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Old 04-06-2013, 08:06 PM   #153
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
I played one game last night before sleep took over but I'll give you a rundown just from that small sample:

Lebron started the game with a reverse windmill dunk (an animation I did not know was in the game) lol. I knew I was in for bull$#!t and I was not disappointed.

80 of their 110 points came from the paint but here is something weird, only 16 points came from fastbreak with run plays at 0.

That is technically wrong. There were a bunch of instances where they pushed the ball up court than they would do that flinch/jerk thingy like they were going to their positions to start a play and literally a second later a shot would go up. That to me is still a fastbreak but the game does not see it that way.

I was using the Spurs and kept my turnovers to 11 only 6 came from steals. I was really mindful of bad passes because every steal and every defensive rebound was a pants on fire jailbreak for the Heat. The only time they didn't push hard after a miss was when I was "clearly" back on defense.

With everyone's drive the lane tendency at 100 you can plainly see when a play breaks down. It's like the entire team is being summoned to the paint. If Dwayne Wade even looks like he's about to beat his man then Lebron goes for an Ally-oop.

Pure Chaos.

Ill get back to it tonight.
I just finished watching a CPU match with the Heat vs. the Heat. The "visiting" team was set to Coach mode so I could see plays as they were called.

There were several drive and kicks to players (mainly Battier and Ray Ray) spotting up in the corner. Lebron did this mostly but I also saw Chalmers and Wade do it a few times.

Battier shot A LOT in Freelance/Fast Break situations.

Most of the Close Shots were Post Shots from called plays.

Most plays called were PNR/Fades.

If the big 3 were off the floor, nearly all plays called were 3's.

Both teams ran FB/FL through the beginning of called plays a lot, especially after missed shots or turnovers.

There were only a few backdoor cuts (cuts along the baseline from the weakside).

There were cuts to the basket about 1/4 the time in FL and FB opportunities that were not intelligent. IE, Battier would run from the elbow straight to the basket, stand there for a few seconds, then spot up somewhere along the 3PT line.

So far, that's what I have. I don't know if the Drive the Lane tendency affects players while dribbling. I'm starting to think it determines if a player stands still or cuts to the basket when playing off-ball. There were a lot of PIP, about 60%, but I chalk that up to a high shooting percentage and not simply forcing the ball into the paint.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:36 PM   #154
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimm44
I just finished watching a CPU match with the Heat vs. the Heat. The "visiting" team was set to Coach mode so I could see plays as they were called.

There were several drive and kicks to players (mainly Battier and Ray Ray) spotting up in the corner. Lebron did this mostly but I also saw Chalmers and Wade do it a few times.

Battier shot A LOT in Freelance/Fast Break situations.

Most of the Close Shots were Post Shots from called plays.

Most plays called were PNR/Fades.

If the big 3 were off the floor, nearly all plays called were 3's.

Both teams ran FB/FL through the beginning of called plays a lot, especially after missed shots or turnovers.

There were only a few backdoor cuts (cuts along the baseline from the weakside).

There were cuts to the basket about 1/4 the time in FL and FB opportunities that were not intelligent. IE, Battier would run from the elbow straight to the basket, stand there for a few seconds, then spot up somewhere along the 3PT line.

So far, that's what I have. I don't know if the Drive the Lane tendency affects players while dribbling. I'm starting to think it determines if a player stands still or cuts to the basket when playing off-ball. There were a lot of PIP, about 60%, but I chalk that up to a high shooting percentage and not simply forcing the ball into the paint.
Is this with Run Plays at 100?

Batteir cutting to the lane and taking a majority of the freelance/fastbreak shots . . . What is that? Does he have a high give and go as his freelance tendency. I really expected very little to no cutting in the half court. (Especially once a play broke down)

And points in the paint made up 60%!?!?! Tell me the majority of that is fastbreaks.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:46 PM   #155
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

I'm gonna have to disagree with you about drive the lane being strictly an off ball tendency. (Though I am not married to any of my opinions)
With drive the lane at 100 I noticed every ballhandler try to force their way. Dwayne especially, if he was at the top of the key when the play stopped running he flipped the switch and went straight for the hoop. I think there is definetly a correlation between drive the lane and inside shot tendency in that regard.

While Ray Allen was aggressive if given space he shot a 3.

Oh the Heat went 1 for 3 from 3pt land, I forgot to mention that. How many 3pt Field goal attempts did your game produce?

Last edited by bigtreydawg; 04-06-2013 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:24 PM   #156
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
Is this with Run Plays at 100?

Batteir cutting to the lane and taking a majority of the freelance/fastbreak shots . . . What is that? Does he have a high give and go as his freelance tendency. I really expected very little to no cutting in the half court. (Especially once a play broke down)

And points in the paint made up 60%!?!?! Tell me the majority of that is fastbreaks.
They only had 12 legit FB points. There were a lot of possessions where the AI appeared to "switch" from FB mode to either FL mode or call a play but the ball handler would almost immediately take a shot. You saw some of this, also. If I was scoring, I would say closer to 30 FB points, but I score those differently than 2k.

