was the thing about minimum 3 spawn, then it was pushing the replicant to scan Danny, now it's suggesting I can fake clear. Hoops knows rules better than that, and no way he hasn't read the rules to this game.

I'm thinking hard about switching my vote.

To quote the post where I gave my reasons. Also my last post I back off a little bit on the third and fourth point (which was about the medic scanning).

[KWhit]

It's hard to give fake clears when it is announced that the subject of my scan and I go into the office together.....since as you correctly point out, I'm dead if I find a spawn.

This is the third thing that hoops has said today that is giving me the heebie-jeebies. First it was the thing about minimum 3 spawn, then it was pushing the replicant to scan Danny, now it's suggesting I can fake clear. Hoops knows rules better than that, and no way he hasn't read the rules to this game.

I'm thinking hard about switching my vote.

Yes, yes.

Almost everything Hoops has said this game has given me the heebie-jeebies.

I am definitely on board with this.

Unvote No Lynch
Vote Hoopsguy

[hoopsguy]

This seems like a pretty good time to break out the initial "trust list". I'm pretty pleased that we are still seeing conversation even without the pressure of votes, more or less.

Trusted (in order): self, Alan (most recent scan), KWhit (yestedays scan, supposedly guarded), Olie (verified her night action), Saldana (Olie verified her action)
Neither: everyone not listed, although right now Jackal + Chubby are closer to distrusted than trusted
Distrusted (last listed = most distrusted): PackerFanatic (exhausted), Bulletsponge (exhausted), Heinz (either good or bad read), Telle (Officer Theory + 2 away missions), RendeR (Officer Theory + good/bad read)

[hoopsguy]

I'd always prefer to vote on an actual feeling than just who can we spare, if that makes sense.

Same argument I made most of the afternoon about Heinz, so I can't hold this against you.

[Danny]

Danny, I've put my vote elsewhere, in part because of what you have said. However, it was suggested that I wasn't being rational in my approach. So I did my best to spell out the argument I had made earlier in the day.

I agree we'll find out more info tomorrow on you + Heinz.

Sounds good.

I do understand suspicion on you honestly. You've made a few plays that seem wolfish to me too. On the other hand, if you are a wolf, would you have made those plays that seem wolfish? I'd prefer to see a two man race either way

Vote Hoopsguy

[PurdueBrad]

Hoops always gives me the heebie-jeebies and I usually avoid voting for him because I'm always certain he'll turn it on me. Hoops is a vote that I think I can follow but I'm still not sure.

I've been bothered by his early push that an engineer is likely a spawn when the numbers don't bear it out more than any other position (and even less so than the officers I believe). Also, his strong suspicion or push that there could be four starting spawn when the best info we have does say two or three.

I'm likely to move my vote but we'll see as I'm not super-excited about voting the security officer either.

[PurdueBrad]

Plus I hate voting into the middle of a run so I'll hold off for a while to make my decision.

[hoopsguy]

To quote the post where I gave my reasons. Also my last post I back off a little bit on the third and fourth point (which was about the medic scanning).

Point #1 - I honestly don't get why you would think it is bad I'm playing against one too many opponents rather than one too few? This is the worst reason of all the ones you listed, in my opinion. Beyond that, neither of us can prove the point if we aren't Spawn. We'll see in the post-game, but I will be absolutely shocked if there were only two starting spawn.

Point #2 - I've laid out my points on the Danny duplicant thing in a lot of detail, but you don't comment on the scenarios I paint, just that I don't want you scanned. If you are good, then why is it so important for you to be scanned instead of scanning someone who might be a Spawn? I know the obvious "because others need to trust my scans for the COT" but I think I've addressed this in multiple posts. The duplicant isn't the only path to scan you.

Point #3 and Point #4 - you say that you've backed off them, so I won't continue debating.

Look, if your gut says I'm Spawn then go ahead and try to lynch me. But if you actually want to have a discussion on the points then I'll be around to do so. Plus you have it entirely in your power to clear me tomorrow - just as you did today.

[jeheinz72]

I think the issue, at least my issue hoops, with #1 is that it's fine to play against one too many when A) It's feasible and B) You're not jiggering numbers to portray the idea that we should vote into our most important group of people at the moment (the engineers)

[PurdueBrad]

I'm leaving for softball in about half an hour but am really torn on this. IF I vote Hoops, know that it is not meant to be hit and run, that I will have put a ton of thought into it. IF I stay no lynch, it's because Hoops was the #1 way I would've gone and my numbers 2-21 (or however many there are) just don't feel real strong. Although it is starting to look like no lynch is a waste if it can be overridden by a 1/3 minority, even if the other 2/3's are on no lynch.

[KWhit]

My thoughts on Hoops and why I'm voting for him:

Adamantly argued against No Lynch when the prevailing wisdom indicates that one shouldn't lynch unless you have a reason to vote against someone on day one in a game like this with such important external objectives.

Ignored the very clear initial post by BK on how many Spawn we started out with. He did this to pursue a lynch of an engineer - a very important role for us right now.

When that didn't work, turned to the officers going on the offensive with the attitude of "An officer pretty much has to be a Spawn, so go after the other two - not me." He knows he will be scanned soon, so he wants to take others down before he is.

Wants the replicant to scan Danny and not the doc to clear him.

[Passacaglia]

The duplicant isn't the only path to scan you.


It is, if we lynch the guy you have your vote on.

[jeheinz72]

In addition, if RendeR is the one who is lynched, Hoops moves to 2nd Officer, does that aid him in any way (or does Telle also moving up aid him, she does have about a 20% shot at being infected)?

[KWhit]

Point #1 - I honestly don't get why you would think it is bad I'm playing against one too many opponents rather than one too few? This is the worst reason of all the ones you listed, in my opinion. Beyond that, neither of us can prove the point if we aren't Spawn. We'll see in the post-game, but I will be absolutely shocked if there were only two starting spawn.


I think in Spawn 2 we started with 2 spawn. There are a lot of conversions in this ruleset unfortunately.

And the issue isn't are there 2 or 3. It's the fact that you were using 4 (which BK's post said was completely incorrect) in your calculations to indicate that we should lynch an engineer tonight. Now is not the time to lynch an engineer. How can you not see that?

[PurdueBrad]

Okay, here is my change.

unvote no lynch

vote Hoopsguy

Primarily for these two reasons:

1- A no lynch vote is starting to feel like a place where the spawn can hang out and say, "Well I didn't vote to lynch so-and-so" in the instances where we are wrong and I don't want to be left in that group.

2- I am curious by Hoops trying to turn the vote on first the engineers and then on the officers. In one sense, maybe he was trying to address the hard issue that we'll have to confront eventually but on the other hand, it was a bit strong and fairly cavalier in that there was little discussion of how strong the negative consequences could be if we're wrong.

[hoopsguy]

KWhit, you are about as right on this one as you were on your Lathum strategy last game.

Look at my signature! I pretty passionately believe that a lynch is the right option every game. So don't give me "prevailing wisdom" ... that argument has zero bearing on me as good/evil in any given game. In fact, I'm kind of proud going against the prevailing wisdom when it is wrong.

Very clear post = hmm, you say it is two? Is that how clear it is? I maintain it is a big mistake to assume you understand the intent of the moderator. I think 4 is consideraly more likely than 2, no matter what the first post said.

Officers - my earlier argument "against Engineers" was about giving a free pass to four players because they are important for a day. The goal is catching spawn, right? That is mine, and that is why I agreed with the idea that taking a hard look at officers (especially with two cleared) was the better move. I know I should be scanned.

Do you not understand my point that the duplicant does not have to scan Path for us to get value out of his scans, at least for part of the game?

[KWhit]

I have to leave soon, so I'll be leaving my vote where it is. I encourage you guys to think it through, but Hoops is as good a lynch target as any tonight.

[hoopsguy]

It is, if we lynch the guy you have your vote on.

Wrong, I would assume 2nd officer. And, I might argue, make more decisive decisions rather than 1/2 training people. But no reason to go off on that tangent now ....

[Barkeep49]

Look at my signature!

The guy in your sig is an idiot. Trust me.

[PurdueBrad]

If Hoops is lynched, he has some pretty strong abilities. Does somebody move up in the ranks or do we have to train them or do we just lose that position?

[PurdueBrad]

Wrong, I would assume 2nd officer. And, I might argue, make more decisive decisions rather than 1/2 training people. But no reason to go off on that tangent now ....

I've been fairly on the ball with everything that has happened thus far except for this. Exactly what happened with the half-training, if somebody doesn't mind explaining it to me.

[hoopsguy]

I think in Spawn 2 we started with 2 spawn. There are a lot of conversions in this ruleset unfortunately.

And the issue isn't are there 2 or 3. It's the fact that you were using 4 (which BK's post said was completely incorrect) in your calculations to indicate that we should lynch an engineer tonight. Now is not the time to lynch an engineer. How can you not see that?

Look at my vote! I never voted for an engineer. I strongly suspect one, but I did listen to the group rather than going commando on the vote. I also pointed out in the posts that the argument was about excluding a gruop of four from review/consideration.

And the issue is 2, 3, and 4 since you say the post was "very clear". Obviously not, if you are arguing that there are two. There are a ton of roles on both sides, so the conversion stuff should be balanced out by all the special powers we have as villagers. You argued the same thing (I'm pretty sure it was you) when you said that we shouldn't lynch on Day 1!!!

[KWhit]

KWhit, you are about as right on this one as you were on your Lathum strategy last game.

Look at my signature! I pretty passionately believe that a lynch is the right option every game. So don't give me "prevailing wisdom" ... that argument has zero bearing on me as good/evil in any given game. In fact, I'm kind of proud going against the prevailing wisdom when it is wrong.

Very clear post = hmm, you say it is two? Is that how clear it is? I maintain it is a big mistake to assume you understand the intent of the moderator. I think 4 is consideraly more likely than 2, no matter what the first post said.

Officers - my earlier argument "against Engineers" was about giving a free pass to four players because they are important for a day. The goal is catching spawn, right? That is mine, and that is why I agreed with the idea that taking a hard look at officers (especially with two cleared) was the better move. I know I should be scanned.

Do you not understand my point that the duplicant does not have to scan Path for us to get value out of his scans, at least for part of the game?

You should be proud of me. I changed my vote away from No Lynch.

:)

I don't KNOW that you're a spawn. I have no idea. But you are by far the most compelling choice I have tonight because of the reasons I laid out. I could be wrong (in fact, I probably am since the odds of any one person being a spawn are pretty low), but your actions look more suspicious than anyone else.

[Passacaglia]

Wrong, I would assume 2nd officer. And, I might argue, make more decisive decisions rather than 1/2 training people. But no reason to go off on that tangent now ....

What does the 2nd officer have to do with it? Not to fill in blanks for you, but are you suggesting he can train someone? Or assign a trainer? I don't see that in the rules.

[hoopsguy]

I have to leave soon, so I'll be leaving my vote where it is. I encourage you guys to think it through, but Hoops is as good a lynch target as any tonight.

I'm as good a lynch target as any other villager, I guess. Except that I can guard/spy and have a phaser. And that I actually bother to, you know, try to think through the ruleset in a way that helps win rather than just following the tide.

But other than that, you are 100% correct.

[hoopsguy]

What does the 2nd officer have to do with it? Not to fill in blanks for you, but are you suggesting he can train someone? Or assign a trainer? I don't see that in the rules.

I'm confused, you said that we lose out on an ability if we lynch RendeR?

[KWhit]

Look at my vote! I never voted for an engineer. I strongly suspect one, but I did listen to the group rather than going commando on the vote. I also pointed out in the posts that the argument was about excluding a gruop of four from review/consideration.

And the issue is 2, 3, and 4 since you say the post was "very clear". Obviously not, if you are arguing that there are two. There are a ton of roles on both sides, so the conversion stuff should be balanced out by all the special powers we have as villagers. You argued the same thing (I'm pretty sure it was you) when you said that we shouldn't lynch on Day 1!!!

Once again....

I am saying that "it is very clear" that the original number of Spawn WAS NOT FOUR. You continuing to misrepresent my argument to benefit yourself only makes me more confident in my vote.

But I still love you.

[hoopsguy]

Second Officer (Rank 3) (1 AP per cycle)

Give Order: Day OnlySame as Captain’s EXCEPT that he may not modify any other person’s order. 1 AP

Assign Personnel Day Only He may change the position of any member of the enlisted crew (so Private to Slave Master, Galley Master to Medic, etc). This goes into effect the next day cycle. There may not be more than 1 Galleymaster or Slave Master1 AP

Train Officer Day Only The Second Officer may choose a member of the Crew to become an officer (this player will assume the lowest available rank). The Second Officer must train this person on two days (need not be consecutive) in order for the person to become an officer.


Second officer definitely has impact on personnel. Of course, Path would have you believe I don't understand the rules:banghead:

[PurdueBrad]

I'm off to get ready for softball. I'll try to check in quickly in about ten minutes (which likely means 4 more pages of stuff) before I go.

I am waiting to put in my night action until I see if something important got damaged by slaves today. IF nothing was, then I will be working on the engines, likely with my chief engineer.

[hoopsguy]

Once again....

I am saying that "it is very clear" that the original number of Spawn WAS NOT FOUR. You continuing to misrepresent my argument to benefit yourself only makes me more confident in my vote.

But I still love you.

What you mean and what you post may be two separate things. But if you end up getting me lynched over this you are going to look back on it and say, "Boy, that really was a pretty stupid reason to suspect Hoops"

[KWhit]

I'm as good a lynch target as any other villager, I guess. Except that I can guard/spy and have a phaser. And that I actually bother to, you know, try to think through the ruleset in a way that helps win rather than just following the tide.

But other than that, you are 100% correct.

I always enjoy and respect your analysis and your play. Which is why I continue to be amazed that you are arguing against the validity of this statement by our game-master:

But if the fear of turbulence isn’t enough it’s what happens as the emergency lights start to come on that really frightens people: there are sightings of Spawnlings. Not at all once, so people aren’t sure if there is more than one (though through later reexamination it becomes clear that there couldn’t be more than 3), but there was definitely a Spawnling aboard. And then there wasn’t.

Not sure why you continue to argue this.

[PurdueBrad]

Do we want to consider having RendeR (second officer) using, as a day action, the reassign to try and get us one more engineer (although I guess we've picked up claph) or maybe one more security person? I know that means we sacrifice one of another position but it may be worth it.

[jeheinz72]

Ditto. I don't see why hoops continues to insist that it's in any way plausible that we started with 4 Spawn.

[hoopsguy]

Will it make you better if I say there are more likely to be 3 than 4? I do feel that is the case, in part because of that post.

But I don't buy at all that the game started 21-2.

[jeheinz72]

Do we want to consider having RendeR (second officer) using, as a day action, the reassign to try and get us one more engineer (although I guess we've picked up claph) or maybe one more security person? I know that means we sacrifice one of another position but it may be worth it.

I don't think we need another engineer with clap on board.

[jeheinz72]

Will it make you better if I say there are more likely to be 3 than 4? I do feel that is the case, in part because of that post.

But I don't buy at all that the game started 21-2.

What makes you think that BK would intentionally misrepresent the # of starting spawn?

[PurdueBrad]

I don't think we need another engineer with clap on board.

True, although security might be important, particularly if we do end up casting off Hoops.

[hoopsguy]

Ditto. I don't see why hoops continues to insist that it's in any way plausible that we started with 4 Spawn.

Look, I don't get to pick and choose how people analyze the thread and make their decisions. I get that. However, at the completion of this post I'll have 128 posts in the thread. A lot of them have a good amount of content that you can either trust or distrust.

The idea that people are obsessing over me suggesting a 19-4 ratio in a game is mind boggling to me. I'm done responding to it because I'm getting closer to name-calling than I want to in an online forum where I legitimately like most of the people, including those who are fixating on this point.

[hoopsguy]

What makes you think that BK would intentionally misrepresent the # of starting spawn?

Done, as of stuff after Post #1467.

What makes you think that BK would telegraph the # of starting spawn?

[jeheinz72]

But you're not listening to what we're saying. It's not that a 19-4 ratio would be unfair, it's that the moderator seemingly went out of his way to mention there are no more than 3, yet you choose to fly in the face of that.

I'm ready to drop it, but you have to admit that our POV on this should hardly be that shocking.

[jeheinz72]

Done, as of stuff after Post #1467.

What makes you think that BK would telegraph the # of starting spawn?

Because my idea on moderators is that almost unfailingly they aim to make the game fair. Goodies/Baddies/Third Factions, I think almost every GM wants to see each side have a balanced shot at a win. I think a rather large part of that is not intentionally misrepresenting facts to a faction to give another an advantage.

Now if BK hadn't mentioned the starting spawn count at all, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But he did, and in a way that made it hard not to notice.

But anyhow, I won't pepper you on this fact again, I just think it strange that you seem so appalled that a great many of us think you are completely baseless in thinking there are more than 3 spawn.

[jeheinz72]

And with that, I'm out, at least for a few hours, possibly until tomorrow AM.

[hoopsguy]

I'm stunned that this is the rationale to vote for me today. If you vote for me because I distrust you, that I get. I don't get the rest of them, however. Particularly Path who has had a chat with me and the option to scan me every day.

[hoopsguy]

And with that, I'm out for a little while to hang out with my kid until she goes to sleep. Probably 1.5 hours, give or take.

[jeheinz72]

FTR, this isn't the main reason for me.

When innocent, I'm inherently suspicious of those that suspect me. Probably not the wisest tact, but when they come at me with very little (especially the multiple times before Danny said anything) I tend to think I'm being set up. A Spawn setting up an Engineer isn't a bad theory at all.

That and you've made enough minor misnomers and strange posts for it to be go time.

[RendeR]

Without the replicant emerging today, I'm going to be voting for either RendeR or Telle.

If the replicant emerges, then I'll probably act based on the scenario I've outlined above.

OK, I'm going to put a vote out there now - not on PackerFanatic - to see if we can get some kind of discussion going around the Officer/Spawn theory. Heinz/Danny can wait until tomorrow if the replicant isn't coming into play. They'll be working together again tonight - right?

VOTE RENDER

Render - initial tweak of suspicion from me with his "throw out a vote and we'll follow" post yesterday, although I didn't comment on it (publicly) at the time. I'll dig up post # if people need to see it. I'm certainly not the only guy who gets bad vibes from those kinds of posts.

Today - we now have two members of the officers cleared by the seer. Regardless of Path's faction, he probably isn't giving fake clears yet (would he?). I know my allegiance, so that leaves RendeR + Telle.

I'm going with my gut on RendeR over the odds on Telle (2 away missions). Her "very successful" initial mission could have been just a good random.org result, but it sounds like today was a good one as well. That is enough to temper my worries about her to a level below RendeR, although I'll likely return to her tomorrow if we lynch RendeR and find him good.


Ok so basically you're assuming that one of the officers MUST be a spawn and simply voting for one of the two of us not yet cleared? Correct? I just want to be clear on what you think you have against me here.

Pure guesswork. Cool.

VOTE PACKERFANATIC

Unfortunately, there isn't an overwhelming case against him, but I dont' agree with a no lynch vote and of the candidates we have, he is the most expendable.

This is my own reasoning from day 1. Scientists can be replaced and aren't needed to give orders or use actions etc etc etc at this point in the game.


Bleh. No understanding of why suddenly I'm getting flak. I'm just doing my frakin' job.

I'll vote later on, I want to see what comes of all this.

[Danny]

I'm going in the pool for a bit, so i will be back a littler later as well.

[oliegirl]

Dinner is on it's way, so I'm out for a little while...I'll be back about 9ish and then likely out til after deadline/tomorrow morning.