Also, EVERY player in my roster has 0 in Give/Go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
I'm gonna have to disagree with you about drive the lane being strictly an off ball tendency. (Though I am not married to any of my opinions)
With drive the lane at 100 I noticed every ballhandler try to force their way. Dwayne especially, if he was at the top of the key when the play stopped running he flipped the switch and went straight for the hoop. I think there is definetly a correlation between drive the lane and inside shot tendency in that regard.

While Ray Allen was aggressive if given space he shot a 3.

Oh the Heat went 1 for 3 from 3pt land, I forgot to mention that. How many 3pt Field goal attempts did your game produce?
I think they had 22. Also, I'm not saying anything conclusive at this point and everything is simply assumption, albeit some educated assumption. That's why we're doing this, right? To figure out conclusively what does what?

EDIT: Watching another Heat/Heat CPU game. 1st quarter, these guys are coming out like gangbusters. In the first 9 minutes, both teams are shooting 60%, both have taken 1 3PT, both have 12 PIP a piece with 5 combined dunks and 4 FB points. Almost every play call has been low post and both teams, out of 30 shots, have taken 8 shots that were not in the paint. Ridiculous.
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Last edited by slimm44; 04-06-2013 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:08 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimm44
They only had 12 legit FB points. There were a lot of possessions where the AI appeared to "switch" from FB mode to either FL mode or call a play but the ball handler would almost immediately take a shot. You saw some of this, also. If I was scoring, I would say closer to 30 FB points, but I score those differently than 2k.

Also, EVERY player in my roster has 0 in Give/Go.



I think they had 22. Also, I'm not saying anything conclusive at this point and everything is simply assumption, albeit some educated assumption. That's why we're doing this, right? To figure out conclusively what does what?
In my mind no other tendency in 2k creates more confusion and yet seems to have such a huge impact on gameplay than the drive the basket vs spot up and pull up vs penetrate. If you guys can nail this down I will be forever grateful. It makes logical sense that drive the basket would be off ball, considering that spot up is supposed to be its opposite and is obviously off ball. I have a hard time believing that drive the basket covers so many areas as been suggested earlier in the thread. I am not a programmer by any means, but could the code on one tendency would be so vastly read by the AI? Also..the default bigs are generally given a 10 in drive the basket, which would make you wonder how that would affect rolling to the basket on PNR.

The thing about 2k that is so frustrating is that just because they define a profile or tendency a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean it plays out in real games. Not to derail the thread, but coach profiles need to be defined as a scale. Every profile should have a risk reward component, but that is still unclear to me. If you raise crash the boards great, but does that mean less guys get back on D? Not so sure. Sorry I got off on a rant here! Lol... Enjoying the discussion btw...


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Old 04-06-2013, 10:30 PM   #158
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

It such a relief that you don't get mad at disagreements.

I don't want to draw too many conclusions from one run threw but I think we can definetively say that fastbreak is something that can not be edited from player tendencies.

We have polar opposite levels of aggression (still working on defining DTL) but we ended up with virtually the same fastbreak points.

To me that means that fastbreak points can only be tinkered with through the fastbreak slider and offensive tempo.

What reasons do you have for Shane's performance? Maybe he was just feeling it. Is there a slider for "feeling it" lol
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:38 PM   #159
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by slimm44
EDIT: Watching another Heat/Heat CPU game. 1st quarter, these guys are coming out like gangbusters. In the first 9 minutes, both teams are shooting 60%, both have taken 1 3PT, both have 12 PIP a piece with 5 combined dunks and 4 FB points. Almost every play call has been low post and both teams, out of 30 shots, have taken 8 shots that were not in the paint. Ridiculous.
WHAT!?!? .. . LOL what on earth is going on?

This game, man.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:41 PM   #160
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
It such a relief that you don't get mad at disagreements.

I don't want to draw too many conclusions from one run threw but I think we can definetively say that fastbreak is something that can not be edited from player tendencies.

We have polar opposite levels of aggression (still working on defining DTL) but we ended up with virtually the same fastbreak points.

To me that means that fastbreak points can only be tinkered with through the fastbreak slider and offensive tempo.

What reasons do you have for Shane's performance? Maybe he was just feeling it. Is there a slider for "feeling it" lol
I don't know of any player tendencies that directly effect FB opportunities. I do think that a combination of the FB/Offensive Tempo/Run Plays, and to some extent, Quickness Slider effect FB opportunities. Personally, I think that the Quickness Slider needs to be at 0, which is where I have it in my slider set. One of the things that the Quickness Slider effects is a player's jog speed, which is REALLY fast in the game. With this at 0, it really gives contrast between Quickness (jogging/walking among other things) and Speed (sprint).

I'm not sure about Shane. I the current game (4th quarter, 9 minutes left), he has taken a combined 17 shots in 47 minutes (5-5 on one team and 4-12 on the other), and 9 of those shots have been 3's. He spots up a lot on the permimeter and has a high 3PT tendency, so those are both reasons why, I'd guess.

Man, I ain't sweatin' disagreements. No theory is good unless it can withstand testing.
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