I plan on sleeping tonight if at all possible, I'm exhausted and don't want to end up shooting the wrong person in my foggy brained haze ;) If you'd rather I spy/guard someone, speak up in the next 10 minutes or so please...

[saldana]

Was saldana in that slave pen, guarding is, anyone know? Wouldn't Danny sense him as well?

i was sleeping, and oliegirl spied on me to prove it...i didnt guard because the security system was on when i put my action in

as for those voting for me, do you really think the spawn slept last night?

[Barkeep49]

As I stated earlier I am out now until most likely around 10 PM, possibly later. I don't expect there to be any revelations on the order of the Slave riot tonight.

[hoopsguy]

RendeR, I would argue that mapping out probability with "known" facts (3 of 5, when I include myself, are not spawn) is much further from guessword than a lot of others have done up to this point.

If you are coming at this as a good guy, then I would expect you to find my thought process sound, if not be pleased with the conclusion.

[saldana]

UNVOTE NO LYNCH
VOTE SALDANA

The only other person that has a vote that I feel could be spawn, and he came down on me quite hard - plus he is fairly expendable.

wow...you thought that was "quite hard"...that was a love tap in WW terms...i actually had reasons (been off the ship, exhausted, supported killing the slaves, suggested sending new people off the ship, and was the only injured person trying to use it as an excuse to to take an action today)

[hoopsguy]

Starting with the last vote count post from PF, this is what I show for the votes as of Post #1481:

PackerFanatic (6) - (1090), Tyrith (1129), saldana (1136), Marc Vaughan (1153), The Jackal (1201), Schmidty (1371), Olie (1410)
hoopsguy (5) - jeheniz72 (1219), path (1414), KWhit (1431), Danny (1434), Purdue (1444)
saldana (2) - mccollins (1226), PackerFanatic (1358)
jeheniz72 (1) - claphamsa (805)
claphamsa (1) - Telle (1028)
Render (1) Hoops (1384)

No lynch (3) - Mrs. Schmidty (957), Passacaglia (1206), bulletsponge (1277)

No votes:
Alan T
Render
Telle
LoneStarGirl
Chubby

[hoopsguy]

PackerFanatic will move his vote to me and I'll move mine to him. Then he will be one vote away from the minimum and I'll be two away from the minimum for getting voted off.

As my published trust list shows, there are quite a few people I trust less than PackerFanatic. I'm not 100% sure what to make of the run on me in terms of assessing him, but I guess it makes me feel a smidge better than I would otherwise in voting for him. I still think it is much more likely to be villager/villager here.

OK, kid is done with dinner so I'm out for another hour or so. I'll definitely be around for deadline.

[saldana]

KWhit, you are about as right on this one as you were on your Lathum strategy last game.

Look at my signature! I pretty passionately believe that a lynch is the right option every game. So don't give me "prevailing wisdom" ... that argument has zero bearing on me as good/evil in any given game. In fact, I'm kind of proud going against the prevailing wisdom when it is wrong.

Very clear post = hmm, you say it is two? Is that how clear it is? I maintain it is a big mistake to assume you understand the intent of the moderator. I think 4 is consideraly more likely than 2, no matter what the first post said.

Officers - my earlier argument "against Engineers" was about giving a free pass to four players because they are important for a day. The goal is catching spawn, right? That is mine, and that is why I agreed with the idea that taking a hard look at officers (especially with two cleared) was the better move. I know I should be scanned.

Do you not understand my point that the duplicant does not have to scan Path for us to get value out of his scans, at least for part of the game?

bold is mine...i remember the star wars game, when i put in my opening post that it would be "a pretty basic game of werewolf", and then sat back and cringed everytime someone said "oh, well Sal said it was a basic game, so it couldnt have xxxxx mechanic in it"...that and watching people try to read into Lightsaber colors that were utterly meaningless... i have to agree with hoops on this one

also, i was in the Spawn I game when we had the fake scan...it is absolutely a valid suspicion...no way i am holding that against hoops.

i am much more inclinded to lean toward supporting him against render...i really didnt like his attempted ingratiation towards hoops yesterday

[Danny]

I'm also not set in my vote for Hoops specifically. I did want to see more than one person on the block though, so I am happy for that.

[RendeR]

RendeR, I would argue that mapping out probability with "known" facts (3 of 5, when I include myself, are not spawn) is much further from guessword than a lot of others have done up to this point.

If you are coming at this as a good guy, then I would expect you to find my thought process sound, if not be pleased with the conclusion.


Spoken like a true spin master, however you're defending something I'm not attacking. I am attacking your presumption that there MUST be a spawn among the officers. I'm simply saying you have no way to know that, you're assuming it. You may well be right, but you're still guessing, pulling something out of your ass.

My next question has to be why? Why try to deflect the execution away from packer and onto me? You have no real reasoning outside of your assumption that there MUST be a spawn in the command group.

So why don't you explain it to us? Convince me that you have something other than gut instinct and a guess at what the GM would do to go on?



On another note: I can train privates to become Officers, it takes 2 days. I started to train Chubby on day 1, I then saw that we needed a second medic and assigned Bulletsponge to be a medic today. Tomorrow I will complete Chubby's training and on day 4 he will be available as a new Ensign.

Anyone else have questoins for me? I'll give you whatever I have.

[RendeR]

...
i am much more inclinded to lean toward supporting him against render...i really didnt like his attempted ingratiation towards hoops yesterday


Excuse me? what attempted...what? What did I do yesterday? I don't recall saying much of anything about or to Hoops yesterday?

[saldana]

PackerFanatic (6) - (1090), Tyrith (1129), saldana (1136), Marc Vaughan (1153), The Jackal (1201), Schmidty (1371), Olie (1410)
hoopsguy (5) - jeheniz72 (1219), path (1414), KWhit (1431), Danny (1434), Purdue (1444)

in all my games of werewolf, i dont think i have ever seen a run on a player in that short of span unless it was supported by a positive seer scan...especially a player of hoops' reputation.

[saldana]

Excuse me? what attempted...what? What did I do yesterday? I don't recall saying much of anything about or to Hoops yesterday?

you asked him to essentially tell you who to vote for when he was resisting the no lynch idea...it felt very much to me like you were trying to align yourself with him by following his lead, regardless of what it was.

[LoneStarGirl]

My thoughts on Hoops and why I'm voting for him:

Adamantly argued against No Lynch when the prevailing wisdom indicates that one shouldn't lynch unless you have a reason to vote against someone on day one in a game like this with such important external objectives.

Ignored the very clear initial post by BK on how many Spawn we started out with. He did this to pursue a lynch of an engineer - a very important role for us right now.

When that didn't work, turned to the officers going on the offensive with the attitude of "An officer pretty much has to be a Spawn, so go after the other two - not me." He knows he will be scanned soon, so he wants to take others down before he is.

Wants the replicant to scan Danny and not the doc to clear him.

This is very compelling...but I dont know if it sounds like hoops the spawn

[saldana]

dola, did you need me to use smaller words RendeR? :D

[Passacaglia]

Start with the expendables, and that means the scientists for now. We need the engineers and the privates to repair things and become other roles respectively, the scientists are expendable right now and more can be trained later, so pick one hoops.

Here's the post. Number 344. Hoops mentioned it earlier as well (couple pages ago?), and I replied that I remembered it.

[RendeR]

you asked him to essentially tell you who to vote for when he was resisting the no lynch idea...it felt very much to me like you were trying to align yourself with him by following his lead, regardless of what it was.


nicely blown dola dude =)

No nono, not aligning, in fact it was just the opposite. i was challenging him to give us someone worthy of executing. If you know anything of me and hoops you know its a tenuous allegiance at best of times and more of a "I'll trust you when I have a reason to" sort of thing..

[LoneStarGirl]

I don't want to sleep again tonight but i dont know what else i could do? What kind of research is available to us Packer? I am going to be lonely if you get lynched PF!

Olie... I dont know who i would guard or spy on if i were you, i just wish i had your job instead of being the WW nerd. Maybe somebody important like Mcollins? Or somebody who has already raised suspicion like Telle, Render or Pass??

[RendeR]

This is very compelling...but I dont know if it sounds like hoops the spawn


its more compelling than the arguments we have for anyone else at this point though. So if hoops really wants us to pick someone, and we pick him, then he ought to be happy we at least have some compelling reasoning, no?

[RendeR]

I don't want to sleep again tonight but i dont know what else i could do? What kind of research is available to us Packer? I am going to be lonely if you get lynched PF!

Olie... I dont know who i would guard or spy on if i were you, i just wish i had your job instead of being the WW nerd. Maybe somebody important like Mcollins? Or somebody who has already raised suspicion like Telle, Render or Pass??


You can stay awake in any one of the rooms/areas and watch for spawn activity. preferably in a space where someone else is there that can see you as well. just to cover yourself from accusations tomorrow.

[saldana]

its more compelling than the arguments we have for anyone else at this point though. So if hoops really wants us to pick someone, and we pick him, then he ought to be happy we at least have some compelling reasoning, no?

do you find no credence in my reasoning for PackerFan....not trying to push your vote, just wondering why you are dismissive of it

[Alan T]

Back from my game.. Alot to catch up on, but the main points I'll hit..

I am very upset... well extremely upset that the second I walk out the door, that Hoops tries to steer the duplicant to do something completely opposite of my suggestion, in a way that possibly wastes him and does absolutely nothing for our CoT.. I hope the duplicant did not take Hoops advise there, as we utterly need Path cleared so we don't have that uncertainty sitting over our heads.

I also didn't like Hoops coming out gunning for Render.. pushing a vote on him trying to kill him off a day before he can make a much needed new officer... I really would like to see Render stick around to complete the second day of that training as well as other possibilities (we really really really need a new doctor also in addition to Path and I believe only Render can make one right now).. I also don't like it that Hoops is one of the two people I don't really trust much that I referred to without names this morning would move up into that position if Render died..

If you really want to go down the idea that one of the officers must be a spawn theory, obviously Telle makes the most sense to vote as she has the same percentage as the others, plus the added risk of being off of the ship at risk of infection twice.. Hoops didn't even go that path with his logic, instead he went after the person whom he had to gain if they died (to move up the ladder)...

I think if I vote for any officer to be lynched tonight, I will join the bandwagon on Hoopsguy, but I'll hold off on my vote for a bit to make sure I'm not just peeved at him trying to undermine our CoT for now.

[RendeR]

do you find no credence in my reasoning for PackerFan....not trying to push your vote, just wondering why you are dismissive of it


Not at all, I like the idea od Packer, he's an expendable commodity (no offense packer) So basically my decision is going to come down to Packer or hoops, we only get one.

My nagging fear is the fact that Hoops' sudden shift to attack the officer corps came as packer was about to get a landslide vote. he single handedly stemmed that tide, unfortunately for hoops it created a second movement against himself.

[Alan T]

I think my strongest feelings right now is that I still really don't want to lose any of the personal.. we haven't had a chance to train another doctor, to get a second ensign, etc... we need more people not less...

[RendeR]

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Alan's post.

[PackerFanatic]

I don't want to sleep again tonight but i dont know what else i could do? What kind of research is available to us Packer? I am going to be lonely if you get lynched PF!

Olie... I dont know who i would guard or spy on if i were you, i just wish i had your job instead of being the WW nerd. Maybe somebody important like Mcollins? Or somebody who has already raised suspicion like Telle, Render or Pass??

Nothing as far as I know. I doubt it is a night time research that we can do, but, if I survive, I am going to attempt to sleep. Tomorrow we can research the phasers. I just really hope I make it that far.

[PackerFanatic]

I understand the whole "I'm expendable" argument guys, but really - you would be losing someone that isn't bad and could potentially help you more than you realize (hell, more than I realize) in the future.

[saldana]

i will admit, i didnt notice the timing of hoops change in tack as it related to alan leaving the thread...that changes things in my head a bit

an hour to ponder.

[Schmidty]

I understand the whole "I'm expendable" argument guys, but really - you would be losing someone that isn't bad and could potentially help you more than you realize (hell, more than I realize) in the future.

Ok. Let's see what happens, since I don't care, and see no real reason for anyonw:

Unvote PackerFanatic

Vote hoopsguy

[Alan T]

I need to go shower, but will be back before lynch.. basically to explain why I really don't like Hoops trying to push the duplicant away from scanning Path:

We need the duplicant to scan Path, I know I am good and feel very likely Kwhit is good, once Path is proven to be good, we know we have a rock tight CoT.. the longer we go to only find out later that Path isn't good the worse it will be when we have to start over on building a CoT in this game.. We really need to find out today or tommorrow if Path is good to make sure the CoT is solid..

Hoops wanted to convince the duplicant to scan Danny.. Why? because he claims to have gotten some PM that sounded fairly similar to the PM I already claimed to have gotten earlier in the day... and even if Danny is telling the truth, when I got my PM it was so uncertain what it even meant, I asked Barkeep via PM what it meant.. and then still wasn't sure if it meant I was getting converted or had some power, so I had Path scan me.. and then once he confirmed there was no spawnling, I still wasn't sure what the message meant and only guessed in the thread what it meant.. If Danny's message was anything like that... that means we would have at least two of that secret role (sounds a bit overpowered perhaps depending on what it actually is), and I can't believe Danny knows any better than I do what the message actually meant..

And then even then assume Danny guessed correctly, you then are working on the assumption that jeheinz and him were the only other ones in the room which no security claimed to have guarded...


Just waaaaay too many assumptions to make me happy only to come to the end certain conclusion of Danny might be ok after all....

I just don't like that arguement at all, and really don't like that Hoops waited till I had to leave to spring it.

[RendeR]

I understand the whole "I'm expendable" argument guys, but really - you would be losing someone that isn't bad and could potentially help you more than you realize (hell, more than I realize) in the future.

Personally I don't think you're a spawn currently, but as others have said we have to start breaking eggs sometime.

The issue of the scientists being useful in the future isn't being questioned, but we hjave the ability to train people to be scientists, unless I'm misreading things? So we can replace you is what it comes down to. Then i suppose we can replace everyone at some point.

That leaves the present, and at present we probably need one of you, but not necessarily both.

Honestly I'm not sure who to choose.

[hoopsguy]

its more compelling than the arguments we have for anyone else at this point though. So if hoops really wants us to pick someone, and we pick him, then he ought to be happy we at least have some compelling reasoning, no?

I don't have a problem with being in the discussion for lynch. We are getting people to pick sides and getting people to defend arguments. This is a good thing for the game, even if it is not ideal for me at the moment.

I may not think all arguments are created equal, but that is my job to demonstrate.

Back to catching up ...

[hoopsguy]

Not at all, I like the idea od Packer, he's an expendable commodity (no offense packer) So basically my decision is going to come down to Packer or hoops, we only get one.

My nagging fear is the fact that Hoops' sudden shift to attack the officer corps came as packer was about to get a landslide vote. he single handedly stemmed that tide, unfortunately for hoops it created a second movement against himself.

I would caution against the idea of "perfect world" where you have two wolves caught in an unwitting trap. Almost invariably these type of theories fail - just like they will this time. No idea on Packer, but I'm the wrong guy to lynch today.

[hoopsguy]

I just don't like that arguement at all, and really don't like that Hoops waited till I had to leave to spring it.

I mean this in the nicest possible way - it isn't always about you.

I didn't "spring" it when you left, even if that is your viewpoint. I posted the idea as it came to me - you not being here had zero to do with it.

If given a choice, I would have preferred you were here so we could discuss it. I like having discussion around my ideas about the game, particularly by people who have played the ruleset before, are cleared, and seem interested in winning the game.

[Schmidty]

I'm going to play Civ4, while waiting for the EQ2 trial to d/l, and the lasagna to finish cooking.

BBL. LOL. BFFS. BIO. FFM. PMIN. IHNIWIAS. HOLLA.

[hoopsguy]

Why is it that everyone who votes for me isn't going to come back for deadline (sigh)?

[jeheinz72]

What are we at, 7-6 hoops?

[RendeR]

I would caution against the idea of "perfect world" where you have two wolves caught in an unwitting trap. Almost invariably these type of theories fail - just like they will this time. No idea on Packer, but I'm the wrong guy to lynch today.


What are you talking about? I don't think I have two spawn at all, I am worried that we have one (you at this point) I honestly don't think packer is a spawn, but he IS an expendable commodity so a vote for him isn't as dangerous as for say, an engineer for example.

Don;t try to put words in my mouth, I have no 'perfect world' theories. I've played with you far too often to believe in them ;)

[jeheinz72]

I"m back hoops. Can't say it's likely I'll change though.

[hoopsguy]

I'm pretty much forced to change my vote, although I feel less good about it than my original candidate.

When I'm shown to be good perhaps people will go back to the Officers and use the numbers I listed - 75% chance if three are good that at least one of the other two are bad.

UNVOTE RENDER
VOTE PACKERFANATIC

[path12]

in all my games of werewolf, i dont think i have ever seen a run on a player in that short of span unless it was supported by a positive seer scan...especially a player of hoops' reputation.

It's twice today I've had a bunch of people follow me. I'm not thrilled about it, especially when I said up front that I have no evidence besides gut feeling and some red flags (for me) in posts. Add in the fact that I've been wrong about hoops before.....

[RendeR]

We need 7 to execute someone? or 8?

[hoopsguy]

What are you talking about? I don't think I have two spawn at all, I am worried that we have one (you at this point) I honestly don't think packer is a spawn, but he IS an expendable commodity so a vote for him isn't as dangerous as for say, an engineer for example.

Don;t try to put words in my mouth, I have no 'perfect world' theories. I've played with you far too often to believe in them ;)

So why did I, as a spawn, attempt to save PackerFanatic? Push away from No Vote? How would that be "good play"?

At least give me credit for making good plays the majority of the time, even if you think I'm full of crap today.

[jeheinz72]

For those who played this ruleset before, was it apparent that spawnyness was randomized? Or was it more slotted (say an officer an engineer and a private or some such)?

Just seems whack that it could be completely random, I mean what if it was the Captain, the Doctor and the Chief Engineer. That'd seem like an unwinnable start for the survivors.

[jeheinz72]

8 RendeR, 1/3rd

[hoopsguy]

It's twice today I've had a bunch of people follow me. I'm not thrilled about it, especially when I said up front that I have no evidence besides gut feeling and some red flags (for me) in posts. Add in the fact that I've been wrong about hoops before.....

Add to it that you can scan me tomorrow. Me being lynched is not a good villager result.

[jeheinz72]

Frankly, it's the run that is the only sliver of thing that has my worried about my vote. It's not the case against hoops at all, just watching 4 people zap him in like 10 minutes was...new.

[The Jackal]

The run on hoops was very peculiar.

[claphamsa]

We need 7 to execute someone? or 8?


8

[hoopsguy]

For those who played this ruleset before, was it apparent that spawnyness was randomized? Or was it more slotted (say an officer an engineer and a private or some such)?

Just seems whack that it could be completely random, I mean what if it was the Captain, the Doctor and the Chief Engineer. That'd seem like an unwinnable start for the survivors.

I believe it was mostly random. BK wouldn't allow a starting set of conditions that were ridiculous. It is why a number of us give the Captain and the Doc a little slack initially. No in-game reason to do so, but meta-game makes us (well, me at least) that there is a better than average chance they started good.

[Alan T]

Hoopsguy, I didn't see any answers regarding my comments about why your Danny being scanned plan was not only bad but negative gain for the good guys... I also didn't see any replies to why you didn't vote for Telle whom by your percentages has a higher chance of being bad than Render right now?

[jeheinz72]

path, KWhit, Danny and PB.

Those are the runners.

I ain't votin path
I ain't votin KWhit
I ain't votin the two engineers, at least today.

So it's disconcerting that the run happened, as far as acting on it today, it's a no-go for me. If hoops is lynched and turns up good, then I'll worry.

[Alan T]

I also missed it.. did Passacaglia submit his daytime order to put people in the brig for tonight? I never saw an announcement or anything...

[hoopsguy]

Here is what I show for the vote (as of post #1526):
PackerFanatic (6) - (1090), Tyrith (1129), saldana (1136), Marc Vaughan (1153), The Jackal (1201), Olie (1410), HOops (1514)
hoopsguy (6) - jeheniz72 (1219), path (1414), KWhit (1431), Danny (1434), Purdue (1444), Schmidty (1505)
saldana (2) - mccollins (1226), PackerFanatic (1358)
jeheniz72 (1) - claphamsa (805)
claphamsa (1) - Telle (1028)

No lynch (3) - Mrs. Schmidty (957), Passacaglia (1206), bulletsponge (1277)

No votes:
Alan T
Render
Telle
LoneStarGirl
Chubby

[hoopsguy]

Hoopsguy, I didn't see any answers regarding my comments about why your Danny being scanned plan was not only bad but negative gain for the good guys... I also didn't see any replies to why you didn't vote for Telle whom by your percentages has a higher chance of being bad than Render right now?

I'll go dig up old posts that cover this ground now.

[Alan T]

path, KWhit, Danny and PB.

Those are the runners.

I ain't votin path
I ain't votin KWhit
I ain't votin the two engineers, at least today.

So it's disconcerting that the run happened, as far as acting on it today, it's a no-go for me. If hoops is lynched and turns up good, then I'll worry.

I still think I'm pushing for a no lynch right now.. if we end up with it looking like someone is going to be lynched, I'll have to decide whom to vote for.. the person I trust the least right now but has a semi-needed role.. or the person whom I have no feel for either way but has a lesser important role (at least currently)

I still think I'd prefer no lynch

[jeheinz72]

The Render over Telle logic struck me as odd as well.
I realize you had some nod on RendeR Day one hoops, but seeing what it is, and weighing that against Telle's dual missions makes me wonder if that's the best pick.

[Danny]

I was considering a vote for Hoops before Path voted because he kept pushing that either jeheinz or I had to be lynched despite me trying to make it clear than I wasn't by any means saying jeheinz was bad. I also wanted to see someone else with Packerfanatic getting votes and jumping in on a run on the person I felt the worst about was an easy decision.

[Alan T]

I'll go dig up old posts that cover this ground now.


I'll go back and read them then.. I have 7 minutes to get a plan in my head.. so I have to read fast. I covered alot of pages pretty quick with less depth than I normally would.

[hoopsguy]

Personally, I'm already granting you implicit trust - you are going to get scanned if you stay alive in this game. Whether that is tomorrow or the day after, it doesn't make a ton of difference for me as I'm trying to figure out the right move on D2. Consider "Path's Scans = Trusted" to be a moderate assumption on my part up to this point.

I want to make the right move TODAY. That is my priority at the moment, and that is why I've proposed the idea of scanning Danny today. There are a few outcomes:
1.) Danny is spawnling = cured, duplicant lives as well. Not necessarily the case if/when you scan him later in game (very good)
2.) Danny is good, we have strong reason to believe him being Spawn Aware, path leads to Heinz and we lynch a Spawn (mostly good, bad result for repairs right now)
3.) Danny is good, we have strong reason to believe him being Spawn Aware, but are wrong on Heinz (very bad)
4.) Danny is a Spawn, making a move I don't understand (playing off of Alan?) - we get a Spawn, maybe in a 1:1 trade, that doesn't involve our everyday medic (very good)

This is my most complete explanation of the Danny scan idea.

[path12]

What are we at, 7-6 hoops?

You're on after work hours??? Man, this MUST be a good game.

[RendeR]

So why did I, as a spawn, attempt to save PackerFanatic? Push away from No Vote? How would that be "good play"?

At least give me credit for making good plays the majority of the time, even if you think I'm full of crap today.


I give you a massive amount of credit. I credit you with knowing precisely how to tell people you're going to shit down their throat and convincing them its the best thing that could ever happen to them and have them thank you for it afterward ;)

The only thing I know you did was turn on the Officers, namely Telle and I, for no reason other than a gut feeling or assumption. I don't like the timing of it, I don't like the fact that you ginore Telle, who has a far stronger chance of having been converted due to being outside twice, in order to push a vote for me.

Its the lack of logic in your decisions that puzzle me most. What is your reasoning for NOT voting packer? an understood expendible position?

You're simply being too vague to be trusted right now. The move to get danny scanned instead of Alan really bothers me. I'm not seeing any explanations for your actions.

[The Jackal]

I'm not sure if this is what is motivating people, but here's what I'm thinking.

If we're going off the theory that its very likely one of the officers is spawn, which I tend to think is true, I understand votes on hoopsguy. But he's not an especially strong candidate, wouldn't it be more prudent to lose a less important role at this stage of the game? Instead of weeding out officers by killing them, we can weed them out through scans.

I guess the only hanging thread there is if we trust that path isnt spawn, which I do at this point.

just some observations

[hoopsguy]

Render - initial tweak of suspicion from me with his "throw out a vote and we'll follow" post yesterday, although I didn't comment on it (publicly) at the time. I'll dig up post # if people need to see it. I'm certainly not the only guy who gets bad vibes from those kinds of posts.

Today - we now have two members of the officers cleared by the seer. Regardless of Path's faction, he probably isn't giving fake clears yet (would he?). I know my allegiance, so that leaves RendeR + Telle.

I'm going with my gut on RendeR over the odds on Telle (2 away missions). Her "very successful" initial mission could have been just a good random.org result, but it sounds like today was a good one as well. That is enough to temper my worries about her to a level below RendeR, although I'll likely return to her tomorrow if we lynch RendeR and find him good.

And there is my reasoning for RendeR vs Telle.

[jeheinz72]

How detrimental is it, in general, for a Spawn to have an officers' role?

I look at what the officers have done so far, and it's basically out in the open (frankly, except for hoops' role) I guess what I'm asking is, is it necessarily worse that a spawn is an officer over say an engineer or security, where they can fake work more easily?

[RendeR]

This is my most complete explanation of the Danny scan idea.


The whole point of scaning path is to VERIFY that he is good and that our current CoT is valid, scanning danny does nothing for that. its counter-productive.

[jeheinz72]

You're on after work hours??? Man, this MUST be a good game.

Ha, yes, luckily it was a good game during the time when the wife and kiddos are away.

[path12]

For those who played this ruleset before, was it apparent that spawnyness was randomized? Or was it more slotted (say an officer an engineer and a private or some such)?

Just seems whack that it could be completely random, I mean what if it was the Captain, the Doctor and the Chief Engineer. That'd seem like an unwinnable start for the survivors.

My feeling is that you would need the Doctor and Captain to start good and the rest be random to avoid putting the survivors in too deep a hole at the start. But of course being the Doctor I could be biased. :)

[Alan T]

This is my most complete explanation of the Danny scan idea.


I think you are making way too many assumptions on Danny's comments. I already gave my reasoning why I feel that way.. I am basing it on the idea that either: Danny is bad and copied my comments on the PM from in the thread, or Danny is good which means his PM might have been similar to mine to which I have to believe he is just as confused about what it means as I am.

I just find much more value in a CoT being solidified.. yes I am working on the same assumption about Path starting good as you mentioned for metagame reasons.. but I learned one thing about spawn games.. if you make assumptions, you lose

[hoopsguy]

I would be just fine with a Telle lynch as well. Again, I think the math suggests that there is a 75% likelihood that one of them is a starting spawn. Those numbers go up even higher given Telle's two missions outside.

I'm going gut on RendeR vs Telle - gut that could be wrong. Gut that could not matter as they both may be Spawn. But if you go only with the math, then Telle is the right choice.

[jeheinz72]

I have to say that even though a scan of Danny can clear me (or, also, appear to condemn me) it's much more vital to scan path.

If we even have a duplicant? Are you out there duplicant? Let's get crackin' on scanning path, mmmmmm K?

I get the logic of training a new doc later to do it, but let's not put off until tomorrow what we can do today. It's a 1-use thing right? Potentially held by someone who any day can become Spawn? Yeah, let's knock it out. If something else needs an ability later, we can train that just as well.

[hoopsguy]

How detrimental is it, in general, for a Spawn to have an officers' role?

I look at what the officers have done so far, and it's basically out in the open (frankly, except for hoops' role) I guess what I'm asking is, is it necessarily worse that a spawn is an officer over say an engineer or security, where they can fake work more easily?

What have I done all game, short of revealing a private role, that hasn't been out in the open?

[Barkeep49]

I also missed it.. did Passacaglia submit his daytime order to put people in the brig for tonight? I never saw an announcement or anything...
Coming up shortly.

[path12]

I also missed it.. did Passacaglia submit his daytime order to put people in the brig for tonight? I never saw an announcement or anything...

I didn't either.

[hoopsguy]

The whole point of scaning path is to VERIFY that he is good and that our current CoT is valid, scanning danny does nothing for that. its counter-productive.

My point was to have a good vote today. We've discussed, fairly extensively, why the scans Path has given are almost certainly good regardless of his faction right now.

I understand the COT concept pretty well. I'm fine with adding any 3rd person to it - in my mind Path does not have to be the 3rd member added. I agree we want to get a scan on him at some point, but there are multilpe routes to this path; the duplicant is not the sole means to scan Path, just the quickest.

[Barkeep49]

"If your name is Alan T, path, or KWhit please report to the brig tonight. That is Alan T, path, and KWhit to the brig," Pass announces.

[path12]

I still think I'm pushing for a no lynch right now.. if we end up with it looking like someone is going to be lynched, I'll have to decide whom to vote for.. the person I trust the least right now but has a semi-needed role.. or the person whom I have no feel for either way but has a lesser important role (at least currently)

I still think I'd prefer no lynch

If you as the captain would prefer a no lynch, I'll change my vote and scan hoops tomorrow. I don't mean to sound wishy washy with that statement, but you are cleared in my book and role-play wise your wishes will carry weight with me.

[hoopsguy]

I think you are making way too many assumptions on Danny's comments. I already gave my reasoning why I feel that way.. I am basing it on the idea that either: Danny is bad and copied my comments on the PM from in the thread, or Danny is good which means his PM might have been similar to mine to which I have to believe he is just as confused about what it means as I am.

I just find much more value in a CoT being solidified.. yes I am working on the same assumption about Path starting good as you mentioned for metagame reasons.. but I learned one thing about spawn games.. if you make assumptions, you lose

Maybe I am - but scanning Path as good (80%+ likelihood? based on starting odds, plus meta-game thought process) doesn't really help with the vote today. I want to make good decisions every day, and I felt like we weren't in position to make a good one today. So I floated an idea that I thought could provide more (not complete) clarity. It was up to the duplicant to listen or disregard - I certainly wasn't issuing an order for him to do it.

I would argue that playing a conventional WW game in an unconventional ruleset is a little closed minded and doesn't necessarily provide the best path to victory.

[Alan T]

Just stating for the record, I have to submit a duke order by 9:30... i had a conditional one typed out and erased it, then retyped it at least 4 or 5 times. I had it conditional based on if there is no lynch, I wanted to keep it no lynch. If there was a lynch, then to duke Hoopsguy...

I decided at the end to not duke anyone.. only because I'm going to try to not run on gut feelings this game a bit more.. instead I'll try to once again convince people to no lynch again today. If you are suspicious of people, we have a bazillion people who can spy on them, we have path who can scan them.. we may or may not have an empath in this game, we can make more doctors, we have evidentally several spawn aware people...

we WILL have time to hunt down the spawns.. for now we need to get off this planet.. We don't get off the planet by killing crew, we get off the planet by completing our tasks.. While we have spawn around they may sabotage things but they also likely are going to help our mission out to some extent to blend in..

The bottom line is in normal WW games the lynch ratio for wolves is far below 40% accuracy.. We can't survive with that ratio in this game.. I really want to leave this planet and then no holds barred..

In my mind, our priorities right now are:

1) Getting off this planet
2) Finding out the spawns..

I want to no lynch as it helps us reach #1 first.

[PurdueBrad]

I'll "defend" my place in the run before I run yet again.

We had a softball double-header that (since I'm home early enough to take my wife out to a late dinner either went very well or very poorly...it's the latter) and I had to get a vote in or stay on no lynch which I'm starting to see as a place for Spawns to hide. Out of everyone in the game, Hoops (and part of this is just how I am whenever I play against him) pinged me some: pushing for an engineer, pushing for an officer, and some of the number's discussion. And yeah then, part of my vote is personal, he's burned me before and he was pushing for an engineer to get voted off when we really, really need them. Anyway, I had to get a vote in and didn't want to vote into the run but basically had to. I'm here for about ten minutes now and am out again but I haven't seen reason to move back to no lynch or really on to anyone else. But sure, my vote placement puts me in the run so it should be looked at.

Out for dinner, will be back.

[mccollins]

Catching up now (starting on page 26...). I'll go ahead and do what I said - sounds like on this page 32 there's still sentiment for no lynch which is what I felt comfortable with anyways.

Unvote Saldana
Vote No Lynch

[Alan T]

My point was to have a good vote today. We've discussed, fairly extensively, why the scans Path has given are almost certainly good regardless of his faction right now.

I understand the COT concept pretty well. I'm fine with adding any 3rd person to it - in my mind Path does not have to be the 3rd member added. I agree we want to get a scan on him at some point, but there are multilpe routes to this path; the duplicant is not the sole means to scan Path, just the quickest.

The problem is that Path is locked up with our CoT every night.. I am pretty sure we know what happened in the last game when our CoT was locked up with a spawn who everyone trusted based on an ASSUMPTION...

We really need to be lock solid this game if possible on things.. there are way too many conversion possibilities to assume things.

[RendeR]

If you as the captain would prefer a no lynch, I'll change my vote and scan hoops tomorrow. I don't mean to sound wishy washy with that statement, but you are cleared in my book and role-play wise your wishes will carry weight with me.


"Ahem, yes Cap', Doc is right on that. I'm with you. If you think we ought to keep everyone alive then that's what I'll do."

*Salutes*

[saldana]

Add to it that you can scan me tomorrow. Me being lynched is not a good villager result.

normally, this would be enough to get me to stay off of a vote for hoops, but in this game, wouldnt a spawn want to get scanned...there are plenty of conversion opportunities, and getting scanned if you are a spawn kills the doctor....anyone that is actively asking to be scanned worries me a bit because of the ruleset.

[The Jackal]

I'm fine with that.

unvote PF

vote no execution

[RendeR]

BK how long does it take to train a medic to be a doctor and is it instantaneous?

[Alan T]

Maybe I am - but scanning Path as good (80%+ likelihood? based on starting odds, plus meta-game thought process) doesn't really help with the vote today. I want to make good decisions every day, and I felt like we weren't in position to make a good one today. So I floated an idea that I thought could provide more (not complete) clarity. It was up to the duplicant to listen or disregard - I certainly wasn't issuing an order for him to do it.

I would argue that playing a conventional WW game in an unconventional ruleset is a little closed minded and doesn't necessarily provide the best path to victory.


I am not sure that you could exactly call my play this game as conventional WW play.. I think the unconventional play today for an unconventional rule set is the no lynch :)

[jeheinz72]

What have I done all game, short of revealing a private role, that hasn't been out in the open?

Well, like chatting with Path and don't you get to tell Security people in private who to protect (I could be wrong on that)?

I"m not saying you've been shady about your manuevers, but more pointing out that having a Spawn in an Officer position doesn't seem as advantageous as one would think, unless I"m missing something here (Captain would be an exception though, due to override powers)

[Barkeep49]

BK how long does it take to train a medic to be a doctor and is it instantaneous?
The soonest you could have a doctor would be the start of Day 4.

[LoneStarGirl]

Here is what I show for the vote (as of post #1526):
PackerFanatic (6) - (1090), Tyrith (1129), saldana (1136), Marc Vaughan (1153), The Jackal (1201), Olie (1410), HOops (1514)
hoopsguy (6) - jeheniz72 (1219), path (1414), KWhit (1431), Danny (1434), Purdue (1444), Schmidty (1505)
saldana (2) - mccollins (1226), PackerFanatic (1358)
jeheniz72 (1) - claphamsa (805)
claphamsa (1) - Telle (1028)

No lynch (3) - Mrs. Schmidty (957), Passacaglia (1206), bulletsponge (1277)

No votes:
Alan T
Render
Telle
LoneStarGirl
Chubby


You have Telle voting Claps AND having a no vote here

I definitly do not want a no lynch but I am having a hard time on PF VS Hoops... PF is a fellow scientist and i dont want to be alone, and I acn't go on every mission or i will be exhausted... so PF should not be lynched until we have another scientist trained.

Hoops had an officially suspicious run on him late... so i dont want to jump on that bandwagon, but I believe we NEED a lynch. I never played Spawn before, or no anything about Spawn, so i dont know if Alant is correct in saying a no lynch is best, but generally i like to go against everything he says anyway... :D

[hoopsguy]

The problem is that Path is locked up with our CoT every night.. I am pretty sure we know what happened in the last game when our CoT was locked up with a spawn who everyone trusted based on an ASSUMPTION...

We really need to be lock solid this game if possible on things.. there are way too many conversion possibilities to assume things.

The people who are cleared now step to the head of the class as conversion targets later in the game. I'm not trying to destroy a COT with that statement, just pointing out a pretty standard WW fact.

You are emphasizing the word assumption around the COT, but I'm not the one who is assuming that a clearance of Path today (over Player X) gives us a significantly greater COT later in the game.

Also, if anyone is paying attention Danny has slid rapidly down my COT over the course of the afternoon. I'm now in a position where I put him right with Heinz on the distrust list. So if I do end up dead and someone wants to revive my trust/distrust list, please factor that in. K, thx.

[Alan T]

Well, like chatting with Path and don't you get to tell Security people in private who to protect (I could be wrong on that)?

I"m not saying you've been shady about your manuevers, but more pointing out that having a Spawn in an Officer position doesn't seem as advantageous as one would think, unless I"m missing something here (Captain would be an exception though, due to override powers)


Actually a spawn in an officer position we learned once upon a time can be bad.. As a head of security, you have an excuse to be out and about every night plus you have a gun.. As second officer, you can promote the wrong people into positions , as the first officer you are a bit more limited mainly to being able to force people to do things they don't want, but you have the only ability to get rid of the captain in the game.. and a spawn captain is really bad.

[claphamsa]

votes not on hoops or PF mean nothign...... its eiather we hit 8 or not! so unless you are voting for one of them oh well!

[RendeR]

The soonest you could have a doctor would be the start of Day 4.


ok so basically we wouldn't be losing anything if we let path scan hoops tonmorrow. if hoops IS a spawn we lose both guys and train a medic to be our Doc on day 4. no lost time and 1 spawn down. Thats acceptable to me.

Alan, do you still want a No Execution?

[path12]

This is my most complete explanation of the Danny scan idea.

This is why I voted for you BTW, not the 3 or 4 starting spawn thing. It still bugs me. It is a gigantic leap of faith to take Danny's statement, my looking of the rules and posting Spawn Aware and whatever the other one I quoted was, and instantly coming up with the idea that it is more crucial to have him scanned than verifying the only person thus far that is telling you whether somebody is good or not -- regardless of your personal feelings about my telling the truth, my scans will not be 100% believable and there are those who can use that fact to spread uncertainty to disrupt the forming of a CoT until I'm proven to be human.

It's just too large a leap and just too blatantly anti-survivor to me to avoid voting for at this point. I don't know if I stated my reasoning as clearly before but wanted to clarify my views for the record.

[RendeR]

You have Telle voting Claps AND having a no vote here

I definitly do not want a no lynch but I am having a hard time on PF VS Hoops... PF is a fellow scientist and i dont want to be alone, and I acn't go on every mission or i will be exhausted... so PF should not be lynched until we have another scientist trained.

Hoops had an officially suspicious run on him late... so i dont want to jump on that bandwagon, but I believe we NEED a lynch. I never played Spawn before, or no anything about Spawn, so i dont know if Alant is correct in saying a no lynch is best, but generally i like to go against everything he says anyway... :D


Why would you be exhausted, there is nothing for you to do at night but sleep.

[jeheinz72]

saldana makes a good point about the people asking to be scanned (I think Danny did as well, I forget if I actually did or not)

If a Spawn staves off a lynch using that, and then takes out a semi-COT'd Doctor with him, that's a huge coup for that Spawn.

[Alan T]

The people who are cleared now step to the head of the class as conversion targets later in the game. I'm not trying to destroy a COT with that statement, just pointing out a pretty standard WW fact.

You are emphasizing the word assumption around the COT, but I'm not the one who is assuming that a clearance of Path today (over Player X) gives us a significantly greater COT later in the game.

Also, if anyone is paying attention Danny has slid rapidly down my COT over the course of the afternoon. I'm now in a position where I put him right with Heinz on the distrust list. So if I do end up dead and someone wants to revive my trust/distrust list, please factor that in. K, thx.


I just doublechecked the ruleset and didn't see anything but correct me if I am wrong.. I don't see any way for people to be converted during the day.. so if the CoT is locked in the brig and you absolutely know everyone in there is good and no one else can get in or out.. and those people don't leave the ship on away missions... well I feel pretty good about it..

But add just 1 person you aren't sure is cleared in there, and then yes you can't be sure any of them are clear.

[hoopsguy]

Well, like chatting with Path and don't you get to tell Security people in private who to protect (I could be wrong on that)?

I"m not saying you've been shady about your manuevers, but more pointing out that having a Spawn in an Officer position doesn't seem as advantageous as one would think, unless I"m missing something here (Captain would be an exception though, due to override powers)

Path is free to mention anything I've said in our chats. Given that he has his vote on me, I dont' believe that he is all that concerned with protecting confidences even if I have held back on mentioning what he may (or may not) have said.

I have no secret power of communication with the officers. Everything has been out in the open in the thread. I would argue, based on my post count and the positions that I have taken, that I've been as forthright as anyone in the game.

[saldana]

if we are worried about Hoops as a spawn, why not have the duplicant scan Hoops...i realize that takes away our scan of path, but if hoops is a spawn, it doesnt cost us path.

[jeheinz72]

Actually a spawn in an officer position we learned once upon a time can be bad.. As a head of security, you have an excuse to be out and about every night plus you have a gun.. As second officer, you can promote the wrong people into positions , as the first officer you are a bit more limited mainly to being able to force people to do things they don't want, but you have the only ability to get rid of the captain in the game.. and a spawn captain is really bad.

Thanks Alan, there are some scenarios there I hadn't thought of.

[Alan T]

ok so basically we wouldn't be losing anything if we let path scan hoops tonmorrow. if hoops IS a spawn we lose both guys and train a medic to be our Doc on day 4. no lost time and 1 spawn down. Thats acceptable to me.

Alan, do you still want a No Execution?


Yeah, I'm not telling anyone else how to vote, and by me deciding to not duke it, that means I respect everyone's right to make their decisions on this..


I absolutely think no execution is a good move here, but I feel you all have to feel free to make your choices on this subject.

[saldana]

ok so basically we wouldn't be losing anything if we let path scan hoops tonmorrow. if hoops IS a spawn we lose both guys and train a medic to be our Doc on day 4. no lost time and 1 spawn down. Thats acceptable to me.

Alan, do you still want a No Execution?

except that the medic could already be a spawn

[jeheinz72]

votes not on hoops or PF mean nothign...... its eiather we hit 8 or not! so unless you are voting for one of them oh well!

Says the guy with his vote not on one of them.

[hoopsguy]

saldana makes a good point about the people asking to be scanned (I think Danny did as well, I forget if I actually did or not)

If a Spawn staves off a lynch using that, and then takes out a semi-COT'd Doctor with him, that's a huge coup for that Spawn.

In a game where the villagers outnumber the wolves, it should be the goal of the seer to get a 1:1 trade, especially when he has been revealing his scans all the way along.

You are once again backsliding further down the trust list with continued bad arguments.

[Alan T]

saldana makes a good point about the people asking to be scanned (I think Danny did as well, I forget if I actually did or not)

If a Spawn staves off a lynch using that, and then takes out a semi-COT'd Doctor with him, that's a huge coup for that Spawn.


Just to be devil's advocate.. I asked to be scan this morning.

[Alan T]

Just to make it official..

Vote No execution

[jeheinz72]

Anyone got a count?

[hoopsguy]

Just out of curiosity, do people want me to reveal my private role if we hit deadline and I'm in position to be sniped?

[LoneStarGirl]

It looks like no matter where i vote it wont create a lynch

[oliegirl]

My problem with the no execution votes at this point is that for every one that is cast, it means the number of votes needed to execute someone is less...my interpretation of what BK explained earlier was that if we have 21 players, and 9 no execution votes, it means that only 5 votes (1/3 +1 ) are needed to execute someone. No execution having more votes that anyone else doesn't mean no one is going to be executed...

BK, please correct me if I'm wrong here.

[claphamsa]

Says the guy with his vote not on one of them.
yeah, ive got a couple people i could get behind, for various reasons.... but neither is named hoops or PF. so why bother changing!

[jeheinz72]

In a game where the villagers outnumber the wolves, it should be the goal of the seer to get a 1:1 trade, especially when he has been revealing his scans all the way along.

You are once again backsliding further down the trust list with continued bad arguments.

I agree, in general. What I"m saying is the combination of using that statement to avoid going from a scenario where that Spawn gets lynched to one where he stems the flow of new COT members is good for the spawn.

I never said the 1:1 trade is necessarily bad for the Seer. That's why the mechinic in there right?

[hoopsguy]

This is what I show, as of Post #1585:

hoopsguy (6) - jeheniz72 (1219), path (1414), KWhit (1431), Danny (1434), Purdue (1444), Schmidty (1505)
PackerFanatic (5) - Tyrith (1129), saldana (1136), Marc Vaughan (1153), Olie (1410), Hoops (1514)
saldana (1) - PackerFanatic (1358)
jeheniz72 (1) - claphamsa (805)
claphamsa (1) - Telle (1028)

No lynch (6) - Mrs. Schmidty (957), Passacaglia (1206), bulletsponge (1277), mccollins (1557), Jackal (1561), Alan (1583)

No votes:
Render
LoneStarGirl
Chubby

[RendeR]

Vote No Execution.

I don't trust hoops, and I don't believe PF is a spawn at this point. Better we all live another day than waste a body we still need to get this hulk back into the sky.

[path12]

normally, this would be enough to get me to stay off of a vote for hoops, but in this game, wouldnt a spawn want to get scanned...there are plenty of conversion opportunities, and getting scanned if you are a spawn kills the doctor....anyone that is actively asking to be scanned worries me a bit because of the ruleset.

Me too!

[claphamsa]

yeah, ive got a couple people i could get behind, for various reasons.... but neither is named hoops or PF. so why bother changing!
was just califry for people who are voting no lycnh, or unvoting someone for a no lynch thats all :)

[RendeR]

My problem with the no execution votes at this point is that for every one that is cast, it means the number of votes needed to execute someone is less...my interpretation of what BK explained earlier was that if we have 21 players, and 9 no execution votes, it means that only 5 votes (1/3 +1 ) are needed to execute someone. No execution having more votes that anyone else doesn't mean no one is going to be executed...

BK, please correct me if I'm wrong here.


You're wrong, there mus be a 1/3 total vote to execute someone. Either guy needs 8 to get killed, nothing less will work.

[Alan T]

My problem with the no execution votes at this point is that for every one that is cast, it means the number of votes needed to execute someone is less...my interpretation of what BK explained earlier was that if we have 21 players, and 9 no execution votes, it means that only 5 votes (1/3 +1 ) are needed to execute someone. No execution having more votes that anyone else doesn't mean no one is going to be executed...

BK, please correct me if I'm wrong here.


I might be wrong, but I understood it differently.. I thought he said 1/3+1 of the active players in the game to force a lynch.. No execution votes being higher than the lynch vote doesn't matter in stopping the lynch if the leading lynch vote getter receives enough votes (1/3+1) to force the lynch..
BK simply asked if people don't want to vote for a lynch, that we say so with vote no execution in the thread is all

[path12]

And in regard to Alan's earlier post (I better hurry up to make sure he didn't change his mind) :

UNVOTE HOOPSGUY
VOTE NO LYNCH

[Barkeep49]

My problem with the no execution votes at this point is that for every one that is cast, it means the number of votes needed to execute someone is less...my interpretation of what BK explained earlier was that if we have 21 players, and 9 no execution votes, it means that only 5 votes (1/3 +1 ) are needed to execute someone. No execution having more votes that anyone else doesn't mean no one is going to be executed...

BK, please correct me if I'm wrong here.
You're wrong. 8 votes are needed to lynch. My example earlier pointed out that No excution could have "won" but if someone hast at least 8 votes they still get the ax.

[LoneStarGirl]

vote no execution

this is very frustrating

[claphamsa]

I might be wrong, but I understood it differently.. I thought he said 1/3+1 of the active players in the game to force a lynch.. No execution votes being higher than the lynch vote doesn't matter in stopping the lynch if the leading lynch vote getter receives enough votes (1/3+1) to force the lynch..
BK simply asked if people don't want to vote for a lynch, that we say so with vote no execution in the thread is all
im pretty sure its first to 8 wins :)

or if more than on get there than the one with the most.

[RendeR]

Its an ungodly ruleset BK, but I'll be damned if I'm not getting into things.

Ok I'm out till later on, gotta close up shop.

[hoopsguy]

vote no execution

this is very frustrating

I agree with this, actually. I'm not looking to die as a villager, but I agree that the voting philosophy is driving me pretty nuts.

Now, would I really post this as a wolf? Just checking how nuts people think I am?

[Danny]

I'm willing to vote no lynch as well, debating to do this or not.

[Barkeep49]

Crap. I worked up all the changes from today's actions and saved the file, which I forgot to then email myself at home.

[Alan T]

I guess my idea of how the doctor should play while on the planet is different than a normal seer in WW games.. it sounds like Path also has the same viewpoint, but alot of other people don't...

My thought is we want to try to get off this planet by day 4-5.. In the meantime, Path doesn't necessarily want to find spawns, he wants to clear important members whom he thinks are not spawns.. and put them in the one place that they can't be harmed or converted..

Once we fill up the brig with path + 3 others, we hopefully have everything ready to take off (or will soon).. and once in space, the doctor(s) shift gear trying to isolate the spawns from the remainder of the non-cleared people. At that point if he finds a spawn, we take the 1 for 1 and move on.. but until we get into the air, I think clearing people is just as important.

Once in space I believe conversions cant happen anymore (or maybe that was last game and not this one.. or maybe I just imagined that all together.. I should re-read the rules on that to make sure)

[oliegirl]

You're wrong. 8 votes are needed to lynch. My example earlier pointed out that No excution could have "won" but if someone hast at least 8 votes they still get the ax.

Ahhhh, got it. Thanks for the explanation.

[hoopsguy]

Danny, if you do be prepared for some serious discussion tomorrow. You are the guy that I'm going to be doing some post "dumpster diving" on tonight.

[path12]

Just to be devil's advocate.. I asked to be scan this morning.

For the record, I was nervous about that.

[saldana]

In a game where the villagers outnumber the wolves, it should be the goal of the seer to get a 1:1 trade, especially when he has been revealing his scans all the way along.

You are once again backsliding further down the trust list with continued bad arguments.

but this isnt a normal werewolf game...the doctor is the center of the COT...if we change that center, we lose the entire circle from that point forward...if we lose Path, we promote the medic, who we cannot necessarily trust.

[jeheinz72]

Alan and the rest be danged, I"m staying where I am, even if it doesn't look like I'll get an answer on if I'm right any time soon.

[LoneStarGirl]

I agree with this, actually. I'm not looking to die as a villager, but I agree that the voting philosophy is driving me pretty nuts.

Now, would I really post this as a wolf? Just checking how nuts people think I am?

People ALWAYS think you are nuts, which is why you are an easy lynch target early in the game, same goes for Lathum

[Danny]

Danny, if you do be prepared for some serious discussion tomorrow. You are the guy that I'm going to be doing some post "dumpster diving" on tonight.

Feel free, I'm going to do what I think is best whether it places heat on me or not.

[LoneStarGirl]

Do all the orders about fixing parts of the ship have to be in by now? I wish i could help

[hoopsguy]

but this isnt a normal werewolf game...the doctor is the center of the COT...if we change that center, we lose the entire circle from that point forward...if we lose Path, we promote the medic, who we cannot necessarily trust.

In past games, that is why we've had the doctor scan the medic.

We still have the duplicant as a scanning option, since that wasn't burned today.

And if you have the seer cleared upon death, then everything he scanned up to that point is trusted (greater trust on more recent scans, due to conversion concerns, mitigated by protection schemes, yada, yada, yada).

The act of clearing Path actually gives the wolves more incentive to come after him, if you want to invert your logic. I don't 100% believe this argument, but I think the optimal seer strategy is a more complex topic than your quoted post.

[Danny]

I will ask again for Jeheinz and I, will a security guard please guard the cargo hold. I haven't seen any confirmations about this or not.

[hoopsguy]

People ALWAYS think you are nuts, which is why you are an easy lynch target early in the game, same goes for Lathum

I've only been lynched as a villager once - I don't think I'm that easy a get, even if I'm an easy initial vote.

[hoopsguy]

I will ask again for Jeheinz and I, will a security guard please guard the cargo hold. I haven't seen any confirmations about this or not.

I'm not all that inclined to post publicly on night security actions, as that provides a Spawn roadmap.

If we don't talk about it in the thread, there is a chance we'll double-guard. But I think the odds are pretty slim that you won't find anyone there.

[LoneStarGirl]

I've only been lynched as a villager once - I don't think I'm that easy a get, even if I'm an easy initial vote.

Really? I will definitly keep that in mind for our future games

[Danny]

It's deadline now, no lynch for another day. I'm glad we had a vote that went to the end though, could at least tell us something later.

[jeheinz72]

Yeah, ditto Danny's post. Our work is potentially meaningless if it isn't. Also, if someone guards the cargo hold does that protect Danny and I inherently?

[saldana]

I've only been lynched as a villager once - I don't think I'm that easy a get, even if I'm an easy initial vote.

are you serious....once...i lost track around 20

[Barkeep49]

Deadline has passed

[Alan T]

Barkeep.. kind of important to know but I can't find it in the rules anywhere so not sure if I am thinking of a past spawn game or this one...

Once we lift up from the planet, current spawnlings will continue to form into spawns, but no more spawnlings can be planted to convert anyone right?

[Alan T]

Yeah, ditto Danny's post. Our work is potentially meaningless if it isn't. Also, if someone guards the cargo hold does that protect Danny and I inherently?

guarding the cargo hold protects it from any damage. It does not protect anyone in the hold from being attacked. They have to specifically guard you as a person for that to occur

[mccollins]

Why would you be exhausted, there is nothing for you to do at night but sleep.

Not enough beds to sleep!

[hoopsguy]

are you serious....once...i lost track around 20

Yep, and I was pretty bitter when the streak ended. Both that it ended somewhere around 20-25 games and the way it went down. Just a weak, weak vote (obvious personal bias showing).

[claphamsa]

Not enough beds to sleep!

watch pron?

[jeheinz72]

guarding the cargo hold protects it from any damage. It does not protect anyone in the hold from being attacked. They have to specifically guard you as a person for that to occur

That's disconcerting because if Danny is spawn (and admittedly, same logic applies to me) he can just not work and attack me and nothing gets done, right?

[Danny]

Yep, and I was pretty bitter when the streak ended. Both that it ended somewhere around 20-25 games and the way it went down. Just a weak, weak vote (obvious personal bias showing).

So since you've only been lynched as a villager once out of 30+ games than if we lynch you, the chance of you being a villager is only about 3% ;)

[Barkeep49]

If you had thought about what needed to happen on Day 2 when the crew landed yesterday, this day would not have been it. The ship is still damaged, somewhat severely & little Crystilium has been found. Yet, based on what has happened? It felt like a good day. Perhaps you're no closer to finding a Spawn, but after the destruction of the slave riot, made only slightly worse today before they could be rounded back up, and the decision that every person is needed to help at this point, you're feeling pretty good about things.
Room Reports
Engine Room – Damaged 9 man cycles to repair
Water Plant – Damaged (Non Operational) 6 cycles to repair
Cargo Hold - Damaged 4 man cycles to repair (Maximum Capacity: 125 units)
Water Supply – 87 units (Enough reserves for a little less than 4 days at current consumption)
Crystilium Supply – 16 units (at least 75 required)
Security Headquarters Operational (Undamaged)
Brig – path12, Alan T, KWhit
Weapons Locker – 3 unspent phasers (2 spent)
Slave Pens – Operational (Undamaged)
Sleeping Quarters – Damaged. 18 berths requiring repair (enough berths for 5 people to sleep)

The Crew

Command Staff
Captain - Alan T
First Officer – Kwhit Wounded
Second Officer - Render Exhuasted
Security Chief - Hoopsguy Exhuasted
Ensign - Telle

Chief Engineer - Tyrith Exhuasted

Engineers
PurdueBrad Exhuasted
Danny Exhuasted
JeHeinz72 Exhuasted
Claphamsa


Trainer - mccollins

Medical Staff
Doctor - path12 Wounded
Medic - The Jackal Wounded
Medic - bulletsponge Exhuasted

Security Staff
Sergeant at Arms - oliegirl Exhuasted
Warden - Passacagalia Exhuasted
Galley Master - Schmidty Exhuasted
Slavemaster - Saldana
Security Crewman - Mrs. Schmidty Exhuasted

Scientists

LoneStarGirl
PackerFanatic Wounded & Exhuasted

Privates

Marc Vaughn
Chubby Wounded


Slaves
17 slaves accounted
3 slaves dead

[jeheinz72]

Of course he'd essentially out himself as Spawn should that happen, but if it means we all die of thirst then who cares for the Spawns right?

[hoopsguy]

So since you've only been lynched as a villager once out of 30+ games than if we lynch you, the chance of you being a villager is only about 3% ;)

Some people shouldn't be allowed to do math in these threads :)

[Alan T]

Looks like we need Tyrith and Purduebrad to help in the cargo hold too. Probably should have all of our engineers help there tonight...

[claphamsa]

this is wierd, since we dont learn from night kills.... there are just more spawn :(

[jeheinz72]

Crap, looks like we'll need more manpower (all engineers to be safe?) at the cargo hold

[hoopsguy]

Of course he'd essentially out himself as Spawn should that happen, but if it means we all die of thirst then who cares for the Spawns right?

We would all be thirsty (dehydrated) but not dead. That would be the 2nd day without water.

[path12]

I will ask again for Jeheinz and I, will a security guard please guard the cargo hold. I haven't seen any confirmations about this or not.

You shouldn't get confirmations for something like that in thread. Security moves should be secret so the spawn don't know for sure who will be where.

[PackerFanatic]

On the plus side, we found all the slaves!

[path12]

I've only been lynched as a villager once - I don't think I'm that easy a get, even if I'm an easy initial vote.

Yeah, I felt kinda bad about leading that charge. But just kinda. ;)

[Danny]

Some people shouldn't be allowed to do math in these threads :)

lol, you know I was kidding :).

[Danny]

You shouldn't get confirmations for something like that in thread. Security moves should be secret so the spawn don't know for sure who will be where.

ok